Talk: Revan/Archive8

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End scenes of Forces of Corruption (SPOILERS)

On the Petroglyph Fan Forums, someone posted several screens from the end scenes of the historical campaign in Empire at War: Forces of Corruption. Now this contains some spoilers, so read on on your own incentive:

Apparently, Silri (Tyber Zann's henchman) uses a Sith Holocron (stolen by Zann from Jabba before the game even begins) to summon a map, showing the location of what appears to be Revan's final resting place. She goes there and there's thousands of Sith troopers encased in carbonite, with what appears to be a statue of Revan in the middle of the hall. Anyone with the game able to elaborate what's going on? :P VT-16 16:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Ooooh... --Imp 17:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Indeed VT-16 18:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Can we be sure it's Revan?=) --Imp 18:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
      • The players there appear to think so. At least the person has Sith troopers lined up like Terracotta soldiers.

EDIT: Appears someone on TFN has played the game and said there's nothing to indicate it's Revan. Apparently, the place is one of the Emperor's storehouses. VT-16 18:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Would this not indicate that, ultimately, Revan's life ended as a darksider? Darth Abeonis _{Sith Council} ^{(Sith Campaign)} 19:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Not really. --Imp 19:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
    • (1) Those look nothing like Sith troopers and (2) that's a statue of someone wearing hooded robes with a sword, which means it could be absolutely anyone. -- I need a name (Complain here) 13:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
      • I noticed that actually, it honestl could be anyone. Darth Abeonis _{Sith Council} ^{(Sith Campaign)} 14:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
        • If you look at the helmet it does look like the Sith Troopers. But it could be another Sith Lord who knows.Shifter 10:27, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
• Wait, wasn't TESB when they first started testing carbonite on humans. Now, let's assume that it is Revan's tomb. One, does that mean even after sending the Star Forge sky high he rejoined the Sith, as Sith soldiers are standing there like in that one Chinese Emperor's tomb (I have no idea which one but it was one of the first one)? And second, (going back to the first sentence) if they were doing this in the 3950's-3940's, then why the heck would Darth Vader and the boys be experimenting with the EXACT SAME SUBSTANCE way in the future???? Now, I know, Star Wars history can be as inconsistent as the Carolina Panthers, but still... Oh and BTW, I hope Revan doesn't make a mortal appearance in the GCW era. HK-47 is one thing, being a well-maintained droid and all, but a human being some 4000 years later? Totally different story. Now, seeing a descendant of Revan of would be cool, however, but not a mortal Revan himself. (I was going to rant a little more but I'll shut up now...) DAWUSS 02:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
  • The big thing in ESB was that Han survived the process and could be reawakened. If I remember correctly, Lord Keto was frozen in carbonite just before the Sith Wars, so that in itself is not new. Charlii 11:21, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
  • If it was Revan, why would there be Sith troopers all around him? He was supposed to be a lightside man. Besides, those "Sith troopers" could very well just be stormtroopers. Darthan the destroyer 16:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC) Plus, it doesnt say its Revan. So, we should not put that in the arcticle.
  • I'm pretty sure that it's at least intended to be Revan. I examined the model of the big statue in the FoC Map Editor, and found the emblem of Revan's Sith Empire on it. -MPK 19:12, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
    • An emblem that continued to be used when Revan was believed to be dead. -- I need a name (Complain here) 19:13, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Any chances of some close-up screenshots of the model? Charlii 17:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Right here, click the image to get a better look at the logo:

[[:File:SithStatue-FoC.jpg|right|thumb|100px]] Turns out I remembered wrong, it isn't any Sith Empire logo. Looks more like the Star Forge.-MPK 15:58, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

• Actually...it is the symbol of the Sith Empire...during the Jedi Civil War. --Redemption^20pxTalk 16:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Possible Soresu user?

I've been looking into Revan's lightsaber style and I have a good speculation. It seems like he is utilizing Soresu when he is confronted on his flagship. Here's a comparison between him and Obi-Wan, a utilizer of Soresu which proves my point.Darth Shadow3000 00:03, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

[[:File:Revanlightsaber.jpg|right|thumb|140px]] [[:File:ObiwanKenobiNEGTC.jpg|right|thumb|150px|]]

• It doesn't prove your point. For one, Revan's lightsaber is at head level, meaning that his legs could easily be taken out for beneath him. Obi-Wan's on the otherhand is in the centre of his body, meaning he has a higher defence-arc. It is possible that Revan knew some aspects of Soresu, but i doubt he trained in it especially. Jasca Ducato _{Sith Council} ^{Sith Campaign} 16:31, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

• I dont know about lightsaber forms, but that posture reminds me of palpatine. Could it be juyo? - 201.222.237.38 16:25, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

• I think you have a fascinating point with the resemblance between revan and Palpatine However in a vision given to the exile he is using two blades as well as in many concepts, also in the first picture below he is holding two lightsabers so Have to say the Nima/Jar'Kia stance is quite promising--Revanreborne 21:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I also think Revan used two blades and his stance does look like a Juyo stance--User:The K.O. King 24 July 2007

• There are extreme Similaritys Between Revens' Style and Juyo. The Reven Picture reminds me of the stance Luke has Just before he almost kills Vader on the Second Death star By Hk-47

• Stop, this please. There is absolutely no canonical information whatsoever regarding what forms KOTOR characters used, save for the three TSL Masters. - Sikon 17:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

• So who cares its kinda fun to sit here and think about what stance revan used or any other characters its just entertaining--Revanreborne 20:21, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I care, and so would most other users. This wikia is not a general forum, it is for conversation about the article in question, not the subject of the article. Jasca Ducato _{Sith Council} ^{Sith Campaign} 21:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• And I'm with Jasca on that. Speculation, specially if based on some canonic source, has place here, but not specualation for speculation's sake -- Skippy Farlstendoiro 08:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

He probably was taught all of the lightsaber moves. Look, just dont put in the article that he is a Soresu user. You dont have any proof. Darthan the destroyer 16:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Revan is using Juyo. Need proof? Refer to the Episode Three Video Game where Mace Windu utilizes his stance at the beggining of a multiplayer duel. His stance and Revan's are identical. And no offense to the originator of this article, but you can plainly see the physical difference between Obi-Wan's Soresu Stance and Revan's Juyo Stance. —Unsigned comment by 69.51.150.91 (talk • contribs)

Erm, to the user who didn't bother to sign their comment. That's wrong. It doesn't matter what stance either used, even if Revan's stance was identical to Juyo, unless it is printed that he used Juyo, it remains speculation. Jasca Ducato _{Sith Council} ^{Sith Campaign} 18:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC) even if Revan's stance was identical to Juyo, unless it is printed that he used Juyo, it remains speculation.

To that user I have this to say, If it looks like Sh*t and smells like Sh*t, ...Guess what it is??? —Unsigned comment by 69.51.150.91 (talk • contribs)

• User fanon pretending it's canon? - Lord Hydronium 00:29, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

No, but your close. I could see the gears in your head spinning until smoke came out. :) It means, If it looks like Juyo, and not Soresu, then what is it...?

Duh, Juyo.

This is your lesson in the obvious for today. :)

Wow, your wisdom is amazing. Darthan the destroyer 14:00, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

But, unfortunatly, there is no proof. So, yes, it is Fanon pretending its canon. Darthan the destroyer 14:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

If it looks like Juyo, then It's Juyo, If it's that obvious, then it dosen't even need to be said It's Juyo. It's like, If I hold up a dog to your face, and you've already seen what a dog looks like, I don't need to tell you it's a dog. But this is basicly like me holding a dog up to your face, and your telling me it might be a duck, and that even though you know what a dog looks like, "It might be speculation."

Lol, there's a fun little concept for you. :)

Anyway, since we know it mirrors the movements of Juyo from the Episode 3 game, we know that in a ridiculously obvious way, it is, of course, Juyo.

It's Juyo.

Mechanic Section

It should be noted, however, that despite these claims by the HK-47 unit encountered in KotOR, there was already a model of Hunter-Killers created in the galaxy, as supported by two Sith officers discussing finding HK-47 once the party is captured by the Leviathan. This heavily suggests that while Revan may have designed HK-47's mind-set and possible additions to the basic model, that he was not the creator of the Hunter-Killer series themselves.

Why should it be noted? The first paragraph doesn't claim that Revan invented the HK series of models, nor does it infer it. It simply states that he built HK-47, which is - as far as we know - true. (Ulicus 17:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC))

• Oh, sorry, I just remembered why it might be noted, as HK-47 claimed to be "unique" - until the HK-50s and 51s came along. I'll just rejig it a bit to mesh a bit better. (Ulicus 17:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC))
  • Ok, it's not excellent, but it has been Wookified now. The reference to "KotOR" has been removed, as this isn't a behind the scenes section. Since we don't know whether or not the Sith officer discussion is canon either (you don't have to choose to have HK-47 rescue you), the reference to it has been removed as well. I've made note of HK-24 as proof of a HK-47 precursor instead... even so, I recall GO-TO referring to HK-47 as "the original", or something... so I might make a note of that when I find the relevant dialog. Of course, he ISN'T the original, but it seems notable that other characters think he is. (Ulicus 17:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC))
    • Nope, can't find it... I guess I imagined it. It seems to me that the HK-50s were based off HK-47s model specifically though, so they may have made use of whatever modifications/extras that Revan put into his own take on the HK-series... who knows? That's me done.(Ulicus 17:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC))
  • Maybe Revan found HK? No one will know for certain. All that we know is that HK thinks of Revan as his creator. Darthan the destroyer 01:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Revan didn't build HK-47, did he? If I remember correctly you buy him at Tatooine in KotOR 1.
    • If you remember correctly, you will find out that Revan lost Hk-47 on a mission into Mandalorian space following the Mandalorian Wars, but before he lost his memory. Through total coincidence however, Revan again picks him up on Tatooine. And sign your posts please. Jasca Ducato _{Sith Council} 19:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Revan vs Darth Revan, round infinity

I was thinking about this, and I'm starting to think this page might work better as "Darth Revan" (contrary to one of my previous posts). Yes it's true that Revan abandoned the Darth title when he went back to the light side, but he also abandoned the name Revan altogether. You have multiple instances of the light-side player going "I'm not Revan anymore, I'm not Revan anymore". Therefore, the guy's name isn't Revan, but whatever character name you gave him. As the character names are variable and non-canon, we're forced to fall back to to his previous name, Darth Revan. Furthermore, having it as Darth Revan somewhat drives home the point that he was best known as the Sith Lord, rather than the Jedi, especially as that wass the most distinguishing aspect of his life. - Lalala la 03:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

• Not exactly. He is last addressed as Revan (and he doesn't stop him either) as "Revan, the prodigal knight." by Vandar. By that point, it can be assumed that Revan accepted that he is Revan - a redeemed Revan. --Redemption^20pxTalk 04:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Indeedy. The fact the NEC, Vandar, everyone who knew him in KOTOR II, and his own actions in going to the Outer Rim kind of show he was referred to as Revan and accepted it, which seems a lot more Jedi-like (accepting one's mistakes) than trying to brush it off and deny they are the same person. Lord Patrick 05:51, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
    • I agree with Redemption and Patrick. It's also important to note that a lot of (if not all) Revan's memories eventually returned, which could lead to his acceptance of the name once again. He only denied being Revan at all when "Revan" was just another word for "Evil Revan", and when he didn't remember his previous existance.(Ulicus 20:52, 22 February 2007 (UTC))
      • Revan was the name he was last known by, so it stays at Revan. Jasca Ducato _{Sith Council} ^{Sith Campaign} 21:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Its not gonna work on wikipedia, and it wont work here. Revan is not the same as Darth Revan. Remember that. Revan is his name, and he will be forever known as Revan. Darthan the destroyer 16:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I also think his real name is Revan although he is not the same as Darth Revan--User:The K.O. King 24 July 2007

