Forum:SH:Card games in Sources

This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments or questions on this topic should be made in a new Senate Hall page rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. —spookywillowwtalk 02:47, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
Forums > Senate Hall archive > SH:Card games in Sources

Alright, so this is something that was originally suggested by Plume and Dani sometime back, but with the advent of my Sources megaproject, it's something I'd actively like to implement.

Right now, we list all individual cards from various card games as separate rows in an article's Sources, which leads to massive Sources bloat (IMO), and also it complicates my efforts to actively generate a list of all possible sources. This has always bothered me, and clearly it's bothered a few others, so I'd like to first mention some points:

  • Individual cards are but a piece of a piece of media; they cannot (to my knowledge) in most cases be acquired individually, and are simply part of the various packs. This isn't true of everything (Force Collection and Card Trader of course) but by and large, it's true.
  • We do not list every individual quest and component element in SWTOR in Appearances; we simply list the game, and use {{TORcite}} for specific references. Same goes for {{CSWECite}}, with a few exceptions.
  • We don't list page numbers for reference books, novels, or anything similar.

So, with those out of the way, I'll say that I wholeheartedly agree with doing something about the way we list cards; the current way is unpleasant, unwieldly, inconsistent, and frankly unhelpful. Which is why I'm here to present several options, developed by various users over the last 10 years (copied from Dani's workbench):

(PLEASE NOTE: this will NOT affect references; info should still be referenced to the specific cards for accuracy)

Contents

  • 1 Options
    • 1.1 Option 1 - List sets only
    • 1.2 Option 2 - List sets, but include cards in multi-parameters
    • 1.3 Option 3 - Collapsable Boxes
  • 2 Discussion

Options

Option 1 - List sets only

Plume suggested we link to set pages instead of individual cards. This would help cut bloat for super star characters like Luke Skywalker. I've provided an example of how current Kazuda Xiono's 25 (not all cards) cards would be cut down to 11 sets.

  1. Star Wars: Card Trader Set: Star Wars: Resistance - Pilot Badges
  2. Star Wars: Card Trader Set: SWCT 4th Anniversary
  3. Star Wars: Card Trader Set: Galactic Heritage
  4. Star Wars: Card Trader Set: 2020 Base Series
  5. Star Wars: Card Trader Set: Ugly Holiday Sweater Series
  6. Star Wars: Card Trader Set: Heroes Weekly
  7. Star Wars: Card Trader Set: Stellar Signatures
  8. Star Wars: Card Trader Set: Dual Perceptions - Resistance
  9. Star Wars: Card Trader Set: In Disguise
  10. Star Wars: Card Trader Set: Chrome Perspectives
  11. Star Wars: Card Trader Set: Fractured - Star Wars: Resistance

Option 2 - List sets, but include cards in multi-parameters

This option would be the same as above, but each set listing item would also include the cards in a single line, using card#= and link#= parameters. The end result would be something like this:

  1. Star Wars: Card Trader Set: Star Wars: Resistance - Pilot Badges (Cards: Kazuda Xiono - Star Wars: Resistance - Pilot Badges)

Option 3 - Collapsable Boxes

This option, suggested back in 2015 but never implemented, would be to add collapsable boxes around each set. This would of course be templated and made nicer format-wise.

  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader Set: Galactic Heritage
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader Set: 2020 Base Series
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader Set: Dual Perceptions - Resistance
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader Set: In Disguise
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader Set: Chrome Perspectives
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!
  • StarWars.com Star Wars Resistance, Anime-Inspired Series, Set for Fall Debut on StarWars.com (backup link) (First mentioned)
  • SWYT-Logo Solo Director Ron Howard Stops By to Give Star Wars the Arrested Development Treatment on the official Star Wars YouTube channel (backup link)
  • Star Wars Insider 182
  • StarWars.com Star Wars Resistance Trailer Revealed on StarWars.com (backup link)
  • SWYT-Logo The Aquabats Sing Star Wars Songs, New Solo Novelization Excerpts, and More! on the official Star Wars YouTube channel (backup link)
  • StarWars.com Meet Team Fireball on StarWars.com (backup link)
  • StarWars.com Meet the Aces in a new Star Wars Resistance Featurette on StarWars.com (backup link)
  • SWYT-Logo The Aces | Star Wars Resistance on the official Star Wars YouTube channel (backup link)
  • StarWars.com Meet the Cast of Star Wars Resistance on The Star Wars Show on StarWars.com (backup link)
  • SWYT-Logo Vader Immortal First Look and Meet the Cast of Star Wars Resistance on the official Star Wars YouTube channel (backup link)
  • SWYT-Logo Extended Sneak Peek | Star Wars Resistance on the official Star Wars YouTube channel (backup link)
  • StarWars.com Strap in for a new Star Wars Resistance Sneak Peek on StarWars.com (backup link) Phasma
  • StarWars.com Welcome to the Resistance: Meet Christopher Sean, the voice of Kaz on StarWars.com (backup link)
  • StarWars.com Welcome to the Resistance: Meet Suzie McGrath, the voice of Tam on StarWars.com (backup link)
  • SWYT-Logo Behind the Mask of Vader Immortal and a Sneak Peek at Star Wars Resistance on the official Star Wars YouTube channel (backup link)
  • StarWars.com Welcome to the Resistance: Meet Josh Brenner, the voice of Neeku on StarWars.com (backup link)
  • StarWars.com NYCC 2018: Hasbro Joins the Resistance on StarWars.com (backup link)
  • StarWars.com NYCC 2018: The Fireball Lands at the Javits Center on StarWars.com (backup link)
  • StarWars.com The Recruit Episode Guide on StarWars.com (backup link)
  • SWYT-Logo ILMxLAB Hatches Project Porg and More on The Mandalorian on the official Star Wars YouTube channel (backup link)
  • SWYT-Logo George Lucas visits The Mandalorian and Justin Ridge talks Resistance on the official Star Wars YouTube channel (backup link)
  • Star Wars: Women of the Galaxy
  • HasbroInverted Star Wars Resistance (Pack: Kaz Xiono) (backup link)
  • SWInsider "Irresistible: The Voices of Star Wars Resistance" — Star Wars Insider 186
  • Star Wars Resistance: Meet the Pilots
  • StarWars.com Mission Briefing: Star Wars Resistance Intel to Prepare You for the Season Finale on StarWars.com (backup link)

