Wookieepedia:Featured article nominations/Winshur Bratt

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The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a Featured article nomination that was successful. Please do not modify it.

Winshur Bratt

  • Nominated by: UberSoldat93 (talk) 11:08, March 14, 2020 (UTC)
  • Nomination comments: My first major novel character, let's how this goes.

(3 Inqs/4 Users/7 Total)

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Support

  1. --Editoronthewiki (talk) 12:56, July 19, 2020 (UTC)
  2. Inqvote Good work on the objections. Imperators II(Talk) 20:08, September 22, 2020 (UTC)
  3. Inqvote Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 18:41, October 14, 2020 (UTC)
  4. Inqvote Tommy-Macaroni 20:13, October 15, 2020 (UTC)
  5. Very nice job! CIS roundel Erebus Chronus (talk) 20:21, October 15, 2020 (UTC)
  6. Good work :)Braha'tok enthusiast (Hello there) 20:22, October 15, 2020 (UTC)
  7. Lewisr (talk) 20:30, October 15, 2020 (UTC)

Object

Editor
  • The part "where he studied there for the majority of his life" in the intro could be reworded.--Editoronthewiki (talk) 01:06, May 7, 2020 (UTC)
TQG
  • Could use a few more images to support the text. The CEC logo and an image of Corellia itself would both work nicely. Toqgers (talk) 23:40, May 17, 2020 (UTC)
    • Added the image of CEC. If I'm not mistaken, I don't believe there's a precedent for using images of planets for novel characters to compensate for the lack of available images. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 08:58, May 18, 2020 (UTC)
      • To elaborate further, I don't think an image of Corellia itself would fit in the article now that the first section is occupied by the CEC logo. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 14:34, May 18, 2020 (UTC)
Ben
  • The year following the Battle of Yavin is 0 ABY right?
  • Would it be better to say the actual date instead of "the year following the Battle of Yavin" in both the intro and the bio? Braha'tok enthusiast (Hello there) 14:08, May 20, 2020 (UTC)
    • There is a precedent for having some leeway around dates (e.g. Darth Bane). As for "0 ABY," the text "He had been born the year after the Battle of Yavin" isn't very clear as to which year it's referring to, so I chose to go with 1 ABY just to be safe. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 14:17, May 20, 2020 (UTC)
      • "The year following the battle of Yavin" would suggest to me that Bratt was born within the 365 days (or however many days are in a year in Star Wars) of 0 ABY as that is the year following along from the battle. If it was referring to 1 ABY then it'd be a "year after" which would imply a year as already gone since the battle. That's my take on it at least, feel free to destroy that explanation. Braha'tok enthusiast (Hello there) 14:57, May 20, 2020 (UTC)
        • I think I'm gonna wait for more opinions on this before changing it. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 15:25, May 20, 2020 (UTC)
OOM
  • Since 1 ABY = one year after the Battle of Yavin, and 1 BBY = one year before, 0 BBY and 0 ABY are actually the same year. As Winshur Bratt was born "the year after the Battle of Yavin," it must be 1 ABY since the latter year began half a year after Yavin, per the rationale provided above. - - -CIS roundel OOM 224 ༼༽{talk}༼༽ 10:33, July 10, 2020 (UTC)
Imp
Objections
  • Lead quote's missing punctuation.
  • The article desperately needs more images. I realize it's about a novel subject, but by relocating the CEC logo, you can at least squeeze in images of Corellia, Coronet City, and the First Order symbol into the article, which will go that much further toward not intimidating modern readers of the Internet.
    • Added the ones you suggested. Would the image of Teza Nasz's helmet be suitable here? UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 14:02, September 21, 2020 (UTC)
      • Is she confirmed to have worn it during Bratt's killing? Imperators II(Talk) 15:16, September 21, 2020 (UTC)
        • No, just the TROS Visual Dictionary pointing out that she had a flight helmet. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 15:22, September 21, 2020 (UTC)
  • You've got intro-exclusive info.
    • The intro says Calay was revealed as a traitor, while the body only says he stole the datapad, which is not necessarily the same in the absence of any context.
    • The intro says Bratt was accused of working with Calay. I'm not seeing which sentence of the body supports that claim.
    • While I get that "determined to hand over Calay to the First Order himself" in the intro is supposed to be supported by "find Calay" and "clear Bratt's name" in the body, I'd still recommend you to reword the bit in the intro to be even less arguably consistent, or alter the body if what's in the intro is actually supported by the source.
      • The body still doesn't exactly say that Bratt intended to turn in Calay to the First Order. Imperators II(Talk) 08:09, September 22, 2020 (UTC)
        • Added. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 08:46, September 22, 2020 (UTC)
