Forum:CT:Pronouns usage

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This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made in the Senate Hall or new Consensus track pages rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record.
The result of the debate was Vote 1: Support proposal; Votes 2 and 3: No consensus. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 18:48, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Hiya! Following up on the Forum:CT:Sourcing pronouns and gender vote and previous discussions on the Senate Hall thread and on Discord, I bring us a proposed rewrite of the Manual of Style's pronouns section.

The main vote here is to update the policy on distinguishing the pronouns for individual droids (use specified pronouns, like any other character), droid models ("it/its"), and inanimate, non-sentient objects ("it/its"), as well as to add two extra, but crucial, clauses about how articles should be consistent when mentioning droids with unspecified pronouns (vote 2) and characters with multiple sets of pronouns (vote 3).

Users may have differing views on these, so to prevent a messy, no-consensus result that blocks the entire proposal even if most users support most of it, they get separate counts of votes, so you could make up to three votes below. The main proposal contains these additional options in the sense that the options in votes 2 and 3 that most voters support would be added (unless they're rejected, of course). OOM 224 (he/him) 19:30, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Please read the full proposal before voting:

Update (vote 1)

Remove:
  • If a droid has gender-specific programming and is predominantly referred to using gendered pronouns in source material, refer to the droid by those pronouns rather than "it."
→ See Forum:CT:New addition to Wookieepedia:Naming policy (it's about droids!)
  • Refer to individual starships and space stations by "it"/"its" pronouns rather than "she"/"her" (example: "The Executor fired its turbolasers.").
Replace with:
  • All characters, including individual droids, should be referred to by their specified pronouns.
  • Refer to inanimate, non-sentient objects by "it/its" pronouns, even if characters or narrative text use other pronouns (example: "The Executor fired its turbolasers" instead of "The Executor fired her turbolasers.").
  • In its singular form, a droid model, as with other types of products such as starship classes, should be referred to by "it/its" pronouns (example: "The XLT-014 labor droid was a fifth-degree droid […] Instead of arms, it had two long, flat claw appendages […] Units of the model had repulsorlifts installed in their three-toed feet.").
Additionally, agree to select the additional clauses in the form that receives the most votes in each of the two voting sections below, unless a majority of votes oppose them (votes 2 and 3).

Support

  1. A big thank you to everyone who gave feedback and made suggestions for these proposals! OOM 224 (he/him) 19:30, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Imperators II(Talk) 19:36, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Fan26 (Talk) 19:43, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. —spookywillowwtalk 19:45, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  5. NBDani TeamFireballLogo-Collider(they/them)Yeager's Repairs 20:32, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  6. Lewisr (talk) 20:46, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  7. Braha'tok enthusiast Hello there 21:14, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  8. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 22:41, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  9. Rsand 30 (talk) 01:05, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  10. Jarhead002 (talk) (he/him) 01:16, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  11. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 02:58, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  12. SaintSirNicholas (talk) 04:15, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  13. Bonzane10 Sabine Starbird (holonet) 05:01, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  14. JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 06:30, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  15. Master FredceriqueCommerce Guild(talk) (he/him) 06:53, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  16. 01miki10 Open comlink 22:30, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  17. Rakhsh (talk) 01:28, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
  18. Panther436 (talk) 17:50, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Additional clause (vote 2)

Add either sub-bullet clause to the new policy "All characters, including individual droids, should be referred to by their specified pronouns":
  1. Use "they/them" pronouns for droid characters with unspecified pronouns on all articles.
    • If unspecified, default to non-assumptive singular "they/them" pronouns (example: R4-K5 uses "it/its" pronouns as specified in sources; EV-9D9 uses "she/her" pronouns as specified in sources; no pronouns are specified for either OM-5 or V0-RK, so unless the article text avoids addressing them by pronouns, they should each be referred to by singular "they/them" pronouns, and the infobox "pronouns" field should be left empty).
  2. Could use either "they/them" or "it/its" pronouns for droid characters with unspecified pronouns. The set of pronouns must be consistent within each article, but they may be different between different articles.
    • If unspecified, default to either non-assumptive singular "they/them" or "it/its" pronouns, provided each article is consistent throughout (example: R4-K5 uses "it/its" pronouns as specified in sources; EV-9D9 uses "she/her" pronouns as specified in sources; no pronouns are specified for either OM-5 or V0-RK, so each article may either consistenty use singular "they/them" or "it/its" pronouns to refer to them, and the infobox "pronouns" field should be left empty).