Pruning

I am pruning several sections of the article. Lets not revert until we see what the inquisition thinks first aye? (Ulicus 10:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC))

Stuff that I've been over

• Introduction
• Early Life
• Jedi training
• Mandalorian Wars
• Discovery of the Star Forge
• Behind the Scenes (still plenty of room for improvement)

I'll probably do some work on the Jedi Civil War, KotOR and Into the Unknown sections later today.(Ulicus 05:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC))

Ok, I ended up adding a new section: "The Star Forge", which is basically the beginning of the old Jedi Civil War stuff expanded. I also added a couple of new pictures, though their sizing/placement probably isn't perfect. I'm working in a pretty high resolution, so if they're messing anything up in the lower resis, let me know. (Ulicus 14:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC))

Introduction

I rewrote the intro... how's it look? Sarendipity (Talk to me) 06:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• Hmmm. Honestly? It's not bad but Sentry's intro wasn't bad to begin with, seemed to possess more of an encyclopaedic tone and had been revised several times already. I don't think it needed rewriting really, though there were a couple of super long sentences in there. That said, let's leave it for now and see what others make of it.(Ulicus 08:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC))
  • Ok, so no-one's made any comments at all :S. Well, my stance is that it should be reverted. The previous introduction wasn't perfect (especially since, having checked over it, it isn't actually as I remember and there's a lot of stuff that interrupts the flow) but I think it was better than the new one. There are things wrong with the article, but nothing in the main stuff (that is, the non-BTS stuff) needs to be completely rewritten. Touched up, sure. Flowery language toned down in some cases? I guess. But a complete rewrite seems unneccessary. Sorry.(Ulicus 17:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC))
    • I know it wasn't specifically called for by the Inquisitorius, but I saw a few things wrong with it and set about fixing it. The intention wasn't originally to completely rewrite it, but once I began fixing things it looked less and less like the original. There are still some elements of other people's work in there. It's the nature of a wiki; nothing on a page is ever truly "done," as it can always be improved on. That's true of my rewrite as well, as I've seen a few minor corrections to it so far. I posted on this talk page in the hope of getting feedback to make it better. It's the most important part of the article in that it should be able to accurately describe Revan to someone who doesn't know who he was at all. I didn't feel that the previous version accurately portrayed the ambiguities in his story, and I also wanted to separate the unique phases of his life a little more. Obviously I'd like to see the new one stick, but if you do go back to the other one, don't just revert and leave it as it was, please. Sarendipity (Talk to me) 19:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Though I think the previous intro was fine in summing up what Revan did, which is all it's there to do, I wouldn't intend on doing a straight revert. I think I might experiment in blending the two together - then post on the discussion page for criticism - as you're right on the ambigious front, it's just that the previous one seemed more succint (I'm not certain if it *actually* was or not, but that's the impression I get). I disagree, however, in your analysis that nothing on a page can ever be truly "done". There simply must reach a point where something can't be improved anymore. I'm not saying that the previous intro was "done", or couldn't be improved at all (far from it), just arguing a general point :P (Ulicus 04:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC))

Right, here's the 'blend' - it's pretty much the bastard offspring of both intros and I've tried to do them justice:

Revan was an enigmatic male[1] Human Jedi Knight and General. A charismatic leader, potent wielder of the Force and unparalleled military tactician in his time, he is credited with leading the Galactic Republic to victory in the Mandalorian Wars. After the war, however, the Republic’s savior returned from the Unknown Regions in command of a vast Sith armada. Now bearing the title “Dark Lord of the Sith” and deploying his forces against the Republic, his return marked the beginning of the Jedi Civil War. Swiftly conquering a significant portion of the Republic’s territory, Darth Revan established a powerful new Sith Empire yet, at the height of his power, he was ensnared by a Jedi trap and captured; in part due to the betrayal of his apprentice, Darth Malak. His mind destroyed, the Jedi Council repaired it with a new identity – one loyal to the Republic. Despite eventually discovering his former identity as the Dark Lord, Revan redeemed himself by rejecting the dark side, defeating Malak, and ending the very war he had begun. Shortly thereafter, Revan departed once again for the Unknown Regions. His memories of his former life had returned, and there was something in his past that he felt he had to confront alone. Kreia, Revan's old Jedi Master, believed that Darth Revan’s brutally efficient invasion of the Galaxy had been part of a complex plan to secure the Republic from a long-hidden threat known as the "True Sith", suggesting that Revan had departed on a solitary quest to defeat them once and for all. Whatever the truth of her revelations, however, one thing is certain: Revan was a complex and mysterious figure.

Rip apart at your leisure :) (Ulicus 04:42, 7 March 2007 (UTC))

• Very nice, good work :) Sarendipity (Talk to me) 04:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, in that case it's in... uh, until any hugely glaring errors are pointed out. (Ulicus 05:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC))
• I removed "male Human" from the introduction as it looked silly and is already covered in the infobox. --Imp 22:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't disagree (Ulicus 05:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC))
    • Though it seems someone has put it back...(Ulicus 05:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC))
      • If you don't mind, I'm removing the last sentence; it sounds too much like the thesis of an essay rather than an encyclopedia entry. - Lord Hydronium 05:55, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
        • That's cool. (Ulicus 07:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC))

Now Don't Anyone Lash Out At Me For Not Knowing This

But where exactly is it stated that Revan was Darth Revan's real name? Xepeyon 20:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

• Well, it is not explicitly stated that it is his real name, but, because it's the only canonical name given, it's used. ^Jorrel_Fraajic 20:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Where exactly does it say in the article that Revan was his real name? :P It says that Revan and Malak "used the names they were already known by rather than new Sith monkiers". "Revan" could have been an alias he adopted at a very young age for all we know - but it was the name he was known by throughout the Mandalorian Wars for certain. It's also what all the masters called him. (Ulicus 20:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC))
    • oh, sorry. But I could have sworn that the article, at least at one time, said that Revan was his real name...Xepeyon 20:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Erm, why would he have taken an alias when he was being trained as a Jedi? Wouldn't he just use his real name? Jasca Ducato _{Sith Council} ^{Sith Campaign} 21:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
        • Revan is his real name. He was referred to as such before he took the Darth title. - Sikon 21:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
          • Thank you. Revan was his real name. Jasca Ducato _{Sith Council} ^{Sith Campaign} 21:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
            • Yeah, because Jedi have never taken alias. Never. *cough*Dark Woman*cough*. Revan probably was his real name. All we can state with certainty was that it was the name he was *known* by. :P (Ulicus 05:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC))
  • Wow, you should take something for that cough. wouldn't Revan be his name? It says so everywhere. But, I cant Lash out at Xepeyon Darthan the destroyer 03:03, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Dark Women was an alias taken to defend herself against the Empire. Revan didn't have that problem. Revan was his birth name. Jasca Ducato _{Sith Council} ^{Sith Campaign} 11:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

New Image

thumb|right|100px [[:File:Revanmainnew.jpg|thumb|right|100px]] [[:File:Revanmainnew2.jpg|thumb|right|100px]] I posted an image for consideration as the main image similar to this once before, only back then my PC was turd. This time the graphical settings are all at maximum (though I must admit that it doesn't translate as well into a screenshot as I had hoped, it's certainly no worse than the current main image in quality). It's a head and shoulders shot and I think it's a better picture than the one currently up, which is - for lack of a better word - boring. It's also a shot of a vision and implies that the real Revan used two lightsabers, when we don't know this for a fact. Revan's a great character, and he deserves a decent first impression :P. Well, discuss at your convinience.(Ulicus 05:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)).

• Not as good quality. Kinda smudged and not quite as sharp...shaders aren't that great either. Red tints are never a good thing. --Redemption^20pxTalk 05:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
  • The tint is what kind of throws me off. We can always crop the current one if you really don't like the two lightsabers thing-a-ma-bob. Cull Tremayne 05:52, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Or even simply make quick and simple alterations to the game so that he isn't wielding twin lightsabers. --Redemption^20pxTalk 05:56, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
      • If we do crop the current one, I suggest getting just an upper torso and head/shoulders shot. As for the tint, well... yeah, he's standing on top of the rakatan temple in the full glare of the sun (Ulicus 07:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC))

Wow, you're right about the quality Redemption. I can't believe I didn't notice the huge difference between the two (embarrassed). Anyhow, an image cropped something like this is what I would suggest: I might stick the "RevanDLotS" image in the Legacy of a Dark Lord bit though. Still... if someone's willing to take the same screenshot I already posted with a higher resolution... I maintain that the "arms crossed pose" is the best.(Ulicus 07:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)) Oh and I really like this cropped version (the third one). Head, shoulders, no knees and toes. *thumbs up* (Ulicus 08:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC))

Expansion Template

Does anyone know why the expansion template is there in the "Forbidden relationships" section? The Bastila part does look a bit short, but I always play as female so I don't know if anything is missing. Also, I think perhaps the Bastila romance should be moved up above Behind the scenes to the canon section, and the other two non-canon romances should be moved into Behind the scenes (scratching the "Forbidden relationships" heading altogether). Sarendipity (Talk to me) 06:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• I don't really see the need for a section of Bastila's romance at all really. I think it could quite easily be incorporated into Revan's main biography.(Ulicus 07:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC))
  • How about we keep the Romance he had in the Romance Section? Darthan the destroyer 17:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Mind-wiped or amnesiac

Just for the record. Revan was not amnesiac, he had had his memory wiped. Any edit to the contary will be reverted.Jasca Ducato _{Sith Council} ^{Sith Campaign} 08:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• Malak's aim in attacking Revan was to kill him, not wipe his mind. He lost his memory as a side effect of Malak's attacks. Bastila says that his mind was destroyed and she used the Force to preserve the flicker of life in his body and the Council gave him a new identity almost immediately after the revelation scene, much like putting in a new CD in a player with some fragments in it. My source is KOTOR I. Yours?

Lord Patrick 09:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• • The Jedi wiped Revan's mind, not Malak. The Jedi could have easily rebuilt Revan's mind, they gave him a new identity remember. KotOR I clearly states that his mind was wiped, not that he was amnesiac. So your "source" supports me. And, once again, I must point out, being amnesiac is different to being mind-wiped (like Revan was) and having one's mind destroyed. In order for someone to be amnesiac, their mind must be intact. Jasca Ducato _{Sith Council} ^{Sith Campaign} 09:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Bastila clearly and unambigiously states his mind was d-e-s-t-r-o-y-e-d after the revelation scene in context of her preserving his life after he got betrayed by Malak. You could potentially pull up Mission quotes, but let's face it, who's more reliable, a woman who has had personal intimate witness to these events and a force bond with the man she's discussing or a 14 year old Twi'lek street urchin who was barely leaving childhood when Revan was attacked by Malak. As for the amnesia thing, even if he wasn't amnesiac, this is not a two option situation. Just because X isn't true doesn't mean Y is true. Z could be, or A, or B, C, or J for that matter. Lord Patrick 09:30, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• I'm not disputing that Revan's mind was destroyed. But Bastila clearly, and unambigiously states that enough of his his mind survived, for him to survive. The difinition of amnesic is Partial or total loss of memory, usually resulting from shock, psychological disturbance, brain injury, or illness. We have no source that he lost his memory during the attack, just that all connection to the memories were lost. The Jedi council totally wiped his memory of his life and implanted a new set, thus, he had been mind wiped. He was not amnesiac, he was mind-wiped. I'm sure if he had been amnesiac, someone would have mentioned it. Bastila would have said, "oh, you were amnesiac and couldn't remember a single thing, but we thought we'd wipe your mind of the memories you have no chance of remembering and give you new one, just because we like to be difficult." Jasca Ducato _{Sith Council} ^{Sith Campaign} 09:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

See my point above. Just because X might not be true DOES NOT mean that Y is. It's completely possible, by the way to live in a mentally destroyed state (See:Persistant Vegetative State). Fragments of digital memory can hang around a computer system even if it becomes busted and is replaced with a new one. In Revan's case, they programmed memories onto what was effectively a virtually blank state, and the memories resurfaced. I know he eventually recovered his memories, but truly that's more a case of the fragments(old memories) resurrecting the true Revan from his fragmented subconscious rather than his memories breaking out under a Council placed wall of neurological tar. Lord Patrick 09:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Patrick is correct. Revan's mind was destroyed by Malak's attack.