          • The intro now says that Bratt murdered Genial because he wanted to prove his innocence himself. However, in the body it says that Genial took Bratt to the party to attempt to exonerate him anyway. Imperators II(Talk) 10:28, September 22, 2020 (UTC)
            • Should be fixed now. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 12:47, September 22, 2020 (UTC)
              • Not really. Both the intro and the body still say what I noted in the point immediately above. Imperators II(Talk) 14:59, September 22, 2020 (UTC)
    • "He later engaged in a scuffle with Dex, whom he intended to punish for her actions" - Bratt's intentions towards Dex immediately prior to his pursuit of her are not given in the body.
      • Hopefully no longer intro-exclusive. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 14:02, September 21, 2020 (UTC)
  • You need to go over the entire article and try to replace several instances of the pronouns "he/him" and the noun "officer" with suitable synonyms, or even with just Bratt's last name, which is completely fine to use. Otherwise, whole paragraphs tend to rely on those pronouns alone, and it is kind of monotonous and immediately becomes confusing to the reader when men other than Bratt are mentioned.
  • Our article for the woman who interviewed Bratt calls her a First Order officer. If true, please try using mainly this to refer to her throughout the article. But also note that if you do this, care must be taken so as the reader does not potentially confuse the two officers, such as here: "He dismissed Calay and watched as the message played, recognizing the woman in the hologram as the same one from his re-employment interview. The officer was given three documents detailing multiple lists of prisoners to be transferred to Corellia"
    • Changed. Would readers still confuse "Executive Records Officer" with "First Order officer" and vice versa though? UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 14:02, September 21, 2020 (UTC)
  • "informational session on a new park" — is the session about the park, or is it taking place in the park?
  • "He then asked her if she wanted to be powerful or be crushed by her weakness, before instructing her to straighten her belt and adjust her hair before dismissing her and handing her the boxes to be organized, stating that the violation would be added to her permanent record and would result in disciplinary action." — this a run-on sentence with unclear grammar. Please clean it up, probably by splitting it up.
  • "Bratt inspected the list of names, recognizing a number of designations" — does the novel really say "designations," as in locations where the prisoners were supposed to go. or should this simply be "inspected the list of names, recognizing a number of them"?
    • From the novel: "These names. He thought he recognized a few from the newsnets, and others had designations like DIPLOMAT or ATTACHÉ; SENATOR was even listed next to one." UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 14:02, September 21, 2020 (UTC)
      • So the source does in fact, say, that he recognized the names, not anything else written in the list. Imperators II(Talk) 15:14, September 21, 2020 (UTC)
  • Please correct the grammar here: "The officer attempted to cancel the meeting but learned that Shu had already arrived outside his office, who was chatting with Genial."
  • "Bratt felt uneasy as Shu claimed he was an old friend of the officer and took notice of Dex" — who took notice? Bratt or Shu?
  • "Bratt learned the reform officer's name and considered it a joke of a name" — this is a prime example of what should go into P&T instead of Bio.
  • "asked them why were supplies scattered around the room" — I'm curious, was a reason ever given for this?
  • Please revise the two instances of the present tense-implying pronoun "this" used in "Accusations of treachery".
  • Grammar. "This prompted him to leave his office, and noticed the girl asleep at her desk."
  • Very confusing: "he was approached by Genial, who informed him that Calay had stolen the datapad that contained the lists of prisoners and that he learned this information from Dex herself." — who learned what information from whom here, exactly? Please revise.
  • Same goes for this. Please make this clearer. "Genial deduced that Bratt could not hand the list over to Shu as he was accompanying him during their meeting, and so he had Calay deliver the list instead."
    • Done. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 14:02, September 21, 2020 (UTC)
      • "Bratt had Calay deliver the list" — deliver to whom? Imperators II(Talk) 10:23, September 22, 2020 (UTC)
        • The novel says he "alerted Calay to deliver the list instead." Reworded it so that it says that Calay took the list from his office since they don't specify who the list's recipient is in that chapter. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 12:47, September 22, 2020 (UTC)
