Talk: Darth Nihilus

Article milestones Date Process Result June 1, 2007 Good article nomination Success June 9, 2007 Good article by Sethrolland November 4, 2008 Good article review Removed November 23, 2008 Former Good article December 24, 2008 Good article nomination Failure May 23, 2009 Failed Good article nominee July 23, 2009 Featured article nomination Failure September 27, 2009 Failed Featured article nominee September 17, 2012 Featured article nomination Success February 9, 2013 Featured article by NaruHina November 5, 2017 Featured article review Removed January 28, 2018 Former Featured article

Current status: Former Featured article

'Force Channeling Mask'?

Is there more info on this?Tocneppil 21:58, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Uncertainty concerning events on the ravager

In the Jedi Vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force it is said that either Nihilus killed/was killed by Visas or was killed by Brianna. I don't understand why exactly this point is not clear. As far as I know the book is "In-Universe", but why would the real authors describe the event so vaguely? Nanook 00:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

• Remember that the passage of the book describing the encounter is written "in character" as if by another ficticious character, who does not know the exact details. The authors probably decided to keep these details vague, because they refer to how a single player plays a computer game and so the particulars may vary greatly. This is probably also why the authors mention Brianna, even though there is no possibility of her killing Nihilus, as the group confronting Nihilus is fixed as the exile, Visas and Mandalore in the game. Jediphile 10:06, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
• Also remember that canonically, Brianna can't even join the Exile due to the fact that she is canonically female, and the Disciple is the one who joins her. Linkstarwars 06:04, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Dreadlocks?

I was browsing the Rebelscum forums, and in the thread for the 'Sith Legacy' Evolutions pack, there are pictures showing that Nihilus' hood is removable, and he seems to have dreadlocks! http://threads.rebelscum.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hasbro30th&Number=3081301&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=5 Sith Alchemy 101 15:29, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

• Dude, sweet! Presumed final words translated, "Exile mon! Rasta!" MarxismIsLove 00:23, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
• Haha, I always thought more along the lines of, "Exile mon! You straight wicked broda, one love mon. Respect." =P Linkstarwars 06:05, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Data Problem

We have a confict here. According to the article:

"Although his role in the wars is a mystery, it is very likely that he may have been among the faction of Jedi that defied the Jedi Council and followed Revan to war."

However, according to the side-bar he was affiliated with the Jedi, the Revanchists, etc.

Thoughts? Holokin 06:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

• "Jedi" and "The Revanchists" should be removed unless he's revealed to have been one. Grand Moff Tranner ^(Comlink) 11:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
• Thank God, somebody finally removed that! I removed those two organizations from the infobox quite a few times, and somebody kept putting them back up there.--Jedi Kasra 04:30, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Probably Human

File:DarthNihilusarm.jpg|thumb|left|Fig.1: A clearly bare, unrobed arm File:Nihilusnose.jpg|thumb|Fig.2: Darth Nihilus's nose

I'm not sure if anyone else has commented on this before, but I've noticed that in one image - the one in which Nihilus is fighting Atris - that Nihilus has bare arms (Fig. 1). Since it's concept art it may not have a great influence on anything at all, as it may be considered non-canon, but nevertheless I think it shows that Nihilus may be a bit more Human than some people have been speculating (and I admit that I previously made a suggestion that he may be Sith). As the image only shows the underside of his hand clearly - which has the same pigmentation for all Humans regardless of ethnicity - it's difficult to come to any further conclusions on this. However, by looking at his nose in another picture (Fig.2); which has a clearly brown coloring, and taking into consideration the dreadlocks on the Hasbro toy, I'd say it's fairly likely that Nihilus either is - or was planned to be - a dark skinned Human. --Kessel 21:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