Information in-game is somewhat contradictory. Personally I don't believe that all the game designers were entirely certain on what happened. That said, we have to go with the most reliable sources in-game.

Malak states that the Jedi Council wiped Revan's mind as does Carth (having heard it from Malak) - but it is Bastila who is the most reliable of the three, and it is she who, one presumes, gives us the closest thing to the truth. She states that Revan's mind was destroyed and that the Jedi Council inserted their puppet identity at that point. Not that they retrieved a badly damaged Revan - who was still Revan - erased what was left of his mind, then built him a new one.(Ulicus 10:30, 8 March 2007 (UTC))

As an aside, The Chronicles of the Old Republic directly refer to Revan as an amnesiac. There are mistakes contained within them, that's true, but whenever they don't contradict game information then they're taken to be canon (Ulicus 10:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC))

• The jedi council did not mind wipe revan, they healed what was left of his already broken mind and implanted new memories into it, the memory loss happend when he struck his head against the bridge of the flagship when malak attaked.-User:KickAssJedi
• Revan is definatly amnesiac. If he had his mind wiped, he wouldn't be able to remember that he was once a dark lord of the Sith. He wouldn't have the dreams of his fight with the Jedi on the Star Forge. The Jedi gave him knew memories, and told Bastilla to watch him. Thats it. Darthan the destroyer 17:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
• Well, apparently the NEC refers to the Council "scouring" Revan's mind and refers to him regaining memories the Council had "erased". Should we put this down to shoddy research/inaccurate fanboy Banthaosik being Goebelled into the NEC as it contradicts the most reliable in game info, or take the "mindwipe meme" as a given? Lord Patrick 00:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Lets, shall we? Darthan the destroyer 14:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Main pic

• Can we pleasssssse change the main image the current one is horrible, the most obvious point is that its not even revan its just an apparition the purple couloration is crap, he is holding two lightsaber which as far as im aware is non-canon the dark lord one on the rakata temple is much more imposing.-User:KickAssJedi
  • I'm all for making RevanDloTS the main image, ESPECIALLY now User:Redemption has uploaded a much, much, much prettier version of it (at least I think he has). It's what I've been pushing for on and off for months though, so I'm very biased...(Ulicus 17:44, 11 March 2007 (UTC))
    • Someone please change the image to either the darklord one or get a new one,the current one is just dire it is NOT revan it is an apparition conjured by the dark side energy of the tomb.-User:KickAssJedi
      • Whether you noticed it or not, I've fixed the problems you had with the image. No more purple tint or second lightsaber. --Redemption^20pxTalk 18:44, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
        • I know im being picky but thats even worse it looks like someones spilt a cupa tea on the image, the dark lord one is perfect its imposing,dramatic, its on lehon which revan probably considered the most important place in the galaxy its perfect.-User:KickAssJedi
          • It's not. It's red and ugly. And stop logging in and out when changing the image. We know it's you. --Redemption^20pxTalk 19:27, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • What is the attraction to that damn image its hidoeus, and its not me its my brother(he hasnt got an account)-User:KickAssJedi
    • First off, there is no attachment. Just a matter of good judgement. And secondly, never play the "it was my brother!" card. It never works. --Redemption^20pxTalk 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Firstly im not interestead in if you beleve me, i thought it was nesecery to explain what happend because i didnt want people thinking i was a vandal.

Secondly(after reading comments section) I didnt realise the dl image was from the non canon ending i thought it was the flash back were he takes his mask off(i take it all back)i still think the coffe stained one in the info box is awful though maybe a new one altogether is needed.-User:KickAssJedi

• • • • Well these are the only canon images your going to get so deal with it or (famous trademark!) get the hell out if you don't like it. --Redemption^20pxTalk 21:01, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
        • Those cant be the only canon image's available the second one is non canon so fair play(looks like it wont win anyway)But im sure we can do better than the apparition one(also there's no need to be rude)-User:KickAssJedi
          • Well, they are the only ones. The only other times Revan appears are in the movie but those aren't the greatest quality. I'm just giving it to you straight. --Redemption^20pxTalk 21:18, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Fair enough i guess but youve got to admit that picture is below average quality,

maybe an ingame screen cap of him in jedi robes with a blue lightsaber ignited but with his face obscured by something(like the Jedi exile) that at least wont contradict canon.-User:KickAssJedi

• • No. It's just easier (and more recognizable) to do him in his sith robes. --Redemption^20pxTalk 21:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Ok I just hate that image with avengence it really does look like someones spilt take away coffe on it, anyways never mind but i am going to strive to find a better picture even if it kills me.-User:KickAssJedi

I think the main image needs cropping. Head/shoulders/torso preferably. The lightsaber shouldn't be edited out really, since the "vision" was carrying two lightsabers - that said, I don't think the main image should imply that Revan favours any particular form or fighting style... cropping would be preferable. (Ulicus 09:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC))

Infobox Image - Vote

Just to end this edit war nonsense...

File:Revanludotomb.jpg|Revan in Ludo's Tomb File:RevanDLotS.JPG|Revan Dark Sided Ending

Revan in Ludo's Tomb

1. Redemption^20pxTalk 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
2. They look essentially the same to me, so even if #1 is a dark side apparition, it's an accurate enough apparition for our purposes. Gonk 19:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
3. 19:57, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
4. Jasca Ducato _{Sith Council} ^{Sith Campaign} 20:11, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
5. Green Tentacle ^(Talk) 20:20, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
6. This one is better and "more canon." By the way, is that really Ludo Kreesh's tomb? I thought it was the Ancient Rakatan Temple. - TopAce 21:30, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
7. Probably not needed but.... Chack Jadson 21:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
8. Lord Hydronium 21:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
9. More canon than dark side ending. KEJ 21:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
10. Better image, canon image, and without any glare. —Jaymach Ral'Tir (talk) 12:51, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
11. The lighting in this one is better. Nothing's wrong with it. -MPK 19:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Revan Dark Sided Ending

1. I'll be the lone voice crying out, ;) (Ulicus 09:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC))
2. I'll join you I know the second one is the dark side ending but I really cant stand that pic.-User:KickAssJedi
3. That dark side ending image is bad ass and better than any apparation of Revan. -TheLostJedi 00:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Comments

• If the second image is from the dark side ending then it's not really canon, is it? -- I need a name (Complain here) 19:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • He still looks the same as he does in the canon ending, in terms of armour. Jasca Ducato _{Sith Council} ^{Sith Campaign} 20:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I think we need a diffrent image altogether maybe a close up of him on the bridge of his flagship.-User:kickAssJedi
• We know that, regardless of the ending, Revan was at that temple in that get-up at one point (see the Revelation scene). Moving on, I don't care if the Ludo Tomb image remains the main one, but it HAS to be cropped. Head and shoulder shot ideally. (Ulicus 09:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC))
• I never imagined I'd cause so much ruckus when I uploaded the original version of that image XD I can't believe people are still debating this. (Fade) 77.99.28.91 02:07, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
• Er, why exactly should it be cropped? Have headshots become the precedent when wasn't looking? Lord Patrick 21:01, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I hope not, otherwise I missed that memo. Darthan the destroyer 03:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• Yeah, we pretty much decided to go professional. Sorry. .... 11:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Eye colour(dark side)

White should be in the infobox as well as yellow, as on one of the faces when you fall completely to the dark side his eyes go completely white all over.-User:KickAssJedi

• Revan's re-falling to the darkside isn't canon. Therefore, any information from his dark side appearance is not canon, and can't be added. ^Jorrel_Fraajic 13:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm with Jorrel in that. But, if anything in the "alternative endings" is important enough, could it be added in a Behind the Scenes section? I'm just asking. - Skippy Farlstendoiro 13:49, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
    • I don't see why not. Trivial as it may seem, it is info. ^Jorrel_Fraajic 13:56, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
    • I know the dark side ending is non canon what im talking about is when he WAS ont the dark side(after the mandalorian wars) we dont know which of the possible faces is canon therfore we dont know wether his eye colour(dark Side) was white or yellow both are possible so both should be added.-User:KickAssJedi
      • I vote we leave out eye color altogether, rather than list every possible one. Sarendipity ^Talk File:Atrissig.jpg 17:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
        • There are only two possible dark side ones white or yellow they both should be in the info box.-User:KickAssJedi
          • Regardless of what face the player picks (or even gender or alignment, although we don't have to be neutral there) Revan always has yellow eyes in the Revelation cutscene, as Darth Revan. Lord Patrick 21:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
            • Okay, then yellow is fine. White is non-canon, however. Sarendipity ^Talk File:Atrissig.jpg 21:23, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Ive just replayed it, if you play as the guy with the short brown hair gotee and scar near his eye, then his dark side eye colour is white even in the revalation cutscene white should be in the info box as well.-User:KickAssJedi
    • All dark side faces have yellow eyes. Some are a paler shade of yellow but they are all yellow. --Redemption^20pxTalk 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Im looking at him right now im in tulak hords tomb talking to jorak uln and his eyes and my characters eyes are identical there definately white.
        • It's the module ambient colors playing tricks. You have to look at the textures without any module interference. --Redemption^20pxTalk 22:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
          • Is that PC speak im an xboxer.-User:KickAssJedi
            • PC. PC, I believe, outweighs Xbox since it was released later. Though in this case it shouldn't make a difference since the textures are exactly the same. Though your television screen may also be contributing to the eye whiteness. --Redemption^20pxTalk 00:07, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
• That does seem a little weird as well for a Sith's eyes to be white. They're usually yellow when someone is really Sith-like and evil. I also agree that the PC version of the game should overrule the XBox version as it is more recent. -TheLostJedi 11:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
  • All sith have yellow eyes. That is a symbol of a Sith. Well, Palpatine doesnt. But thats because he had to hide who he really was. Plus, PC version is not only the most recent, its the most reliable. Xbox is okay for games only on the Xbox, but if it can also be on the PC, PC is definatly the most canon. Darthan the destroyer 14:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
    • All sith DO NOT have yellow eyes, Darth Traya had black eyes, Exar Kun had red eyes, Jorak Uln had WHITE eyes, yuthara ban had violet eyes, yellow is simpy the most common.KickAssJedi 11:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
      • Traya was weird. She didn't even have PUPILS!! Exar Kun wasn't that evil, and Who's Jorak Uln? 68.109.132.225 14:22, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
        • • It doesnt matter if you think there weird or not evil enough they both were heavily enveloped in the darkside and there eye colors changed to black and red because of that, and jorak uln is a sith in knights of the old republic.KickAssJedi 13:17, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Lightsaber

I'm sure this has been discussed before but...surely the two saber vs. one saber thing is fairly obvious. Revan had a purple lightsaber before/after being a sith lord. As a sith lord, he had a red lightsaber. end of story. the vision allows for Revan to be Lightside or Darkside without changing lightsabers.