Support 1

  1. OOM 224 (he/him) 19:30, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Imperators II(Talk) 19:38, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
    Fan26 (Talk) 19:44, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. —spookywillowwtalk 19:45, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. For consistency between Droids and Non-Droids individual articles. Droids are people in SW and should be treated as such. NBDani TeamFireballLogo-Collider(they/them)Yeager's Repairs 20:31, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  5. Lewisr (talk) 20:46, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  6. Braha'tok enthusiast Hello there 21:14, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  7. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 22:41, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  8. Jarhead002 (talk) (he/him) 01:16, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  9. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 02:58, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  10. Bonzane10 Sabine Starbird (holonet) 05:03, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  11. Panther436 (talk) 17:50, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Support 2

  1. There are definitely cases of droids using singular they/them pronouns, however the majority of sources use neutral it/its pronouns for droids. I think this is the most accurate way to document this. Rsand 30 (talk) 01:05, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Fan26 (Talk) 05:53, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Yeah, it doesn't really make sense to mandate that all droids of unspecified pronouns get they/them as default - without an option for the article writer. There are a range of degrees (pun intended) to which droids are comparable to people in SW, so I don't see why we should be putting droids with no personality programming on the same level as the C-3POs of the world. JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 06:30, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose addition

  1. I'm opposing here for the time being unless we can determine how to draw the line between a droid with enough personality to warrant "they/them" over one that has no personality and thus warrants "it/its." Master FredceriqueCommerce Guild(talk) (he/him) 06:53, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Per Fred. 01miki10 Open comlink 22:30, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

  • Just going to pop into this section too and say there are real life people that use "it/its" as their pronouns. I would definitely encourage not using "personality" or "lack of personality" as deciding factors. There are some that consider "it/its" to be objectification of a person, but this is not always the case, and has been used more widely now than it was, say, 15 years ago. —SnowedLightning (they/them) 22:46, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
    • FWIW, we would still use it/its for a droid with personality programming if those were the pronouns used in the source. However, I wouldn't recommend we use they/them for a droid with no personality programming that is essentially a real-world piece of robotic machinery. Master FredceriqueCommerce Guild(talk) (he/him) 03:49, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
      • I agree with Fred about that. If a droid is known to not have a personality and be a mindless, nonsentient robot, then I think that it/its should be the used pronoun, if its pronouns are unknown. On the other hand, if the droid's sentience level is unknown or it is known to have a personality, then they/them as a default would be the preferred option. ThrawnChiss7 Mitth symbol Assembly Cupola 16:19, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Additional clause (vote 3)

Add this to the new policy "All characters, including individual droids, should be referred to by their specified pronouns":
  • If individuals identify with different specific pronouns at different specific times (e.g. genderfluid people), the pronoun usage must match the relevant sources' pronoun usage at each moment. Otherwise, for characters with more than one set of specified pronouns (e.g. both "she/her" and "they/them") but do not demonstrate a preference:
And, to that, add either sub-bullet:
  1. Alternate between pronoun sets within each article.
  2. Use one set of pronouns consistently within each article.

Support 1

OOM 224 (he/him) 19:30, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
Fan26 (Talk) 19:44, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
Had initially thought it'd be confusing in practice, but wrote Ailee with alternating sets with the help of some colleagues, and careful placement can help avoid phrasing collision. Could be useful in the future for characters such as Eleodie Maracavanya, or genderfluid characters who prefer to alternate sets.—spookywillowwtalk 19:45, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
Per Spooky Lewisr (talk) 20:46, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 02:58, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for amending the clause, OOM! - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 19:16, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
01miki10 Open comlink 22:30, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Support 2

  1. Imperators II(Talk) 19:37, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. NBDani TeamFireballLogo-Collider(they/them)Yeager's Repairs 20:32, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
    Braha'tok enthusiast Hello there 21:14, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Alternating pronouns can be confusing for people whose first language is not English, using a consistent set would be most helpful for readers. Rsand 30 (talk) 01:05, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
    Wikipedia uses one set of pronouns per article for consistency, readability, and to avoid confusion. We could make an exception for genderfluid characters, however. (see below)Jarhead002 (talk) (he/him) 01:16, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. SaintSirNicholas (talk) 04:16, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  5. Bonzane10 Sabine Starbird (holonet) 05:04, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  6. JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 06:30, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose addition

