Rearing its head once again, it's everyone's favourite topic: a non-canon tab. After recent discussion on Discord specifically about the complex continuity situation of the Star Wars: Jedi Academy, I think it's a good time to re-examine how we cover non-canon material since I don't think our current method is sufficient for certain pieces of media and in fact we could likely improve how we cover all of it.
Current coverage issues
Currently, all non-canon media is associated with either the canon or Legends continuity as "non-canon canon" or "non-canon Legends" and then content from it is covered either in the Behind the Scenes sections of articles in that continuity if the subject already exists (see Vizam) or on entirely non-canon pages covering subjects that only exist in non-canon (e.g. The Ronin). There is logic to this, as most non-canon sources do use one of the two continuities as a basis and draw on material exclusive to it, but it is confusing for things that aren't based on either timeline like the Ronin since calling them canon or Legends isn't really meaningful on any level bar our need to put them on one page or another under the current system.
The non-canon media it's most problematic for are narratives like the aforementioned Jedi Academy series or several of the LEGO shows that maintain a continuous story through a number of releases that cross from what we identify as Legends into what we identify as canon. In the Jedi Academy series for example, the first book came out in 2013 before there even was the current canon continuity and so is linked to Legends. The latest book however, released in 2020, pulls heavily from elements of the current canon, including locations like Jedha, and so is treated as canon. However, these two books are part of one ongoing narrative with the same characters and other elements, but under our current system of non-canon coverage, that story would have to be split between coverage on the pages in the two different continuities, resulting in characters created for the series with their own articles like Mar potentially even having a separate canon and Legends tab with story split between them. This is obviously a poor way to present this to readers and is purely a choice of our own, without anything from Lucasfilm that these stories are split between continuities or even have links to canon or Legends in a meaningful way at all.
Why a new tab?
Our primary goal in this discussion should be to resolve the issue of how these split narratives are covered, but I think the best solution is one that also pulls in all of our non-canon coverage: a catch-all non-canon tab that sits separate to the canon or Legends tab and covers all non-canon material on a subject split up by the different series or individual pieces of media. This keeps all these "cross-continuities" stories together and also prevents us having to make somewhat arbitrary associations between non-canon media and one of the continuities: the Ronin is no more canon than he is Legends, and labeling it as either is confusing to readers.
To be clear, I am not a fan of adding more tabs in general and would strongly oppose any system with more than three for a wide variety of mostly navigational reasons, but this will hopefully cover all additional tab needs in one place and prevent the need for further separate continuity tabs. This also includes the existing LEGO tabs which I'd propose be rolled into the new non-canon tab with other non-LEGO content rather then existing as the one exception like they currently do. The benefits of these tabs were already discussed when they were voted in, and we should expand that to other non-canon areas.
Tab formatting types
There are three major categories of non-canon content coverage:
1: Existing subjects from the canon or Legends continuity appearing in a non-canon story, generally showing them to have the same backstory as in the canonical continuity, Yoda is probably still grandmaster of the Jedi. Currently just covered in the BTS from a OOU perspective e.g. Vizam
2: New subjects that appear exclusively in a piece of non-canon media. These exist as a standalone entirely non-canon page written in an IU style matching those of canon or Legends subject pages: e.g they have a non-canon infobox like on the Ronin.
3: Subjects that originate in a non-canon story but then later appear in a canon or Legends piece of media. For LEGO subjects specifically, these get the rare LEGO tab. For everything else it'd be covered in the BTS.
For the first set I'd propose effectively just moving across current content style as is to the non-canon tab. e.g. Vizam's non-canon tab would look something like this (references removed to avoid formatting issues here):
Star Wars: Visions — "Tatooine Rhapsody"
Vizam transported members of the band Star Waver on a skiff to their performance in the Mos Espa Grand Arena.
Vizam appears in "Tatooine Rhapsody," an ambiguously canon short film in the Star Wars: Visions series released on September 22, 2021. In the short, the band Star Waver make a deal to perform for Jabba in the Mos Espa Grand Arena before he executes one of their members, Geezer Odajion. Vizam pilots a Bantha-II cargo skiff to the arena's stage carrying two Gamorreans and three members of the band; Odajion, K-344, and V-5.
He then moves the vehicle away from the stage while the song "Galactic Dreamer" is performed, but returns at the end of song transporting the armed guards Vedain, Kithaba, and Rintel Aren. Star Waver's lead singer, Jay, then asks Jabba to spare Odajion and instead become the band's first sponsor. After the crowd demand an encore, the guards on Vizam's skiff aim their blasters at the band, but then shoulder them on Jabba's signal to spare Odajion. Vizam then pilots the skiff away, allowing the band to perform again.