• • there is no basis in canon for that, all we know for sure is that he had a red lightsaber during his time as a sith lord his saber colour before and after that is unkwon(and sighn your posts in the future).-User:KickAssJedi

Why is this here? Darthan the destroyer 02:59, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Although there is probably a better reason, I always thought that the vision of Revan on Korriban with red and violet bladed sabers was so that you could think of Revan as either male or female. It would seem more likely to me that if the red and violet Lightsabers were representing the Light and Dark Side of the Force then he would have been holding a red and blue Lightsaber - blue being a more well known Jedi colour than violet. -TheLostJedi 11:51, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

• Well, more well known or not, violet is still a Jedi color. In the first K.O.T.O.R., I counted at least three Jedi who used violet blades, and the Dark Jedi who used them in the game just might have been using their Jedi sabers, as the color code of Jedi, Dark Jedi,(and sometimes even Sith) wasn't as strict,(Exar Kun & Sylvar, for example) and Revan in K.O.T.O.R. II was just a vision, not the real man. Maybe Kreia knew the same power as Lumiya, the power to project Force Visions, they both held the title of Sith Lady, after all--Jedi Kasra 20:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Revan Fanboys

Just asking but, is it time they get their own page? I think there's a large enough crowd of them to at least consider it. DAWUSS 23:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Revan fanboys, idiotic and stupid though they are, are not nearly as acknowledged, well defined, or legion as Saxtonites, Fandalorians, or Fleet Junkies. They are probably about on the level of cosplayers in number. Lord Patrick 09:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Would have been fun to do though ;) DAWUSS 00:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Believe me, if I could write just one article on Wookieepedia, it would be that. But it's not Wookieeish. But if I did it would probably go like this
    • Characteristics of dumbass Revan fanwankers;
• Believing that Revan is *the* most powerful Sith Lord of all time, despite canonical evidence to the contrary and inflating a single statement from Kreia about KOTOR era Jedi compared to TOTJ era Jedi, along with Lucas statements about older versus newer Jedi, extrapolating this, and applying it to the Sith, despite indisputable G-canon evidence that the Dark Side was stronger during the prequels, and thus, logically, the Sith would be.
• Using asinine arguments like "Even Sith apprentices in Revan's day knew force lightning and used it on a wider scale than Palpatine." to "prove" that Revan would curbstomp anybody from the movie era, despite the fact that under this "logic", I can use the Clone Wars cartoons to prove that Yoda, Mace, or Grievous could wipe their asses with everybody from KOTOR.
• Believing that Revan never really fell, which as Sikon has pointed out, also requires one to trust Kreia as saying Exile>Revan, and/or believing that Revan's fall/turn was the fault of the evil meanie Council/True Sith/Senate/Republic/Malak and that he was perfectly moral in manipulating his own soldiers, devising techniques to torture innocent people, implementing these techniques, turning people into mindless zombies, likely killing quadrillions, and murdering political officials.
• Believing that Revan was "mindwiped" by the Jedi Council, despite clear and indisputable canonical evidence otherwise by the woman who was bloody well present when he was betrayed by Malak stating that Revan's mind was destroyed, and that the Council healed his mind. Also, believing that the Council's reprogramming or alleged mindwiping was evil and immoral, yet murdering quadrillions of innocent people isn't.
• Believing Malak was the true evil one, when the game itself shows him as the more innocent one who was corrupted after Revan, and when Revan himself apologizes for leading him down the path of darkness. Also believing that Malak was simultaneously an idiot based on a couple of big dialogue blunders and also a manipulator of Revan.
• Considering it an indisputable fact that Revan was in his early twenties by KOTOR, despite the fact that this would make him, at the oldest, barely a year past adolescence by the time of the Mandalorian Wars.
• Saying that Revan *MUST* have married and had kids with Bastila, rules of the Order, commitment to the Order, consequences, historical logic, and the possibility of the KOTOR relationship being one-way or temporary be damned!

Lord Patrick 11:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, that sums them more perfectly than I ever hoped to, although I would add a couple of points myself.

• Insisting that Kreia was of higher opinion of Revan than of the Exile, despite Kreia herself calling the Exile her greatest student during the final showdown on Malachor, and despite Chris Avellone saying that part of the game design was to have the Exile as the only person Kreia actually cared about while viewing everyone else as expendable.
• Insisting that Revan's gender is unknown, or that Revan is canonically female. (For that matter, saying that the Exile's gender is unknown, or that the Exile is canonically male.) Also applies to virtually all Revan and Exile fangirls on kotorfanmedia.com and, by extension, #kotorfm.
• Creating "versus" threads on forums, like "Revan vs Vader" or "Revan vs Palpatine".
• Misspelling Revan's name as Reven, or making even more inane misspellings.

- Sikon 14:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• I don't see anything wrong with #3, but #2 irritates me to no end. And though Kotorfanmedia is okay, the gender whiners are basically a huge bunch of crybabies falling back on movie purism, accusations of fascism or sexism, and weird conspiracy theories. What I also hate is people assuming that because Revan is male, he is white skinned. What the hell kind of logic is that? I could also say "LOLZ MALIK MUST BE GAY COZ HE GETZ KILLED LOLZ!". Revan could just as easily be black skinned, brown skinned, tan skinned, or multitoned. He has *no* canonical depictions, and as such any of the selectable male faces could of been his. Just because highly ambigious advertising depicts him as such doesn't mean he is white skinned. After all, promotional art showed the Exile as male, but she isn't canonically. And I also get annoyed with people who bash the Council/GO-TO/Selkath. Just because they are cautious and a bit harsh (and for bloody good reasons) doesn't mean they are evil.

A major trait of Revan fanboys seems to be membership at Obsidian Forums (ironically, where there are more Revan fanboys than Bioware Forums, probably because Obsidian decided to deify Revan with levels of wankitude that would make Dragon Ball Z writers blush, whereas Bioware presented him as a flawed, interesting person.). Even the VIPS there, like Dark Raven, are fanboys. About the only sane people are yourself, Nur Ab Sal, Jediphile, and The Architect. Well, and there probably are sane anons laughing their asses off. Lord Patrick 18:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• Well, maybe someone should delete this. We are kind of violating the huge ass message at the top of the page. Lord Patrick 03:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
  • As much as I hate to pull this out all the time:

Source: Chronicles of the Old Republic (KotOR II website, [1])	Attribution: LucasArts
In disarray, the Jedi Council quickly gathers a small band of Jedi warriors together under the command of Jedi BASTILA SHAN with an imperative and almost suicidal mission; to capture Darth Revan, demoralize his troops, and strangle the insurrection. Setting a trap against a small Republic fleet, a small Jedi strike force boards Revan's ship, battling the Dark Lord into submission. Rather than helping his Master, DARTH MALAK lets the Jedi drag Revan from the throne after attempting a mind-wipe which was only partially successful. Returning to the Council with a comatose Revan, Jedi Masters healed Revan's mind, and implanted a loyal Republic personality.
This work is copyrighted. The individual who uploaded this work asserts that this qualifies as fair use of the material under United States copyright law.

• It sucks, but the Chronicles are a legitimate source and they explicitly state that Revan was mind wiped. So, his amnesia is due both to his severe injuries AND a "partially successful" mind-wipe.–Sentry^Talk 20:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
  • So.... Malak attempted to wipe Revan's mind? WTF? And why would you want to wipe the mind of a person to make them your slave and get you information when you could just look into the persons mind with the same power and OBTAIN the friggin information? The Chronicles are notorious for being full of holes and in this case contradict direct evidence in game from the most reliable characters. Lord Patrick 10:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
    • It doesn't say Malak wiped Revan's memory, it was the Jedi. Jasca Ducato ^{(Talk to the Dark Lord)} 13:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
      • I know that's the commonly believed theory, but that paragraph is so ambigious it can very easily read or misread as "Darth Malak let's the Jedi drag Revan from his throne after HE attempted a mindwipe." It's incredibly ambigious. Plus, there are large amounts of contradictions and holes in the Chronicles, and they in this case contradict all logical information from the most reliable sources directly in game. Lord Patrick 21:17, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
        • Sorry, but there is no contradiction that I know of. No source explicitly states that Revan wasn't mind-wiped. So, how can there be a contradiction? We don't know why or how, but Revan was mind-wiped. It is stated in an official source and is therefore true. By the way, the sentence is badly written, but its meaning is not ambiguous at all unless you purposely attempt to obfuscate it. The Jedi mind-wiped Revan.--76.104.138.204 20:33, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Surely you cannot believe that this quote was placed in the game for no reason at all…

It was quite purposely replayed during the revelation scene because it was supposed to provide an explanation for how Revan lost his memory and gained a new identity. This quote alone would seem to dismantle your argument that "there are large amounts of contradictions and holes in the Chronicles, and they in this case contradict all logical information from the most reliable sources directly in game."--76.104.138.204 21:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

• Here is yet more evidence taken directly from the NEC:

I think that should settle the issue once and for all. If not, I can easily track down a few relevant quotes that I remember from the game.--76.104.138.204 20:21, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

To put the final nail in the coffin, here are some relevent excerpts of dialogue from the revelation scene:

Malak: "Even the combined power of the Jedi Council couldn't keep your identity buried forever, could it?
The Jedi strike team captured you and the Council used the Force to reprogram your mind: they wiped away your identity and turned you against your own followers."

Revan: "Bastila, is this true?"
Bastila: "It's true. I was part of the team sent to capture Revan… to capture you. When Malak fired on the ship you were badly injured. We thought you were dead.
Your mind was destroyed, but I used the Force to preserve the flicker of life in your body. I brought you to the Jedi Council. They were the ones who healed your destroyed mind."

Revan: "But the memories I have… where did they come from?"
Malak: "The Jedi Council didn't restore your wounded mind, Revan! They merely reprogrammed it with a new identity — one loyal to the Republic! They tried to make you there slave!"

Revan: "You've been lying to me this whole time, Bastila!"
Bastila: "I wanted to tell you, but the Council forbid it! They were afraid that you might return to the dark side if you discovered your real identity!"
Malak: "But now you know the truth, Revan! The Council has failed in their attempt to make you their pawn! The will of a Sith Lord is not so easily manipulated!"

Revan: "But why reprogram me with another identity?"
Bastila: "We couldn't simply restore your true identity; Revan was too dangerous. But locked inside your mind was information the Republic needed: the secrets of the Star Forge.
The Council created an identity for you: a soldier under my command. Your subconscious memories were supposed to lead me to the Star Forge; there was no other way to get the information."
Malak: "They made you their puppet, Revan — and Bastila was the handler pulling your strings!"

Revan: "But what if I remembered who I really was?"
Bastilla: "That was a risk the Council chose to take. I had to try and draw out the secrets of the Star Forge. It was our only hope of stopping the Sith! there was no other choice."

CONCLUSION: The Chronicles are FUBAR as usual. Revan was NOT mind-wiped on his command ship. That event that occurred later at the hands of the Jedi Council.