• • Very interesting about Fig 1...for Fig 2, I've always assumed that he had a black cloth covering his face. BTW, I've sourced the images. Drewton 22:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Could someone post a pic here of the action figure with its hood removed. - –K.A.J^{•T•C•E•} 22:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
      • Link to Rebelscum.com Drewton 22:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
        • It seems like he's a Kiffar. It's just speculation, but his dreadlocks remind me of Quinlan Vos's dreadlocks. Grand Moff Tranner ^(Comlink) 23:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
          • We cannot deduce that he's a Kiffar because of his dreadlocks. First of all, if we knew his canon face we would see the yellow marking, but even that wouldn't be enough. Maybe some evident telemetric ability would help us more. Coming to think of it, that's all just speculation that do not belong to a Wook talk page. Nanook 00:08, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
            • Also, Jariah Syn has dreadlocks, though he's not Kiffar. Drewton 01:51, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
              • I know we can't just say he's a Kiffar. I was just making an observation. My phrasing was not the best. Grand Moff Tranner ^(Comlink) 02:27, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
                • I understand what you meant; I was just saying that having dreadlocks doesn't mean he was necessarily Kiffar. The darker skin in the first picture could be just the lighting. Drewton ^{(Drewton's Holocron)} 02:30, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I've reconsidered. I believe it unlikely that he's a Kiffar (or any other subrace to be frank), as so far Nihilus has shown no cultural links or any evidence of psychometry. Thus, designating him as such would only really detract from his character without adding anything worthwhile: for a start it would have to be explained why a) the designers had made him a Kiffar yet made little use of this obscure detail, and b) made use of a species which does not enter into Republic history for another 961 years.

Nihilus does not seem to be a Kiffu before his time (all the ones we have heard of are from the Rise of the Empire era). Thus, I can only assume that Nihilus is, like Sion and Kreia, "just a man - nothing more". --Kessel 10:25, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

At least this is the end of the Zayne/Nihilus fanshit. - –K.A.J^{•T•C•E•} 11:37, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

• Oops, didn't know that the Kiffar didn't appear in galactic society around 3000 BBY. Grand Moff Tranner ^(Comlink) 14:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, does anyone know if "a man, nothing more" is confirmed to be canon, instead of "a thousand graveyard planets and an eternity of hate and hunger"? Drewton ^{(Drewton's Holocron)} 14:23, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Since the Exile is officially light side, we generally consider the light-side option to be canon. Edit: Really? Well, I must have assumed wrong. In which case, I have frankly no idea which is the canon quote. --Kessel 13:47, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

• I've played as a light-sider, and it's dependant on what you ask, not what side of the Force you are on. I've gotten both answers from Visas.--Jedi Kasra 00:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
• Again, this is like the silly argument that Revan was canonically a white bald guy because his action figure is a white bald man. It's just a figure, and they needed to make something to fill the quota, instead of just putting nothing there for a head. Hasbro makes a toy, and it may be canon? Guys... seriously? I suppose Darth Vader had a pink lightsaber and Malak had yellow on his armor? Information on the back of figure boxes is generally canon, but the figures themselves? Not necessarily so.--Jedi Kasra 00:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The Hasbro toy is only supporting evidence, not the base for my argument. Nevertheless, I understand and agree with your point of view that it is not particularly strong evidence at all. Still, even with only the other evidence we have standing alone, I think we have a pretty strong case for his being human. --Kessel 11:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

• I disagree. They most likely made Revan bald and completely white-skinned so his true appearance wouldn't be established; there also isn't really any evidence against it. We don't know what Revan looked like as the Dark Lord (under the mask). In TSL, the Exile's skin turns white/grey on the dark side, and Darth Malak's skin was almost white. Vader having a pink lightsaber was a factory error and not intentional. Drewton ^{(Drewton's Holocron)} 20:50, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Personality and traits, second last line. Nihilus, however, was still Human enough to have feelings. It hasn't been proven that nihilus was human, so the line needs to be changed.Soresumakashi 10:41, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

The Campaign Guide describes his specy as "Human (Dark Side Aberration)", explaining that "As his useless body disintegrates, he becomes living primitive intention". Whatever the latter means, the first quote should be proving that he was human, right? Kadoudal 16:17, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Gender