LEGO Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga
Vizam (left) is grabbed by the sarlacc in LEGO Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga.
In the non-canon 2022 video game LEGO Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga, Vizam appears in the mission "The Copa-Khetanna." He is first shown standing with a vibro-ax on the skiff carrying Skywalker and the other prisoners above the sarlacc pit. One of the sarlacc's tentacles then taps Vizam's shoulder, distracting him so that it can grab the Nikto and drag him screaming into the sarlacc pit as C-3PO speaks to the prisoners. The Vizam model is then used as one of several repeated generic enemy model onboard the Khetanna.
Tab formatting types cont.
Exact formatting in terms of some kind of top template/intro, categories, and whether the links should lead to canon, Legends, or other non-canon tabs can be hashed out once a general concept is agreed upon, but the main thing is that I don't think a non-canon tab for someone like Vizam, whose main context is provided on the other two tabs, needs to be written in an IU style starting "Vizam was a Nikto who..." etc.
For non-canon exclusive subjects, I'd suggest we leave the pages pretty much exactly as they are bar removing the references to non-canon canon and such. They'll generally be easy to identify since they won't have any other tabs. This is how readers will want to see the primary page for a subject presented.
Finally, for the last set I'd probably propose we have wording suggesting that if a subject originates in non-canon but does end up having a canon or Legends page, then the non-canon tab should maintain the IU article formatting at the top of the page but beneath the BTS list any additional non-canon appearances in sections similar to the Vizam example. I'm not currently aware of any non-canon subjects who appear in other non-canon works outside of a joined narrative (e.g. if R0-GR showed up in a Visions story or Jedi Academy) so hopefully these will mostly stay as they are as well for the LEGO tabs that exist, but best to have a plan for if it occurs in future.
Conclusion
I understand that there's plenty to hash out here on a variety of specifics, but I'd encourage everyone to focus here on discussing the high level portions of the topics I've covered, how and where we'd word policy on them, and if there's scenarios I've not included that might need a separate style of coverage. Thinks like where to link to or where we link to them on the other two tabs are only worth getting into once we have a consensus that it's worth having a non-canon tab at all. Ayrehead02 (talk) 22:48, 12 May 2025 (UTC)
Discussion
- Ayre summarizes my thoughts on things far more succinctly than I probably could have and an overarching "Non-canon" tab has my full support. However, if consensus does veer against having all non-canon content on the tab, I would at least urge consideration for the examples with considerable overlap like Jedi Academy and the LEGO stuff, as Ayre explained, as these are a bit to complex to really cleanly file under a single continuity. Per Discord discussion, I would also like to mention that I don't think anything that is functionally (or officially) de-canonized via retcon/a newer canon story simply ignoring it would be eligible for coverage on this tab. Those stories were originally intended as canon information, and even if that's changed the intent is still what matters for those sources, imo. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 23:26, 12 May 2025 (UTC)
- Also, while a visible tab (a la the Canon/Legends) tab would be preferable in my opinion so readers are easily able to tell we cover the content on another page, I am also aware this might not be super feasible on mobile, which is definitely a concern. Another solution would perhaps be using {{SeeAlso}} in the same manner we currently do for LEGO articles, but placing it at the top of the "Non-canon appearances" sub-section of the Appearances section. Just food for thought. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 23:35, 12 May 2025 (UTC)
- I think it is important to note that many elements of the stories the Ronin appears in draw from canon-exclusive material, such as First Order stormtooper armor and Anzellans, so while he is obviously non-canon, it is inaccurate to say that assigning content from his stories to a continuity is meaningless. CometSmudge (talk) 00:23, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- To add to this, if we arbitrarily decide that non-canon material is not tied to a certain continuity, despite evidence proving otherwise, how do we cite information not present in that media? For example, can I no longer use a canon encyclopedia to say that Tattooine is a planet? That would be ridiculous. And what about dates? How can we cite the date of something without using a canon source like Timelines? Pretending that non-canon material is not linked to a certain continuity will only cause more problems and confusion, as it will result in us either leaving out necessary contextual information, or applying a double-standard where we (falsely) imply that something is not linked to canon while also using canon material in it. CometSmudge (talk) 05:32, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- Ah completely blanked on the First Order stormtrooper armor from the Ronin stuff, was more thinking that it seems like a completely separate timeline rather then something "splitting off" from the canon timeline at a certain point like Infinities stories. I'm by no means suggesting that all non-canon works have no link to a continuity, the benefit of not having to associate is primarily for those that don't clearly link to either and would no longer have to be forced to have an arbitrary association based on association that might confuse readers. We could easily list a linked continuity at the top of each piece of media's section where appropriate and I've