This is the sequence of events as far as I can determine:

1. The Jedi strike team invades Revan's ship and faces him on the bridge.
2. Malak's vessel fires upon Revan's command ship.
3. Revan is gravely injured. In Bastila's words, his mind is "destroyed" (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. IMHO, if it is destroyed, it shouldn't be fixable…)
4. Bastila saves Revan's life. Her team escapes and brings Revan to the Jedi Council.
5. The Council heals Revan.
6. In the words of the NEC, The Council "Force-scoured the memories from the [Revan]'s brain".
7. They then replace his identity with one loyal to the Republic in the hopes that it would help to keep him under control.
8. The Council trusts that Revan's subconscious memories (?) would guide them to the Star Forge.
   • Here is where we run into some problems. It is difficult to imagine that the Council would purposely wipe away the very memories that they were trusting to guide them to the Star Forge. Now either the Council botched their mind-wipe (unlikely) or they purposely did not do a complete job of it ("a mind-wipe which was only partially successful" per the Chronicles). Probably the most likely scenario is that the Council did utterly erase his memory, but they were trusting that Revan's strong connection to the Force would allow him to gradually recover his identity. As Malak put it, "The will of a Sith Lord is not so easily manipulated!"

Lastly, if Revan's mind was destroyed as Bastila said, it should not have been able to have been healed. It seems obvious that Bastila was exaggerating or outright lying about the extent of his injuries. Her statement that "we couldn't simply restore your true identity; Revan was too dangerous" would seem to heavily imply that Revan's former identity was not, in fact, destroyed and that it could have been restored if the Council had wished to do so. Malak states this explicitly and Bastila does not once contradict him during this entire exchange. In fact, she agrees with him, saying "It's true."

For some reason, people keep saying that Bastila's statement that Revan's mind was "destroyed" somehow preempts the possibility that Revan was mind-wiped. It doesn't. Bastilla does not ever address the issue. Bastila does not disagree with Malak. She never contradicts his account that the Masters mind-wiped Revan before creating a new identity for him. As such, it must be assumed that either Revan was not as badly injured as Bastila had thought or that the Council's healing restored part or all of Revan's mind, thus requiring them to erase it again to keep him civil.--76.104.138.204 23:03, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Let me give you a direct replacement to show you why this makes ZERO sense. You are the Jedi Council. You have the power to screw with people's minds, up to and including wiping them entirely. Now, here's something surely some of what must be the wisest men and women in the Galaxy should of considered.

If you can screw with people's minds and wipe their memories, and implant new ones, why not EXTRACT the old memories or even just straight out delve into Revan's brain and VIEW them or get some kind of neuropsychologist/machine (surely Star Wars, even 3957 BBY, has this sort of technology and/or expertise) and save you a HUGELY risky operation that may result in the enemy you once knew and was nearly your downfall replacing the less brilliant, less competent, less tactical enemy.

Why not take this perfectly reasonable and logical conclusion and extract or view Revan's memories, transfer them or commit them to memory THEN keep Revan in stastis for further strategic information or just KILL or IMPRISON the evil bastich?

Furthermore, to quote GeneralTacticus: "Even after turning to the Dark Side, Bastila maintains that restoring Revan's original identity was impossible (and she had no reason to say this if it wasn't true; quite the reverse, in fact)." (http://www.kotorfanmedia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=15344#15344)

While Revan DID gain his identity back, the circumstances around this are sketchy and clouded. However, the fact that the person CLOSEST TO REVAN AT THE TIME OF HIS NEAR DEATH who, as GT pointed out, has EVERY reason to lie to Revan about that and provide a motivator for him states that in her opinion, restoring his original identity is IMPOSSIBLE either puts a hole in your theory with the whole "Council did a bloody poor job" schtick or makes Revan's mind a HEALING one.

Lord Patrick 01:08, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

• Wow, it is obvious that you did not read my comments very carefully. I never said the whole thing made any sense. If you think about it, the entire plan to use Revan like they did is idiotic. Don't blame me for attempting to explain the developer's inconsistencies. However, I think that I have made a very good case that you are wrong. Bastila never says that Revan's mind was not wiped. THAT is the core of what this is about. Therefore, you don't really have an argument. What I see is that I am providing ample evidence from the game and other sources, while you are providing links to another fan discussion on Kotorfanmedia.com (No offense, but I don't understand how that link was helpful… it was just a bunch of fans speculating without evidence). Not that this is meant to be a debate, but it would be helpful if you could provide something concrete to back up your position.--76.104.138.204 01:40, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

There are 2 possible options. One is backed by logic and common sense. The other is backed by greater supporting statements. What one would YOU think is true?

You are using LESS reliable sources (Characters like Malak and Carth who were further away from and more biased on the events, canonical compilations which can become subject to widespread fanonical belief, terribly researched "history" books, and vague authorial intent) to refute MORE reliable sources (Logic, common sense, characters like Bastila who were extremely close to the events and less biased (due to Bastila's romantic entanglement, this would if anything put her in a bias TOWARDS Revan, and against the Order which is prohibiting their relationship).

This is like using Answers in Genesis to refute TalkOrigins.

Lord Patrick 09:10, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

• Lets keep this about the facts shall we? This page is not a forum. It is for discussing article content and I don't want this to get personal.
  The problem as I see it is that your argument stems from your own "common sense" and "logic" which, unfortunately, have no bearing on the discussion. Encyclopedias document facts and they must retain a Neutral Point of View. In this case, an awful lot of documented facts support my argument and very few support yours. In fact, you have yet to really address or explain how bastila's dialogue actually makes a mind-wipe impossible.
  In case you are wary of my motives, I am not advocating a rewrite of the section in the article as it currently stands. It is vague enough to work. BUT, I think we should consider adding a 'Behind the scenes' section which would briefly document the seemingly contradictory information given in the game and other sources.
  Believe me, I wish that we could just rule out the whole "mind-wipe" subject based on Bastila's dialogue, but her statement is just too opaque and open to interpretation, and of course, it would seem to contradict everything else written about Revan's amnesia and how it came about.--76.104.138.204 22:51, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
• Hey look, yet more evidence:

--Sentry 03:01, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[2] Well, that doesn't make much sense to me, but.. you do have more evidence. I will concede that the amnesia thing was a result, as Ulicus hypothesised, of poor developer communication, and that Bastila's statement was a poorly written, poorly worded line that has since been retconned. Of course, to me it doesn't matter, as the act still seems moral. But that's another matter. Lord Patrick 02:23, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

• One thing though. If Revan underwent a memory wipe, why didn't they get all of his memory?? It makes no goddamn sense that he has his mind wiped, but still has his old mind. Damn you starwars databank. DAMN YOU!!! Darthan the destroyer 05:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
• Remember when Bastila said that Revan's mind was destroyed? It probably means that Revan's identity as the Dark Lord was destroyed, but his memories were still there. The Jedi Council merely made sure that Darth Revan was indeed destroyed, healed his mind, and gave him a new identity, although the memories of Darth Revan were still there, he couldn't put two and two together. And you guys are right about the people that say that the Jedi were wrong to give Revan a new identity. The man killed a lot of people to get where he was. But I have to agree with the fact that Revan was perhaps 18, maybe 19, when he led the Jedi in the Mandalorian Wars. 25 to 29 is too old to be calling "young",unless of course you're either arrogant or you're Yoda's species, and if you expect me to believe that he was 32 to 36, forget it.--Jedi Kasra 04:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Sure, his memories were still there, because the counsel didn't mind wipe him. If they did, no amount of his previous life would remain. Plus, Revan was Probably at least 20 when he led the Jedi into the Mandalorian Wars. He must've been a Knight for almost a year to gain that much trust in the Jedi Order. Plus, if he falls in love with Bastila, it makes sense. She would probably be around the same age as him. And no one ever said he was 32 or 36. Tis too old, and I doubt bastila would fall for him then. Darthan the destroyer 14:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
• Yes, but I would go as far to say the perhaps they both are the same age. If you think about it, Bastila says that she was given to the Jedi at a "young" age. Ki-Adi Mundi was given to the Jedi at age 4, as was Eeth Koth. And she wouldn't have too many memories of Daddy and Helena Shan if she was 2 or 3 when turned over to the Order. And she does mention to Revan that she and her dad were very close, so perhaps she joined when she was 4 or 5, and as far as Revan's age, he did rebel against the Council, in the Knights of the Old Republic : Commencement storyline, the Padawans of the the four Jedi Consulars were going to become Jedi Knights, and they all looked like they could be 16-17 years old. The only reason Bastila was probably a Padawan in K.O.T.O.R. is probably because she was given to the Order when she was 4-5 years old, and Revan was probably given when he was a baby. And I think it's safe to say that Bastila is nowhere near as strong in the Force as Revan is claimed to be. And gaining trust in the Order probably wouldn't have been as hard as one could think, remember that the dead Padawans in Commencement did heroic stuff like break up crime rings and other stuff like that. And the Mandalorian Wars were already taking place as of 3,963 B.B.Y., the year when Revan entered the war. So he, with Malak, convinced a lot of the Jedi to follow him to war, without the permission of the Council.--Jedi Kasra 00:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm of the belief that Revan was, at the absolute lower limit, in his mid twenties when he entered the war. 1.Star Wars medical technology is advanced enough that the Human lifespan is 120 years, and technology has been at a relative standstill since the Great Hyperspace War. 2.Young may also be describing ages for Knight initiation and military leadership. In real life, a 30 year old general would be considered extremely young, MUCH LESS a commander of 1/3rd of the nations forces (in fact, by that age, 40 would be considered prodigal). So young is a relative term. 3. We do not know the specifics of Star Wars sociology, and so a man in his 30's or early 40's having a relationship with a 18-25 year old adult woman might not be looked on as perverse or ephebophilic. Feel free to refute me on this. Lord Patrick 05:51, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