Apparently Darth Nihilus is Female. --AnakinSkywalker101011 19:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

• Evidently not. -- I need a name (Complain here) 19:22, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Nudes of Nihilus or gtfo. MarxismIsLove 00:29, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Nihilus is - at least physically - male, since Visas calls him a man, if the Exile asks her to take his mask. Jediphile 23:57, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Apprentices

Do you know there is a cut-content where the exile can became the new apprentice of Nihilus by killing Visas? It's going to be restored by Team Gizka,but,do you think Nihilus would later kill the exile? Tatesz 16:17, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• This isn't a place for speculation - Kingpin13 16:25, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
• Please talk about speculation on TheForce.net; talk pages are for discussing changes to the article. And in the dialogue files, I remember the Exile only becoming Nihilus's apprentice so that she could trick him, so she wouldn't really be his apprentice anyway, even in cut content. Drewton ^{(Drewton's Holocron)} 16:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

In the information of the Sith Lord of Freedon Nadd's tomb, it is said that his master was Darth Nihilus. So, he must be his former apprentice if we trust this information. I have played the game and I don't remember a direct mention of Nihilus being his master. But if this is confirmed, then he must be in apprentices section on Darth Nihilus article. —Unsigned comment by ArturB20 (talk • contribs)

• Do not ressurect dead topics. You may start a new topic at the bottom of the page with quotes and preferably screenshots from the game to prove your assertion. NaruHina ^Talk 22:44, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

Consciousness Stored In Armor

Krayt asked Nihilus how he stored his consciousness in his armor, and later in the article it mentions that it's unknown where this armor was. I think it's fair to assume that Krayt is referring to the 'armor' Nihilus is wearing. Due to the way the question was worded, the fact that nothing's ever been mentioned about any armor, etc. Not sure personally, but I'm leaning towards pulling the last snippet of that section out. MarxismIsLove 00:34, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

• It's likely, but it's still speculation. Drewton ^{(Drewton's Holocron)} 01:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
• I would wonder about this considering in any ending of the confrontation with Nihilus, his body dissipates into the Force. Linkstarwars 06:11, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Sith successor

It says that Nihilus was succeeded as Dark Lord by an unknown sith, but isn't that wrong? When the Exile goes to Malachor V after Nihilus' death, Darth Traya/Kreia is the new Dark Lord with Sion as her apprentice. Shouldn't Darth Traya be there as the next Dark Lord after Nihilus? Jediphile 00:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

• Kreia merely reclaimed her role as a Sith (which is actually debatable), so she wasn't actually a successor. Sion was also not her apprentice at that time. - Drewton ^{(Drewton's Holocron)} 01:16, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
• I think Kreia refers to Sion as her "apprentice" on Malachor during a cutscene with Mira. Anyway the Exile during her confrontation with Sion makes him realize that was merely another test, for her, not him. Sion wanted the Exile gone, however, so that Kreia would have no choice but to take him back as her apprentice. Also I believe cut content on Dantooine shows Kreia calling herself one of the Sith, yet on Telos as she speaks to Atris she says that even though she is Sith, that is but a title, and not really what she believes. That fits with her claim of holding both of what Jedi and Sith actually are: pieces of a whole; and I hardly think we can call that a dark lord of the Sith. She is, as she always was, just Kreia.--Jinger 12:01, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Yes, but whatever her beliefs and goals, she is still in charge of the Trayus Academy on Korriban V and commands the Sith legions there at the end of the game. Doesn't that make her the new ruling Sith Lord by definition? Jediphile 10:09, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Concept Art

I found This Image of concept Art: I'm sure it's not good enough to be put in the Article bit but it's a nice image http://zoom.bg/users/i/12/a463b4d33856a3b523a4358f0ce94951.jpg JediNTT307 21:26, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you Serious?