no issue with using references from that continuity since if there's overlapping dates there's clearly a connection. Ayrehead02 (talk) 07:55, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- To add to this, if we arbitrarily decide that non-canon material is not tied to a certain continuity, despite evidence proving otherwise, how do we cite information not present in that media? For example, can I no longer use a canon encyclopedia to say that Tattooine is a planet? That would be ridiculous. And what about dates? How can we cite the date of something without using a canon source like Timelines? Pretending that non-canon material is not linked to a certain continuity will only cause more problems and confusion, as it will result in us either leaving out necessary contextual information, or applying a double-standard where we (falsely) imply that something is not linked to canon while also using canon material in it. CometSmudge (talk) 05:32, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- I am strongly in favor of the Non-Canon tab! - Brandon Rhea(talk)(he/him/his) 01:03, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- I would support tabs only for subjects where it is beneficial to the reader to have their entire story in one place when it would otherwise be separated, like Jedi Academy and Lego. I am very strongly against it otherwise and I really don't see any benefits, only downsides. Readers will be less likely to read this information, and editors will be less likely to add it now that it isn't required for status articles. Also, if the context of the subject is provided on a separate page, the reader will need to click over to the main tab if they want context for it. Why not just keep everything in one page and make it easier? This seems more like a way for editors to get out of having to include the non-canon information they're not interested in writing about on their articles than something that will truly benefit readers. CometSmudge (talk) 01:06, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- I'm all for the non-canon tab personally. I think the worry around readers being less likely to read the non-canon coverage is not something we can really control imo. It all comes down to their own intent and what they are actively searching for. Bonzane10
04:13, 13 May 2025 (UTC) - I very much support this. ThePedantry (talk) 04:22, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- Hmmm. It might be that I'm tired, but I'm confused. Right now, the LEGO subpages are for characters/concepts that originate in the LEGO continuity but are brought over to canon, right? So are we suggesting adding tabs for characters that originate in canon/legends that are referenced in the non-canon content? I... kind of lost my own point here while typing this but oh well. Cade Calrayn 04:27, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- The general idea would be anything appearing in a non-canon source that needs coverage would have that coverage on a non-canon tab no matter where the subject originated, hence the splitting out of Vizam's BTS. Ayrehead02 (talk) 07:55, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- Don't have as much of a problem with one non-canon tab; not a huge fan, but not the end of the world. Sharply disagree on even cursory consideration of any more than one more tab, however; SEO, other very valid issues that keep getting brought up. Only saying this because Visons tab and etc. keep popping up, ie, "as many tabs as possible!!" and it's just not sustainable.—spookywillowwtalk 04:54, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- Also very much my stance. Ayrehead02 (talk) 07:55, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- Support a dedicated non-canon tab in full for things like Jedi Academy and LEGO material that can't be separated, but I'm more neutral on other BTS information. If we are having a non-canon tab, I do think it would be beneficial to let readers (and editors) quickly know that "The Ronin" is treated as "canon" for the purposes of links and background information that things like Lusaanda are treated as "Legends" however this approach does not fully cover all circumstances, for example Mar does not really fit into either category. ThrawnChiss7 Assembly Cupola 18:31, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, as one of the people who initiated this iteration of this ongoing discussion, I must insist that we come up with a solution to present information relevant to the abovementioned continuity-crossing media on a single page so as not to do a disservice to our readers. I'm cautiously optimistic that we can do that while also pulling off a separate tab for all non-canon information, but yeah, a lot of things to hash out for that scenario. For example, what happens when the non-canon information on a Canon or Legends counterpart is extremely short and/or entirely redundant to the canonical in-universe information? What happens when there's a lot of info, but only from one non-canon work (or one series of non-canon works) among several? Or, in the cases like Jedi Academy or LEGO, even if we present the info on those subjects on a single page, what do we have the links in the text point to (perhaps we introduce different linking requirements for this tab?)? Do we list the non-canon media on articles anymore? Imperators II(Talk) 20:32, 12 June 2025 (UTC)
- Found what I think is a nice illustrative example for why we must come up with a fundamentally different way to present non-canon information: the article on beebleberry ice cream. It currently relays the information about the ice cream as presented in the LEGO TFA video game. The catch? That ice cream is also featured in the Jedi Academy series. :) So how do we even go about documenting that if we don't have something like a differently-set-up tab for non-canon information lol? Imperators II(Talk) 20:22, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