• Yeah, but if we were playing the game using a 30 to 40 year old character, the portraits would look similar to the male portraits in K.O.T.O.R. II, where they all look like they range from 32 to 42 years old. The male portraits in the first game, all except the first white guy, look like they're 24 to 27 years old. Oh, and you might be right about your theory on Star Wars sociology, Lord Patrick. If you read 'Legacy of the Force: Exile', it doesn't say exactly when how old Kyp was when he had a relationship with Jaina, but it does state that Jaina Solo was a teenager. I think that his profile states that Kyp was in his early to mid thirties when he entered in a relationship with Jaina. O.K., I'm getting off the subject. As for the age of Revan being made a Jedi Knight and becoming a Republic General, the games and information already says that Revan and Malak were recently made Jedi Knights when they entered the war in 3,963 B.B.Y., and it doesn't say when they IMMEDIATELY gained control of 1/3 of the Republic Army, and as for Revan becoming a Sith Lord, Anakin became a Dark Lord of the Sith when he was only 22.9 years old. And it doesn't say when he became a general, it just says that he was a General by Malachor V, although I think it's safe to assume he was granted the title of General a couple years before Malachor V, and the Republic Army was pretty desperate, so when they saw the chance to make one of the few Jedi Knights that were willing to help with the war effort, and a brilliant tactician, a General, they didn't pass it up, no matter how young he was. Of course, I'm not talking about 'inexperienced Padawan' young here. Wed on't know yet, maybe the Republic Army granted Revan and Malak and those Jedi who rebelled with them ranks like during the Clone Wars, Jedi Generals. Jedi Knights could have been given the rank of general and the Padawans could have been given ranks like Commander, remember, the Exile was a Jedi Knight and she was given the title of General.--Jedi Kasra 10:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • True, but then you forget that most Jedi Knights were considered Knights after they Were about 20-25. And they weren't considered for Masterhood untill they were about 30-40. The Jedi were probably given a command, yes. But I doubt they had as much power in the Armies as Revan and Malak. And Revan was probably in his 20's when he led the Republic into the battles. As I said before, he had to have gained influance for a few years to get all those Jedi to follow him. Darthan the destroyer 14:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
• Maybe, but in the first six Knights of the Old Republic comics the Padawans of the four Jedi Sage Masters were supposed to be knighted, instead they were killed. None of them looked a day over 17 years old. And we don't know when Padawans were supposed to be knighted back in the Old Republic. The Jedi defeated Exar Kun and his Sith Order 23 years before the events of K.O.T.O.R. #1-6: Commencement. Just because most Padawans were usually knighted in their 20's in the Rise of the Empire era, {with the possible exception of a few like Mace Windu} doesn't mean most Padawans in the Old Republic era were knighted in their 20's, too. In K.O.T.O.R. #9, the Jedi Master Atris says tells the Unknown hooded Jedi that the Order is still trying to rebuild their ranks of Jedi Knights, also, I don't think that when Dorak tells the soon-to-be-redeemed Revan that the former Revan and Malak were recently proclaimed Jedi Knights when they entered the Mandalorian Wars, that he means 2 or 3 years before they entered the war they were knighted. And the Jedi already knew the suffering that the Mandalorians were causing the Galaxy, all it took was one Jedi to rebel and say that he wanted to save the innocents fom the Mandalorians, and soon others followed. That doesn't take that much trust or influence, he might have eventually gained the trust of those Jedi who followed him and Malak to war.--Jedi Kasra 20:59, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
  • The Masters were already going to kill them. They THOUGHT that they were going to be knighted, because their Masters had their lightsabers. That was a sign to them. It wasn't untill they noticed that Zane's master had his lightsaber that they weren't to be knighted. Plus, it must have taken TONS of influence to convince the Jedi. I mean, you dont say, 'hey, wanna kill some Mandalorians?' It would've taken tons of time to get the Jedi to be convinced that they should follow a mere Boy, barely a Knight, into battle. Plus, Master Atris tells the Unknown hooded Jedi that they're trying to build their ranks doesn't mean that they would go against tradition and Train Padawans into Knights in mere weeks. Revan was able to, yes, but he was already taught the stuff. Darthan the destroyer 16:43, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
    • There have been numerous incidents where the cause alone has lead many to follow a figure-head. Influence has little, if anything to do with it. {{SUBST:User:Jasca Ducato/Sig}} 18:54, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
• That's what I've been trying to say all along. Unless the person who wants to lead them is a 8-year-old Padawan, which Revan was not, it takes little influence to persuade others to follow them in a conflict to try to save the innocent. They would have followed Revan if he was an 18-year old and they would have followed him if he was an 80-year-old. At that time, it wasn't the age that mattered, it was the one person, no matter if he was proclaimed a Knight the day before or was already an aged Jedi Master, that had the guts to rebel against the Council's apparent inaction and go to the Outer Rim to save innocents. It's kind of like the concept of "Monkey see, monkey do". They saw Revan rebel for a noble cause, they gained the courage to rebel for a noble cause, just like Jasca Ducato said.--Jedi Kasra 04:06, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
• No. The Jedi would've never left if not for Revan, yes. But would they be able to get hundreds of jedi? no. That takes large amounts of persuasion and influence. [[darthan the destroyer]] 7:55, 19 June (UTC)
  • Stop with the influence thing already. All Revan needed to do was convince a few Jedi, then more would follow their example, many were already involved before Revan. Revan didn't need to be the most influential person in the galaxy. Deal with it. Besides, your whole influence arguement is OR, so it means nothing. {{SUBST:User:Jasca Ducato/Sig}} 18:35, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Ya, one or two Jedi. It was Revan who got all these othere Jedi to fight. Malak helped a little, and was Revans first follower as his best friend. So, Jasca, yes there must be a little bit of freiken influence to do that. Pretty obvious. And you need to persuade some Jedi to also come with you. Revan did what no other Jedi did. A full scale, "follow me, and we'll be known forever." You forget, a lot of the Jedi who followed were pretty young, or at the least in their 20's-30's. So, am I forgetting one thing? Oh ya. Influence helped Revan. And I don't understand what you mean by is OR. explain that. Darthan the destroyer 14:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
    • OR is original research, which means that whatever you argue, we're not putting it in the freakin' article. Jasca Ducato _{Sith Council}
    • Fine. But I think we got off subject. We were talking of Revans age. As I said, he cant have been more than 25, but no less than 19. And Jedi Kasra is probably right, that Revan was taken at a young age. (As I remember, Bastila still retains memories of her mother, even though she's 18.) But in the KOTOR comics the Apprentices weren't going to be Knighted. They THOUGHT they were, since all of their masters had sabers. It wasn't untill they saw Zayne's master had his saber that they realised the truth. Darthan the destroyer 00:18, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
• There isn't any canonical evidence that Bastila is 18 years old in 3,956 B.B.Y. Remember that she warned her fellow Jedi against joining Revan and Malak in 3,963 B.B.Y., and if she was 18 in K.O.T.O.R., she would be 11 in 3,963 B.B.Y. and thus not old enough to warn any Jedi about anything. So I would put her around Revan's possible age, maybe 24 - 26 years old, but not any younger or older. Besides, in my opinion, I get tired of the "oooh, the man has to be older than the woman" attitude. That's why I like Anakin and Padme's marriage, not that Bastila and Revan got married, but they were in love, so.--Jedi Kasra 10:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Revan Strengthening the Republic

Hello, I'm sorry if this has been suggested before, I'm new here.

Could someone please add a bit onto the Revan page about Kreia's (and possibly other people's) theory about Revan not wanting to destroy the Republic but to unite it (there is something about this on www.wikipedia.org - if you search for revan and read the part titled "Revan's Legacy"). I think it is a valid point about Revan's actions. —Unsigned comment by 86.133.60.96 (talk • contribs)

Sorry, but thats a theory. Most people believed, i think, that Revan was gonna rule the universe with the site empire. Kreia was stubborn. Revan was her best student, and she probably didn't wanna think that he was real evil. Darthan the destroyer 22:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• I think that Kreia's comments provide a fairly convincing argument for explaining exactly why Revan fell to the dark side, but she was almost definitely wrong in thinking that Revan never fell at all.--Sentry 21:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I think Kreia was just arguing semantics. She wasn't saying he didn't go dark, she was just pointing out that Revan didn't fall but rather turned. A fall is accidental whilst a turn is deliberate. Anakin, for example, didn't fall. He was falling - sure - but ultimately he turned. The same principle applies to Revan, or at least, Kreia seems to think it does. Atris is an example of a character who fell, Revan (supposedly) isn't. Doesn't make him any less evil or darksidey. That's my two cents anyway.(Ulicus 15:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC))

As a side note: Kreia's revelations were never about Revan protecting/saving the Republic. They were about Revan believing he was protecting/saving the Galaxy. He wanted to supplant the Republic with his own Sith Empire. Leaving it's underlying infrastructure intact would just make the transition easier. He was basically trying to do what Palpatine did except through literal, rather than political, conquest.(Ulicus 15:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC))

Appearences in KotoR comics

I was reading the 15th issue of the Knights of the old Republic. There was that scene, where the mandalorians nuked the surface of Serroco, All over the Galaxy jedi felt the destruction, like at the Order 66, or the destruction of Alderaan. There was a caped figure at forest enviroment, with a young man in red armor who looked like Malak. This guy told his master that he felt the destruction of the planet, while his master was having a great pain, but we couldn't see the masters face. Could it be, that this caped man was Revan? Alpha 1286 19:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• Likely, but it's just speculation at this point. Jasca Ducato _{Sith Council} ^{Sith Campaign} 19:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
  • We have an article on that person: Unknown hooded Jedi. - Sikon 03:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
    • It could as well be Kreia and Sion, although Revan is more likely to be the hooded guy, since he was snooping around the frontlines without authorisation. The main question about this for me is the following: since it was the destruction of Cathar and genocide of the native species that led the Jedi into the fray, and we have already heard from Squint that they are going to war, how can he and mr.hood-dude be found on an unscathed Cathar with catfolk walking around? I think I ran across a JJM comment about this in a forum saying that it would make sense in the end, but I don't see how... Chagrian 19:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Can we get rid of the "possible Revan" yet?

The guy from the TV commercial is wearing Dooku's cape over normal Jedi robes. Unless you want to claim that Revan hailed from Serenno and that they never changed their fashion statements for four millenia, that is seriously not him Lalala la 08:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• No. We can't say those are Dooku robes. It's a brown piece of cloth with a chain attached. That doesn't make it "Serenno robes". --Redemption^20pxTalk 18:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Brown robe with chain attached is exactly what Dooku wore. But more to the point, it's pretty obvious it was intended to be a publicity thing with Jedi/Sith apparel borrowed from the most recent Star Wars movie at the time, namely AOTC Lalala la 06:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
    • How is it obvious. It was on an advertisement for KotOR. Jasca Ducato 11:37, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
      • Advertisements cater to real world people. You're making a trailer emphasizing the light/dark duality. You have a character wearing Jedi and Sith robes to emphasize that duality. You grab the closest Jedi and Sith robes you can find, from the Episode II set Lalala la 23:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
        • That's canon for ya. Jasca Ducato 08:49, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
          • Well advertisements aren't exactly canon to begin with IIRC. But even if they were, there's nothing to say that this one example seeks to depict the main character. The portrayal of good versus evil is symbolic of the choice every Jedi must make, not just Revan. That, along with the Dooku/Obi-Wan robes leads me to conclude that he's a made-up character that somewhat represents each and every Jedi, not any one particular individual Lalala la 21:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
            • And that is all valid reason to keep it as a "possible apparance" in the BTS section. Charlii 22:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunatly, it is a 'Possible appearance.' It doesn't have a sign that is pointing at him and saying "Look at him, he's the main character". So he will be a possible appearance. Darthan the destroyer 12:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Changing the name

After Malak reveals you're Revan, your fake name sitll stays. My friend thinks the name should be changed back to Revan after. He used a savegame editor and made a save right after the revelation so the name is Revan again. He thinks I should do the same. I'd like people to tell me what they think.