  • This part also needs some revising. "Facing a dire predicament, Bratt accompanied Genial as they attempted to seize the list from Calay in a party held by Shu in order to clear the officer's name. Exhausted, he left the office with a disheveled appearance. While leaving, however, he failed to notice a group of Resistance members who observed him while hiding." As it is right now, in the first sentence the reader thinks Bratt and Genial are already at the party, and then the two following sentences and the rest of the article reveals that Bratt was only on his way out of his office by that time.
  • This reads somewhat weird: "the colonel repeatedly insulted the officer for his incompetence until the latter finally snapped. In his thoughts, Bratt admired everything the First Order stood for. When they reached a bridge, he noticed the sea that the city bordered. Bratt began questioning his own identity" — Bratt snapped...and then was admiring the First Order? And then after "snapping," Bratt and Genial simply continued walking up to the bridge? Please clarify this bit.
  • I feel like P&T should be restructured. The first two sentences of the first paragraph talk about Bratt's link to his past, which is fine. Then you should add the bit about Navah, as that still has to do with his origin. Then, in a new paragraph you can begin describing Bratt's attitude toward his position with the CEC and FO, which you can combine with his attitude toward his assistants. And then in the final paragraph you can describe Bratt's personality and attitudes in the events immediately preceding his death, like what you have there now. Imperators II(Talk) 12:15, September 21, 2020 (UTC)
    • Restructured. How does it read now? UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 14:02, September 21, 2020 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I actually agree with Ben's reasoning above and disagree with OOM's conclusion. "1 ABY", or "one year after the Battle of Yavin", does not refer to just a single specific day 360-whatever-days after Yavin. Instead, it refers to a 360-whatever-day period of time in which all days followed the first 360-whatever-days after Battle of Yavin. "1 ABY" is, of course, not those first 360+ days, either. Those first 360+ days are a period that is referred to as "0 ABY". Therefore, the 0 ABY is definitely not half a year. It is a whole year, from the First Day After the Battle of Yavin till the Day that Is Exactly One Year After the Battle of Yavin. Ergo, "born [in] the year after the Battle of Yavin" means born in 0 ABY. Imperators II(Talk) 14:12, September 21, 2020 (UTC)
  • P&T says "Bratt firmly believed in everything the First Order stood for" and "held his ideals until the moment he was shot", however the body says he already began to question his loyalty to the FO while walking with Genial. Imperators II(Talk) 10:35, September 22, 2020 (UTC)
    • Should be more consistent now. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 12:47, September 22, 2020 (UTC)
  • The P&T can now be neatly divided into two subsections, one for Bratt's attitudes toward his past, and the other for his attitude toward/during FO. That'd give you an opportunity to put in another quote, of course. Imperators II(Talk) 15:15, September 22, 2020 (UTC)
Toprawa
  • I don't agree with your logic for his birth year. The "year after the Battle of Yavin" could just as easily, and perhaps more likely, refer to 1 ABY, which is literally the year after 0 BBY/ABY (which itself is a single year). Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 21:05, September 28, 2020 (UTC)
    • Here's my reasoning for asking Shay to change it: "Yeah, I actually agree with Ben's reasoning above and disagree with OOM's conclusion. "1 ABY", or "one year after the Battle of Yavin", does not refer to just a single specific day 360-whatever-days after Yavin. Instead, it refers to a 360-whatever-day period of time in which all days followed the first 360-whatever-days after Battle of Yavin. "1 ABY" is, of course, not those first 360+ days, either. Those first 360+ days are a period that is referred to as "0 ABY". Therefore, the 0 ABY is definitely not half a year. It is a whole year, from the First Day After the Battle of Yavin till the Day that Is Exactly One Year After the Battle of Yavin. Ergo, "born [in] the year after the Battle of Yavin" means born in 0 ABY." Imperators II(Talk) 04:26, September 29, 2020 (UTC)
      • Yup, I have to agree with both Imp and Ben on this matter. If the novel said "a year [after] Yavin," then it would place the birth year in 1 ABY. But the novel actually says "[in] the year after the Battle of Yavin" which implies the year that began after the battle ended, 0 ABY. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 06:19, September 29, 2020 (UTC)
        • Just leaving a note here, this issue was resolved in IRC. We decided to go with 1 ABY as no source concretely states that 0 BBY and 0 ABY are separate years, thus "the year after the Battle of Yavin" is referring to 1 ABY. UberSoldat93 (talk) 10:31, October 9, 2020 (UTC)
          • More precisely, we determined through secondary Canon source-based evidence that, correctly, 0 BBY and 0 ABY are not two separate years. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk)