Opposing not because I don't think we should have this, but because I believe there should be a clause with an explicit clarification for characters such as genderfluid individuals who may vary from moment to moment how they identify. The first option covers this somewhat in practice, but the pronouns used for genderfluid characters should always adhere to the pronouns they are using in the moment. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 22:41, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  • To clarify further, the clause I'm proposing here should be present for both options; if option 2 were to win, genderfluid characters should be an exception with respect to the fact that referring to them with only one set of pronouns throughout the article would be both disrespectful and blatantly false depending on the section. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 23:07, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  1. I'd be willing to support option 1 if it were changed to require that alternating pronouns match the pronouns used in the sources to describe specific moments in time (see Ayrehead's comment below). Master FredceriqueCommerce Guild(talk) (he/him) 06:53, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Per Fred. Incidentally, if a genderfluid character does have a different preference at different times, we should not be choosing to refer to them with one pronoun set. It should absolutely be based on how the character identifies, at that point in their life. Writing a genderfluid character with only one set of pronouns could be construed as misgendering them, something we need to be wary of, not just for the sake of accuray, but out of respect to our readers. Supreme Emperor Holocomm 22:20, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. I think we all agree on the underlying principle that people's pronouns should be respected at all times, but the (my) wording of the proposals leaves room open for abuse of interpretation, so I was being rather ambitious getting everything through on one page. I agree that hypotheticals could only take us so far, so let's study some more existing cases and tackle this in a separate discussion. Sorry to do a U-turn on my own vote, but we all need to hear and learn more about such things before enshrining decisions in policy :P OOM 224 (he/him) 22:49, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. Back to oppose for reasons echoed above. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 22:56, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  5. I do still believe in clause 1's intent (to allow alternation for characters that have more than one set of pronouns, as their personal choice). But, I do worry about clause 2 enough to oppose; if we were to use one set only, we should have a template such as Wikipedia does explaining our choice to do so for consistency reasons, but also explicitly defining all pronoun sets a character wishes to go by. We should also codify in stone, if that is the route taken, that this information has to be documented in the PT/BTS before the change is made article-wide, or perhaps also include an explicit exception for characters that the authors have indicated use all sets equally and simultaneously. Misgendering is against Fandom TOU, just as deadnaming was when Fandom made us change that—for moral reasons, of course, because both are not something we should strive to do.—spookywillowwtalk 23:07, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  6. Lewisr (talk) 23:08, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  7. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 23:33, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  8. Fan26 (Talk) 04:25, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
  9. Braha'tok enthusiast Hello there 16:14, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
  10. 01miki10 Open comlink 16:18, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
  11. Panther436 (talk) 17:50, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Discuss (additional clauses)

  • If option two were to pass, it may be advisable to make some of template such as Wikipedia uses (Demi Lovato's page as an example) to explain that the site does it for readability/consistency reasons, but not to discount the choice someone's made to use two sets of pronouns. I'd also assume we'd slip in a BtS note somewhere for the character so that the information isn't infobox-exclusive (for status articles especially).—spookywillowwtalk 01:23, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  • As mentioned above, vote 3 should have a clause for genderfluid characters that explicitly alternate gender identities and/or pronouns on a regular basis. To refer to them consistently with one set of pronouns would be both inaccurate and even disrespectful, and while option 1 in the vote would give room for it there really should be a stipulation or clause for specific cases like this. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 01:24, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  • I would like to chime in that as someone who uses more than one set of pronouns (depending on who I'm talking to and how I feel that day), I absolutely agree that there needs to be a clause that explicitly mentions genderfluidity. Alternating can sometimes be a very important part of someone's identity and saying it's "difficult" to understand only feels like a backhanded insult. It's not difficult, and is extremely disrespectful. —SnowedLightning (they/them) 01:43, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
    • As a followup question (which I will also be posting on Discord): The implications of the third vote is that you would allow editors to cherrypick which pronouns should a character use more than one. Doesn't this appear to contradict everything that an encyclopedia is supposed to be? We do not cherrypick, we document everything. This includes alternating pronouns. If someone is said to use more than one set, why are you giving an option for people to pick which one they want? —SnowedLightning (they/them) 03:34, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
  • I feel like neither option is really ideal at the moment since they both specify a single approach in an area where there's a variety of differing scenarios so I feel like more flexibility is needed. The one thing that should be specified with whatever we go for is that in all cases, all pronouns that a character uses must be included in the infobox, body of the article, and categories to comphrehensively document them. The only exception to this is characters who have transitioned, in which case I assume only post-transition pronouns should be used anywhere in the article but please correct me if I'm wrong. Beyond that, I think the most logical option is to have the guidance be to try and follow how the sources themselves use pronouns in relation to the character as closely as possible, i.e. if a character is genderfluid and their pronouns switch throughout a story, then the article should do the same. If the character alternates pronouns between entire stories, we should alternate between coverage of those stories. If a character predominatly prefers using one set of pronouns, but on one occasion says that they would also accept other pronouns then it would make sense to predmoninatly use the same set of pronouns but mention the other pronouns in the P&T or similar. There might be some unclear cases, for example if a novel uses one set of pronouns and then a reference book covering the same event uses another, but in these cases it'd probably be best to clarify in the BTS the way in which the sources have covered it and then state "this article alternates" or something similar to make clear how we've interpreted the differing sources. Ayrehead02 (talk) 06:41, 22 November 2023 (UTC)