• This is not the place for such discussions. Jasca Ducato ^{(Talk to the Dark Lord)} 15:50, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Actually, as much as I hate to admit it, it does belong. He is proposing changing the name. Unfortunately, we can't. We don't have an official name. That and everyone refers to Revan as Revan in K2 including Carth and Canderous, who would without a doubt had referred to him in his fake name since that's the name that they knew before the revelation. It's pretty easy to assume that Revan admitted to he was Revan. --Redemption^20pxTalk 22:25, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Actually Redemption, I believe he was asking if he should change his name in-game. Not the name of the article. Jasca Ducato ^{(Talk to the Dark Lord)} 08:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
  • ??? his name is Revan. It doesnt change in the game because that that's the name you made for him. Darthan the destroyer 14:57, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Revan's possible surname

Revan's possible surname may be Skywalker, due to his extreme command of the force! —Unsigned comment by 68.80.191.67 (talk • contribs)

• How about not, okay? Also, how about stopping this pointless and unencyclopedic speculation before it gets worse? - Sikon 15:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
• It could also be Hitler, McQueen, Klink, Solo, Dooku, or Swakchijoomata. What's your point? 125.238.198.2 04:56, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
• Nahg I'm going to have to go with Frank as his surname. —Unsigned comment by 75.212.162.137 (talk • contribs)
• Strong in the Force doesn't make you a Skywalker. That was completely random. there are plenty or force users that are strong non-skywalkers ex: Mace Windu, Kyle Katarn, Yoda, Desann, Kyp Durron and so on... [[:File:XEPE.jpg|150px]] Say it like it is... Or it was. 04:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
• Also, I'd like to point out that Anakin Skywalker's great ability of the Force is due to the manipulation in the Force that concieved him, made by either Darth Plagueis or Darth Sidious. And through the bloodline it's likely that other Skywalkers after Anakin recieved their Force abilities through their heritage. The Skywalker bloodline doesn't have anything special about it really, nor should it. -TheLostJedi 00:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
• Oh, so if your strong in the force, you should be a Skywalker? That's mainly what your saying my good sir, and it makes no sense. Darthan the destroyer 05:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Wtf is wrong with you...... Anakin skywalker was concived by the force. He has no past relatives form his "force side". his mother possibly was not force sensitive also.Star wars 12:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Known Apprentices and Bane

Just wondering: what do you guys think about listing Darth Bane as one of Revan's apprentices? Whilst it was via a holocron, it was still Revan who was instructing him - indeed, Revan was the most influential teacher in Dessel's sith career and his article reflects that... so why not Revan's? Discuss at your leisure :) (Ulicus 13:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC))

• You have a good point there. Although we'd have to make a point of the fact that it was indirect. {{SUBST:User:Jasca Ducato/Sig}} 14:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• That's a great idea! I agree with Jasca Ducato about listing Bane as a indirect apprentice, though. So, I think we should do it. Why don't we ask someone like QuentinGeorge or Atarumaster88?--Jedi Kasra 19:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• I also think that Bane is considered a indirect apprentice--User:The K.O. King 24 July 2007
  • That makes SOME sense. Darthan the destroyer 20:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• We'd definitely reference that it was via holocron, just as the Darth Bane article does.(Ulicus 23:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC))
• So, let's do it.--Jedi Kasra 00:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • No. If we're going to do that, then Freedon Nadd also gets Bane as an apprentice. Listening to a recording of someone is not the same as training under them. QuentinGeorge 00:42, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
    • I wouldn't have any problems with Freedon Nadd having Bane listed an apprentice. Ah well, I don't agree with the decision, since Bane was taught by Revan through his holocron and is the heir to Revan's knowledge, but I'll go with it. Revan is listed as one of Bane's masters at the minute, so you might want to remove that too. (Ulicus 10:07, 1 June 2007 (UTC))
      • Heir to Revan's knowledge my backside. Bane, despite the idolisation of Revan fanboys, is no more Revan's heir than he is Nadd's. QuentinGeorge 06:19, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Bane recieved what we're led to believe is a great portion of Revan's Sith knowledge, so how is saying that he's not the heir to Revan's knowledge at all true? Not the designated heir, sure, but definitely the de facto one. And Bane was heir to Freedon Nadd's knowledge (what of it was in his holocron anyway) so, your final point confuses me to no end. I consider Revan to be the most influential teacher in Bane's career primarily because it was after his aquisition of Revan's holocron that he decided to purge the entire Brotherhood of Darkness. I certainly don't mean to demean Nadd's contributions to Bane's knowledge/power.(Ulicus 14:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC))

• Though, having said that, I hate Bane of the Sith with the fiery passion of a thousand suns. Path of Destruction was far from perfect, but I much preferred Karpyshan's interpretation of Bane to Anderson's. I'd like to see the tale of Bane getting his grubby mits on Nadd's holocron (and those dumb Orbalisks) redone to be honest. (Ulicus 15:00, 4 June 2007 (UTC))
  • And I'd prefer that PoD being blasted in the stratosphere, never seen again. We don't all get what we want. QuentinGeorge 06:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I tend to say that Bane wasn't directly an apprentice of Revan. Had he been visited by the spirit of Revan, that'd be one thing, but a holocron is a different breed of bantha altogether. Revan and Nadd helped teach Bane, yes, but apprentice is a very strong word, especially since Bane never made any claims of apprenticeship to Revan. Besides, then we'd be saying Wormie was Siosk Bass's apprentice. Atarumaster88 20px ^{(Talk page)} 15:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
• I don't see much difference between learning from a ghost and a holocron really. Kyle Katarn didn't really "study beneath" Rahn, he was just given bits and pieces of information here and there - yet Rahn is still listed as one of Kyle's masters. That said, this issue is hardly one I am obsessed with, and I can accept that as an idea it has been shot down :) (Ulicus 23:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC))
  • Rahn appeared to Katarn >multiple< times, and was actually interacting with Katarn as a sentient being. Bane simply viewed a recording of a long dead Sith Lord. Totally different. QuentinGeorge 06:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
• Actually, Revan taught Bane about the Rule of two. So... Bane isn't his apprentice Per se. Perhaps we can go as far as to say that Bane succeded Revans Rule of two, but an apprentice to Revan. No. Darthan the destroyer 20:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
• In Path of Destruction Revan is breifly refered to as Bane's "virtual Master" interestingly, the book capitalises the "M" in Master, which might be significant. Plus the book does say that Bane learned more from Revan than he did from his masters on Korriban, and and that all Revan's knowledge would belong to him. 141.154.165.49 03:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't frigging care what wantastic words are thrown around. Bane views the holocron once, gets a spiel on why its not wise to share power (ie, the Rule of >One< not the Rule of Two) and then the holocron is destroyed, never to be viewed again. One lesson, delivered long after someone is dead, is far from a master-apprentice relationship. QuentinGeorge 06:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
    • PS If anyone's wondering why there was so many edits by me here is that my h4t of Revan drove me to write something which wasn't fair, accurate nor particularly nice. Hence, I baleeted it so as not to look silly. QuentinGeorge 06:22, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
      • Bane got more than just one lesson.. Bane studied the holocron for weeks according to the book, and wrote all of it down. Additionally bane did get the Rule of Two from Revan. I've got the book right here and just looked it up, and this is how Bane came up with the Rule of Two: First, according to the book, just as Revan had taught him, Bane destroyed the holcron becuase he had learned everything he could from it. Then, while meditating on the Sith secrets he had learned, Bane breifly considered the Rule of One, but quickly disgarded the idea after remembering these words from Revan: if the leader grows week, another must rise to seize the mantle. After Bane remembered those words, he realized that the rule of One would never work, and came to the conclusion that the Sith should number "exactly two". So Bane went from the "rule of one" to the Rule of Two in a matter of moments. He literly creates the Rule of Two less than a paragraph after disgarding the idea of the Rule of One. So Revan did give Bane the idea of the Rule of Two, becuase Bane was going to use the Rule of One until he remembered Revan's words, which made him quickly disgard the idea becuase it would never work, so he created the Rule of Two instead. I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, but just presenting the facts as shown in a canon source. 151.203.184.111 14:19, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

QuentinGeorge, a holocron does not contain a "recording" it contains a gatekeeper: an artifical personality capable of teaching - though I'm unaware if they possess true artificial sentience.

It's fine if you want to argue that Bane should not be considered an apprentice of Revan, but it's not fine to let your dislike of Revan get to the point where you're dismissing the character's contribution to Bane's development. As the above poster said, Bane interacted with Revan's gatekeeper for weeks (actually, you'll have to let me double check that. I remember that being the case but I could be mistaken) and was certainly given more than one lesson. Bane states that the information contained within goes beyond the entire Korriban Academy's archives.

Is Karpyshyn further plugging the character he developed? Undoubtedly... but it doesn't become less-canon because of it. At least we didn't have Bane prepping himself to Force-push a moon :P

Anyway I've said, I'm not particularly bothered if we list Bane as an apprentice of Revan or not, but in the discussion around it, you seem to be letting your dislike of Darth Stu get the better of you (as I see you've acknowledged) Try to relax a bit, peace :) (Ulicus 15:28, 8 June 2007 (UTC))

Ok, I've looked into holocrons a bit more.

According to the article on this site:

"The holocron was able to capture the appearance and cognitive networks of the holocron's owner, and transform this into a three-dimensional hologram. This gatekeeper acted as a guide through the holocron's store of information, as a search and recovery engine with a more personal touch. These gatekeepers could relate stories from the holocron's archives to events in the life of the one who activated the holocron. Jedi gatekeepers could sense the ability and level of a Jedi, and offer or restrict information accordingly — so that Padawans were not shown information too advanced and dangerous for their basic stage. However, Sith holocrons usually allowed the activator unlimited access to its entire dark side repository."

Also, according to Charles19 (from JCF), the Power of the Jedi sourcebook says that holocrons are created via a process of infusing crystals with a portion of a Jedi/Sith's soul. After this process, the holocron's gatekeeper reacts and interacts in the same way as the Jedi/Sith would (at the time of the holocron's creation, that is) and is just as capable as any living teacher.

If the above is correct (and correct me if it's not) then Darth Revan is technically a teacher of Darth Bane despite their impersonal relationship. So too is Freedon Nadd. (Ulicus 19:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC))

• Then that means that Revan is INDEED one of Bane's masters. The Jedi and Sith Orders used holocrons to store lessons on lightsaber combat, the Force, dark and light philosophies, etc. In Path of Destruction, Bane spent weeks studying from Darth Revan's holocron and he didn't want to put the holocron down, he was writing and copying Revan's dark side knowledge on copies of flimsi. It would probably take a while to learn about the Thought Bomb, how to use the Force to cure, or rather delay, poison and other uses of the Force. I think it was Eeth Koth who said that the Jedi would live on through their holocrons if someone were to destroy the Jedi Order. There would be no use for holocrons if someone could not become a Jedi Knight through a holocron such as the Great Holocron or Sith Lord through a holocron like Darth Revan's.--Jedi Kasra 21:50, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Question

This has been annoying me since I read this, is Revan the character in KOTOR? As in the main character, you? —Unsigned comment by Ares1994 (talk • contribs) Thanks, even though I beat the game a long time ago and I forgot.

• Yes he is. Green Tentacle ^(Talk) 21:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Ouch, someone just got spoiled :P. Shouldn't have come here until you completed the game really.... (Ulicus 23:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC))

Sound Clip

I just listened to the quote from Bastila in the introduction, and I'm about 90% sure she says "He will have gone . . . ," not, "You will have gone . . . ." I haven't played the game for a while, so I don't know, maybe the subtitles say "you." However, I remember a few times when they don't exactly match character dialog. I suppose this isn't really that big a deal, though. CaptainPellaeon1138 03:12, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

The Subtitles will say "You" in the place of your name. When talking about Revan, they talk about Him acording to your gender. (ex. She, He, Him, Her etc) Darthan the destroyer 14:28, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

possible Light-Sider?

While there's obviously a lot of evidence that Revan actually fell to the Dark Side, it is notable that Kriea (and the Exile, if you choose the option) suggests that because he forged the Sith and attacked the Republic to defend against the True Sith (what with leaving the main infrastructure of the Republic intact, when it was strategically unsound to do so in wartime), not out of revenge or hatred, it is possible that Revan never actually fell to the Dark Side. Again, heavily suggested in KotOR2. Might be worth a mention in the article...not that trusting that dirty hag ever did any good...68.102.179.135 06:13, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

• Erm, it already is. {{SUBST:User:Jasca Ducato/Sig}} 18:48, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Possible Appearance

On the unknown hooded jedi's page the picture of him or her sensing the deaths, those gloves are very similar to Revan's. I think that's a another reason that he or she may be Revan. —Unsigned comment by 74.123.169.110 (talk • contribs)

• If the U.H.J. is a female, than "she" is not Revan. Plus, Revan looks like he has something over his gloves, and the U.H.J. doesn't.--Jedi Kasra 16:52, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

What Is Revan's Canon Class? Guardian, Consular, Sentinel?