  • I'm to understand The Rise of Skywalker Visual Dictionary dates the events of TLJ to 34 ABY (see the relevant ref note in the Edmo Ectacle article), which will allow you to simply the death date ref note somewhat. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 21:34, October 9, 2020 (UTC)
    • Yes, updated the date note accordingly. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 10:03, October 10, 2020 (UTC)
  • This sentence isn't immediately clear on whether Bratt or the prisoners are the ones being accompanied by the First Order officer. Please add either "while he was accompanied" or "while they were accompanied" as the case may be to make this clear: "Bratt was given the duty of assigning labor work to prisoners transferred to Corellia while accompanied by a First Order reform officer, Colonel Genial."
  • Can we clarify what his frustrations were over? "Bratt took out his frustrations on Dex, beating her until she bled."
  • What list? This subject has not been introduced yet. "...in an attempt to retrieve the list and clear his name."
  • What actions? This really needs some context. "He later engaged in a scuffle with Dex, whom he intended to punish for her actions." Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 23:23, October 9, 2020 (UTC)
  • What does this mean, while awaiting clearance to enter his office? Is this the first time he's entering this office? Is like his daily clearance he has to go through and this is just happening one day? "While awaiting clearance to enter his office in Building Two"
    • Elaborated on this. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 13:18, October 13, 2020 (UTC)
      • I think I understand the context of what's being described here well enough to suggest that you should begin this sentence with "One day, while awaiting..." The sentence needs some kind of introductory context. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 20:47, October 13, 2020 (UTC)
  • If his office is in Building Two, why can't that be specified here? "Eventually, he was promoted to Executive Records Officer for the department and received his own office"
  • This doesn't make sense to me. How does someone work late in the morning? You mean at night? "The girl claimed that she worked late in the morning"
    • Clarified. Here's the exact quote from the novel:"Oh yeah, sorry. Was running a bit late this morning and didn't have time to change it up. But it's neat and off my face, right, so it will do.". UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 13:18, October 13, 2020 (UTC)
      • Ok, what you've written is not what this means. This isn't saying she worked late in the morning. It's saying she was running late for work that morning. I've adjusted this myself. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 20:47, October 13, 2020 (UTC)
  • Please clarify here why this apparently is not true. Because they were only casual acquaintances, for example? "as Shu had claimed that he was an old friend of the officer."
  • In the next sentence, can we clarify why Dex is smirking?
    • That scene is told from Bratt's perspective, and he only speculates about her intentions. I initially avoided it for fear of going into play-by-play, but I've added this to the article now. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 13:18, October 13, 2020 (UTC)
  • Why does the last paragraph of "Accusations of treachery" start referring to a singular list, when the article previously mentions multiple lists?
  • I'm unclear what meeting this is referring to. During their luncheon? "...but was prevented from doing so by the reform officer's presence at the pair's meeting."
  • Just checking that the second P/T subsection quote is indeed spoken and not a private thought.
    • Yes, as weird as it is to say such a thing out loud. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 13:18, October 13, 2020 (UTC)
  • I'm confused here. I thought they didn't really know each other personally, which is what made Bratt uneasy? "However, he faltered when in the presence of Genial and Hasadar Shu, the latter of which knew Bratt personally."
  • This portion of the Bio really makes it seem like this turn of events begins to make Bratt lose his faith in the First Order: "...and the latter slowly began to evaluate his loyalty to the First Order and his own identity. Bratt also became determined to hand over Calay to the First Order by himself and thus be cleared of any suspicion." However, the final P/T paragraph later clarifies that this is not true. I'd like to see it made perfectly clear in the Bio that he's not losing his faith in the First Order.
    • Should be more consistent now. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 13:18, October 13, 2020 (UTC)
  • This is a dangling modifier. Grammatically, it's saying that Roanhorse is the villain of the story. Please revise. "As the 'villain' of the story, Roanhorse intended..." Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 00:07, October 13, 2020 (UTC)

Comments

Approved as a Featured article by Inquisitorius 20:31, October 15, 2020 (UTC)