UPDATE: I've tweaked some CSS to mock up the end result of what I'm going for, and split the above list into sets as well: Card example

Aaand that's it. Was ready to go to CT already but Dani correctly diverted me to the SH instead, which is good cause I noticed the scrollbox option. My personal preference is options 1 or 2; I like the idea of 2 but it would also get very unwieldy very fast for articles with many cards. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 16:49, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

  • Just to be clear, I started that workbench to specifically discuss Topps's SWCT but if I understand correctly, you're meaning to expand this discussion to all card game media, correct? I'm pro exploring that. For a good reference, Battle of Hoth is a good example of a subject with not only has multiple Card Games but multiple expansions within those games. NBDani TeamFireballLogo-Collider(they/them)Yeager's Repairs 17:16, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
  • Of the options presented, I'm most in favor of Option 3, Collapsable Boxes. For SWCT I think it should all be under one box, but I'm curious what others think about other card games: should we list the game itself as a collapsable box, or each individual expansion. I'm also curious if there should be a set number that justifies the box. I don't think the box should be used if there's only one card, but what's the sweet number that justifies it's usage? Also if we go the box route, I think we should define how to sort the cards inside. AFAIK when 2 sources have the same release date, we sort them by no established means. Cards from the same expansion will have the same release date, so it's a problem we should be aware of going into this. I think we should sort by Card # when present, but alphabetical otherwise. NBDani TeamFireballLogo-Collider(they/them)Yeager's Repairs 17:16, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
  • Another option presented by Ayre on Discord yesterday was to list the SWCT app, and then detail individual card in the Indexpage. Just tossing into the discussion. NBDani TeamFireballLogo-Collider(they/them)Yeager's Repairs 17:16, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
    • Seeing how index pages are optional (and should stay so imo) from the perspective of reviewing/verifying status articles I think we should still strive to have cards on the page proper. Imperators II(Talk) 17:28, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
  • Can we have a more, um, proper example for Option 2? Because from what I read the idea is to do away with the idea of listing just one card per line, but the example is doing precisely that. Imperators II(Talk) 17:28, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
    • Galactic Heritage is what you want. Here's it with 7 Kazuda cards. Star Wars: Card Trader Set: Galactic Heritage (Cards: Kazuda Xiono & Gorg, Kaz in Stormtrooper Disguise, Kazuda Xiono, Kazuda Xiono 2, Kazuda Xiono 3, Kazuda Xiono 4, Kazuda Xiono 5) —Unsigned comment by NBDani (talk • contribs)
      • OK cool, thanks. I think Option 2 is the best bet - it also stylistically connects with how we're doing magazine citation templates with departments and articles and such. Imperators II(Talk) 17:42, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
  • Does this apply to all card games? How would options 1 and 2 work with Force Collection? ThrawnChiss7 Mitth symbol Assembly Cupola 17:30, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
  • One thing we need to remember is that we cannot prevent bloat of any kind. Prominent subjects are going to be featured in countless sources regardless, and we shouldn't have to come up with ways to consolidate various types of sources for presentation reasons. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 18:16, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
    • There's a difference between removing information and simply displaying it in a more efficient way, which is what options 2-3 do. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 18:26, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
    • There are the individual card sets where a subject could be only pictured in one card, and name mentioned in another, etc. This is one example of such. Card set in question is CCG and Death Star II Limited. Hanzo Hasashi (talk) 18:52, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
  • As the founder of WP:SWCT, I believe this is a huge, but necessary step to make. Option 1 IMO isn't very specific. Say a set has a large amount of cards, by simply listing the set it makes it easier for information to be verified, as one may need to check through every card of the set. For me, Option 2 is the most attractive, as it allows for easy verification and reader simplicity (and is similar to some templates we already have such as {{HasbroCite}}). I'm pretty neutral on Option 3. AmazinglyCool Nightsisters symbol - JFO (talk) 21:17, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
  • Leaning towards option 2, I feel like that displays it best. Supreme Emperor Holocomm 04:56, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
  • Would we alter the application of collapsible boxes for subjects that only appear in 1 or 2 cards in a set? Commander Code-8 Hello There! 08:18, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
    • Check out the new image; for single cards, there wouldn't be a hidebox at all. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 16:05, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
  • Option 1 should not even be an option, IMO. Personally, I don't see a problem leaving things well enough alone, but of the two viable options, 3 is best. - JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 13:30, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
  • I don't think Option 2 can work for the issue Hanzo listed above. NBDani TeamFireballLogo-Collider(they/them)Yeager's Repairs 13:43, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
  • I prefer option 3, especially with the new mock up. Less clutter. Bonzane10 Sabine Starbird (holonet) 16:43, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I've been convinced that Option 3 is better. And now it also looks the part, thanks for that. :P Imperators II(Talk) 17:01, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
  • I'm Team Option 3 as well. It's already how the example is formatted, but if that one goes to CT, I'd like to have it clarified that the collapsable boxes are not to be used when there is only one listed card in a particular set. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 20:48, 22 May 2023 (UTC)