It seems to me that he would be Guardian but it could be like the case with yoda, since he has such a strong control of the force and be a consular and just be an increadibly gifted lightsaber dualist-Arcath 04:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)Arcath

• Not determined. QuentinGeorge 05:08, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
• And remember, just because Revan's appiration in the vision to the Jedi Exile used two blades doesn't make Revan a Jar'Kai user and it doesn't mean that he {Revan} actually used two lightsabers or was a practitioner of Jar'Kai pre-redeemed and post-redeemed, because he is just a stupid dark-side appiration and not the real man. Dark-side appirations do not reflect the real person, as in the case of Jacen Solo fighting the dark-side appiration of Luke, False-Luke had a beard, and the real Luke did not. Also, note that when you first enter the room where Ludo Kressh's tomb is, it shows the dark-side appiration of the Exile, when we all know she could not have been a Dark Jedi. She only had two options when she ordered the activation of the Mass Shadow Generator- die, of cut herself off from the Force. We all know what she chose. And in the Exile's article, it says that she went to war to protect innocents, not for any other reason.--Jedi Kasra 16:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we have enough material to make a traits and personality section

While Revans personality during the game is hazy, we have plenty to work with when it comes to making a personality and traits section for the Mandalorian Wars and most of the Jedi Civil wars if we go off the words of Kreia, Dorak, the Deciple, etc. I haven't played the games in a long time, and I never did get Kreia to tell me everything she knew about him, so I'm not sure how qualified I am, but it would be one way to improve teh page. Jedigeneral

Kreia and the Exile

I've heard rumors that Kreia is Revan's mother... and that The Jedi Exile was Revan's child... anyone know anything about any of this? FemaleCommando25

• Yes. It's false. Jasca Ducato _{Sith Council} 09:24, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

New main Image

[[:File:DarthRevanart.jpg|thumb|right|180px]] I know this has been discussed before, but brian ching has published a new full color version of this image and (I think) confirmed that it's for the future Kotor comics which Revan will be appearing in. With that in mind I dont suppose it's possible to change this to the main image, if not put it somewhere in the article.-KickAssJedi 13:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

• Please provide the exact source so we could verify its origin. - TopAce ^(Talk) 13:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
• I actually have the full picture as one of my desktop wallpapers. I think it would be a good idea to use this image instead of the current one. I don't understand what's the big deal with sources with this picture, it shows Revan as he appeared in K.O.T.O.R., nad it shows him with one lightsaber, the way Revan should be depicted, not with two, because the Jar'Kai form is overrated, and Revan in The Sith Lords game is not really Revan, but an apparation, even the Obsidian developers say that the vision is exactly what it is, just a vision, and not the real Revan.--Jedi Kasra 15:13, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Yep that's exactly what I thought, I have been saying it for ages the current main picture does not depict Revan, youre right about sources aswell its a fuss about nothing, the image is artwork done by an official LucasFilm artist. and it depicts revan as he is most well known without contradicting canon. (I only cropped it for the purpose of the infobox.)-KickAssJedi 16:53, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Unfortunately, until we see Revan (clad in full black robes) in the KOTOR comics drawn by Ching, the image can't be used. Since it is technically, fan-art. Patience. --Redemption^20pxTalk 17:38, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Here is the source for the image on Brian Ching's Blog. You'll also notice I uploaded the full high res image. - JMAS 17:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

But surley Brian Ching isnt a fan, he is an employee, isnt anything done by him offiial or as good as.KickAssJedi 18:32, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

• He is an employee but the fact still remains. If the sketch was an unused cover or panel, then yeah. But this was just something he drew for someone. We can't accept this anymore then we can accept a sketch done by him of Luke, Han or someone else. --Redemption^20pxTalk 18:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Since when are personal blogs canon, anyway? - TopAce ^(Talk) 08:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Jar'Kai or not Jar'Kai?

Why does everybody want Revan to use two lightsabers? I never understood what the big deal is with two lightsabers. I mean, c'mon people. I'll give you guys a few reasons why he will most likely end up with one lightsaber.

1. Most of the people who played the game probably used either Jar'Kai or a saberstaff.

2. Revan in the appearance in K.O.T.O.R. II is just a dark-side apparation, not a reflection of the actual Revan, if you note in the first game, all your character's visions of your past life as Revan depicted him with one lightsaber, except for the one with Revan unmasking himself, where it looks like he doesn't have any lightsaber at all. Even Duron Qel-Droma's vision depicts Revan with one lightsaber

3. The Dark Lord of the Sith before Revan, Exar Kun, was a master of one lightsaber, Jar'Kai, and saberstaff combat. The Sith Lords Kas'im and Darth Maul are also masters of all three styles. This is my personal opinion, but Darth Krayt might be a master of all three combat styles, too. Don't go adding that to the double-bladed lightsaber combat article, fanwankers.

4. This reason kind of goes along with the reason above. Do we really need another stereotypical Darth Maul-like combat machine? Not saying he shouldn't be a Jedi Guardian, even though his class shouldn't be canonized. Just saying he shouldn't be a combat machine like Maul. It doesn't exactly fit his character.

Anyway, I hope you guys agree with these reasons.--Jedi Kasra 11:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I think Revan was taught all the forms of lightsaber combat. The only big thing with Jar'Kai is that you can use two lightsabers (i.e. Two Weapon Fighting). So I doubt Revan was taught just one type of saber combat, it's just that everyone is going crazy because of the KotOR II thing. Darthan the destroyer 14:59, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, but like I said, being a master of all three combat styles is too generic. Darth Tyranus was a original because he refused to use anything else but one blade, Darth Sidious might have been a Jar'Kai user considering Darth Maul learned Jar'Kai and Nick Gillard said that Sidious mastered all the combat styles. One doesn't need to know Niman or Jar'Kai in order to use two blades masterfully, such as Mace Windu and Depa Billaba. So, I'm just saying, why does Revan NEED to have learned all three styles? And about the KOTOR II thing, that wasn't really Revan, it was just a apparation.--Jedi Kasra 19:50, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comments on Jedi Kasra's arguments: 1) I have 50 dollars on that most people played KotOR2 with a male Jedi. If that is so, player preferences doesn't have any impact on canon. 2) This is a valuable argument, and hard to go against. If it turns out that the canon Revan used a single saber, this will be the best explanation for that. 3) What does that have to do with Revan? 4) You can be a combat machine without using a saberstaff or two lightsabers. One other comment for Kasra's post above: The question is not who CAN use two blades (your Mace and Depa argument), but how effectively they could fight with that. When some forumers asked me why I preferred one blade in KotOR—hence leaving one of my hands empty—then I said that using as many blades as allowed does not make one necessarily stronger, or a better killing machine. Why wouldn't police officers have two pistols, or soldiers two AK-47s? Why wouldn't all tanks have four barrels? And why is that the decisive majority of Jedi did use one blade? - TopAce ^(Talk) 08:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• I'm not saying that he shouldn't be a combat machine, Mace Windu was a combat machine with one blade, hell, Mace was a combat machine without ANY lightsaber. To me, true mastery of the lightsaber does not come when a Jedi or a Sith has mastered the three styles of combat mentioned above, it is when one can defeat multiple opponents, whether the enemies have two blades, saberstaffs, or one lightsaber, with just ONE lightsaber. Dooku was able to accomplish this, as could Yoda, Mace Windu, and Obi-Wan Kenobi. And by the way TopAce, I agree with you on your stance on one blade in these games, two weapons doesn't guarantee victory, I just wish that Obsidian made a "Superior Dueling" set of feats for those of us who played as a Weapon Master in The Sith Lords, maybe Bioware or Obsidian or whoever makes the third game can do that, and also, if you head over to Obsidian's site, in the K.O.T.O.R. II section, it will say that Revan's appearance in the game was just an apparation. Read the other sections in Talk: Revan and you will see that most of the users say that Revan in KO.T.O.R. II is an apparation.--Jedi Kasra 20:34, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
  • This isn't mace Windu we're talking about. It's Revan. When playing the game, it's the fact that you can do 2 weapon fighting that counts. Yeah, you can use single blade, but it all depends on YOU. We could say that Anikan Skywalker was a user of Jar'Kai, as shown in the Dooku fight in episode 2, but that doesn't make it true. I'm sorry, and I agree that it isn't right that we should say he is a master of Jar'Kair, but there will be those who say he will be. And I say he can use two or one lightsaber in fighting. Darthan the destroyer 15:25, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Action Figure

Can somebody upload a good picture of Darth Revan's action figure? Grievous' action figure pic is on his article, so I think Revan, {and Malak, too.} should have his action figure shown on the article.--Jedi Kasra 20:48, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

It's amazing!!!!
I love you all

• To whoever put that up there, please sign your name, and if you love it so much, then upload the image.--Jedi Kasra 15:49, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi everybody here

I'm a frash boy here, Revan is my favorate man in the movie

• Stop posting irrelevant posts please. Atarumaster88 20px ^{(Talk page)} 15:59, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
• Well, I put out the call for assistance on kotorfanmedia. However, we're not sure any assistance we can give would be welcomed, considering the comments I've seenm here.
  • Any assistance made in good faith is welcome on Wookieepedia; however, the community has a strict no-nonsense policy in regards to article talk pages. Thus, the reminder by Atarumaster88 regarding irrelevant posts on this talk page. Thanks for your interest in Wookieepedia! --School of Thrawn 101 05:11, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Plus, Revan wasn't in the movies. Jasca Ducato _{Sith Council} 07:34, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Yeah, incae you didn't notice Revan is this week's improvement drive, so if there is anyway you guys can help, {Canon info only!} please do. And please sign your comments.--Jedi Kasra 03:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Main Image question

Couldn't we change the main image to this one? This shows him in the canonical ending of the game, and I think it's safe to assume that Revan didn't use a red crystal in his lightsaber to defeat Malak.

File:Shadows_and_Light.jpg|150px

Just wondering.--Jedi Kasra 03:58, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

• It's a bad image so...no. We cannot. Unless you want a consensus mess to prove it then go right ahead and start one. --Redemption^20pxTalk 04:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

It looks cool. It's just too... blue. If there was red, then okay. Darthan the destroyer

I would of edited it myself...

It is stated that in all of KOTOR's cut-scenes, revan has a single blade. This is in-correct, as all but one cinematic has him with no light-saber and all of the in-engine cinematic have him with whatever the player equips. It is not 'all' of the cinematics that have him with a single blade, it is ONE, the scene were he is captured.

The statement in the article is mis-leading.65.27.139.162 07:19, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Can someone fix the statement? For some reason, the 'improvement drive' won't let me edit it.

File:Revan2.jpg|(the single cut-scene which shows his single saber)65.27.139.162 07:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Opening (I'm presuming that's where your screenshot is coming from) is without -a-doubt-canonical. Everything else from that point on is influenced in some way by game mechanics, which necessarily aren't. Firebird 10:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

• Uh, all of the cutscenes, except for the one where your character takes off Revan's mask, in which he has no lightsaber, only show Revan with a single blade.--Jedi Kasra 20:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Canon face

will revans canon face be reaveled in the comics, seeing as he is almost undeniably the Revanchist leader.

• That's only speculation that he's the Revanchist leader, though I believe they are the same. As for his face, no one can say for sure. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 20px 20:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I think its less speculation just unconfirmed canon, personally im inclained to think his canon face is the anakin lookalike with the long hair.--\\Captain KAJ// 20:49, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

• There is no such thing as "unconfirmed canon". It's either canon or speculation, and this is pure speculation. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 20px 23:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)