Forum:TC:Ambiguous species categories

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This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or, if the page was deleted, in the Senate Hall rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was No consensus for Category:Enslaved species; Delete Category:Spacefaring species and Category:Species with long lifespans. Imperators II(Talk) 09:08, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Here are categories that have ambiguous and arbitrary criteria for inclusion, sorting species in terms of whether they were enslaved, used interstellar transports, or had long lifespans. I've split this into a three votes:

Enslaved species

Delete

  1. How do you tell that one particular species has been enslaved as a whole or not? Is there use for a category that defines a species by whether its members were collectively enslaved at some point? Any individual could be enslaved regardless of their species, and the Infinite Empire took control of many entire worlds and enslaved everyone on them, rather than targeting specific species.

    And what does this mean for every species not included in the category? We see enslaved humans in Star Wars a lot yet they're not included. The relevant information should be highlighted on the articles for that empire, slavery, and individual species' pages, of course. OOM 224 (he/him) 20:57, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 22:23, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. I've always thought this is is a bizarre category with an arbitrarily-defined scope. Fan26 (Talk) 23:40, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 00:24, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
  5. I feel like this category is being used incorrectly, as the canon versions of Pau'an, Ugnaught, and Wookiee are categorized as 'enslaved species' despite numerous cases of individuals from the trio not being enslaved or only enslaved for a period of time that ended. I'm unaware of the Legends precedent, as said in the comments below perhaps some species are explicitly defined to be enslaved as an entire species. The way the category is being used currently doesn't reflect that the entire species must be enslaved for it to qualify and seems to be arbitrarily labeling species if they've had a history of some enslavement; if it were used only for species that were enslaved entirely I could see keeping it, but it's not.—spookywillowwtalk 18:08, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
    • Wouldn't it be more productive to just remove thoses cases from the category then, instead of outright deleting the category and then recreating it at presumably the same title? Imperators II(Talk) 08:30, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
      • I'm unsure if they would get actively removed from the category; its a lot of species to verify/someone to want to verify. Between them potentially staying or just deleting, I'd still personally prefer the latter.—spookywillowwtalk 14:47, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
  6. Lewisr (talk) 18:10, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
  7. Per comments below. Asithol (talk) 19:27, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
  8. I don't think we should put individuals in the enslaved individuals category who were only slaves for a very short period of time, but that's a different can of worms. For now I'll just say that I buy into the time argument. VergenceScatter (talk) 00:24, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
  9. NanoLuukeCloning Facility 15:39, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
  10. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 23:25, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Keep

  1. Those are just species that are explicitly said to be enslaved. Yes, Infinite Empire conquered other planets, but those planets just don't have sources that say their whole native species were enslaved --Goodmind (talk) 22:02, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Per Goodmind, if there are sources that explicitly say a species was enslaved, then I think having a category for that is fine. Rsand 30 (talk) 23:33, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. <-Omicron(Leave a message at the BEEP!) 16:18, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 13:47, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Comments

  • shrug some sources do explicitly talk about species enslaved by, say, the Hutts. Imperators II(Talk) 21:45, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
    • But even then, those sources are talking about only some period of galactic history. Those species didn't start out enslaved from the moment they came into being. Wookieepedia covers the entirety of galactic history, which includes times those species were free. Asithol (talk) 19:27, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
      • "the entirety of galactic history, which includes times those species were free" Very much per Asithol here Fan26 (Talk) 15:21, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
        • Truth be told, I'm not seeing how the case of this category (at least for these abovementioned explicitly specified cases) is much different than our usage of the individuals one. This also includes the time argument. Imperators II(Talk) 16:32, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Category:Spacefaring species (history - links - logs - delete - protect)

Delete

  1. Similarly, we see loads of species doing space travel and living into old age all the time. The spacefaring species' category text says it's for those who "had interstellar societies; those who built or used faster-than-light transportation as a whole community." How do you define "as a whole community"? Is every species that you see on more than one world an "interstellar society"? Category:Unidentified sentient species alone has 245 pages so you can well imagine the number of species we're dealing with. Also, if we want a category for species that developed hyperspace travel independently, then a new one should be made specifying that, rather than a general one for "spacefaring species."OOM 224 (he/him) 20:57, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Agreed, until such time it gets re-defined, both in writing and its contents, as for those species that independently created FTL travel, it should go. Imperators II(Talk) 22:15, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 22:24, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. Rsand 30 (talk) 23:33, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
  5. Fan26 (Talk) 23:40, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
  6. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 00:24, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
  7. Lewisr (talk) 01:48, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
  8. <-Omicron(Leave a message at the BEEP!) 16:18, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
  9. JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 17:07, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
  10. —spookywillowwtalk 18:08, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
  11. Asithol (talk) 19:27, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
  12. JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 13:47, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
  13. VergenceScatter (talk) 00:24, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
  14. NanoLuukeCloning Facility 15:39, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
  15. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 23:25, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Keep

Comments

Category:Species with long lifespans (history - links - logs - delete - protect)

Delete

  1. And what makes a species "long-living"? Where should the line be drawn if it's relative to humans? Even then, we have the human Vima-Da-Boda (a Jedi) being over 200 years old when we see her in Legends, while in canon we keep having members of pre-existing species who appear in the prequel era confirmed as long-living due to appearing in the High Republic era, meaning at least some of them (but we don't know if it's inherent to the species) could live for hundreds of years. OOM 224 (he/him) 20:57, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Unnecessarily arbitrary. Imperators II(Talk) 21:45, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 22:24, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. The High Republic has featured more and more long-lived species, category seems uneccesary imo. Rsand 30 (talk) 23:33, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
  5. Fan26 (Talk) 23:41, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
  6. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 00:24, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
  7. Lewisr (talk) 01:48, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
  8. Bonzane10 Sabine Starbird (holonet) 02:17, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
  9. <-Omicron(Leave a message at the BEEP!) 16:18, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
  10. JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 17:07, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
  11. —spookywillowwtalk 18:08, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
  12. Asithol (talk) 19:27, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
  13. JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 13:47, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
  14. Weirdly arbitrary VergenceScatter (talk) 00:24, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
  15. NanoLuukeCloning Facility 15:39, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
  16. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 23:25, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Keep

Comments