The Exile: "What did you see when you looked at him?" Visas: "A man, nothing more." Does Anyone think that's allitle odd that The Exile would ask VISAS that question? She can't see. She can see through the force but it's not like she can give a description of his face and what species. JediNTT307 00:51, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

• (chuckles) Though this is indeed a good point, Visas and most Miraluka can indeed "see", though not in the sense we do. They use the Force. For example, if you ever select her and hit the left stick to enter first person mode, you can see, though it is colored in terms of Light, Dark, and neutral. So you're definitely correct in that she might now be able to discern certain details of his face/person but she is the most logical choice of who to ask since she is the person who knew him best, both as a master, and as a person. Linkstarwars 06:56, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
• I do see truth in what both of you say, JediNTT307, Linkstarwars is definitely about the Miraluka being able to see the Force of a person, though, Nihilus doesn't have a body at all, he transferred the, as they call it, Living Force, from his own body into armor since the dark side was destroying his body. So, in truth, when Kreia said that he is already dead, it is not false, for example —Unsigned comment by 174.100.201.71 (talk • contribs)

Distortion

Since we now know that Nihilus no longer had a physical form of some sort, what do you think happened to him? The poor guy must've suffered something with the dark side during the battle at Malachor. DarthWill3 19:28, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

That thing about Nihilus having black dreadlocks should be erased.

I think that "Hair Color: Black" should be erased from Darth Nihilus's profile. Just because it was on a toy doesn't make it canon. Sith Lord 012 14:37, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

• We should delete the entire article. Just because he was in a game doesn't make him canon. -- I need a name (Complain here) 15:31, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
  • The reference link is wrong though, no Nihilus there. Someone who know their way around Rebelscum better than me might want to fix that. Charlii 18:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Fixed. Drewton ^{(Drewton's Holocron)} 19:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
      • Well I think that just because Hasbro made an action figure of Nihilus with black hair doesn't mean that he canonically has black hair! Sith Lord 012 21:50, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
        • Is Hasbro not a source? If not then you will have to give us better reason. --Redemption^(Talk) 21:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
• Toys and collectibles are considered canon. The hair stays. --Buttbutt 06:11, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
• Does anybody have a problem if this is commented on in the BTS section? Xicer9^(Rawr) 22:31, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Good idea, and it doesn't matter, its canon. I'll write it. NaruHina ^Talk 00:43, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I guess I'm kind of late to this discussion but has there been any other mention or example that his hair is black and in dreadlocks besides the action figure? Andreou 15:02, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Pic

should the Article Have a Pic of His Face(no Mask)???? Master Gresh 12:07, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

• There aren't any. -- I need a name (Complain here) 14:21, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Wrong Way Round

It claims that Visas says she saw "a man nothing more" in the light side option and the "graveyard" speech for the dark side. I'm sure it was actually the other way round in the game. User talk:1705jallen

• The version in the article is the correct version. Why do you think it is incorrect? Cylka^-talk- 15:32, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

• if you go on to Youtube and look for a video of a dark side Nihilus defeat, look at what the response is, or play that part on both sides, see if its different. Or alternatively, look at Darth Nihilus with increased vitality, which is light side and you'll hear the graveyard speech User talk:1705jallen

• I have played both light and dark sides of the game. Visas says "I saw a graveyard world, surrounded by a fleet of dead ships. I felt it through him... as I feel it through you." if you play DS. She is comparing Nihilus to a DS Exile. In the LS, Visas says "A man, nothing more." since she has resolved her issues with the destruction of her planet, which is only possible with the LS path. I have to say, I don't consider Youtube reliable evidence when it comes to the games since there are a great number of mods out there, and many people film the modded versions. Cylka^-talk- 17:28, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

• oh well. the game was so bugged, I may have a faulty version. —Unsigned comment by 1705jallen (talk • contribs)
• I got "I saw a graveyard world" with absolutely no mods and as a LS female when I first played. Odd. Drewton ^{(Drewton's Holocron)} 20:06, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
  • AFAIK, the response changes depending on what you ask Visas to do when she goes to the dead body. -- I need a name (Complain here) 20:08, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
    • Did a quick look through the dialog file itself and this seems to be the case. The first option ("Tell me what you saw.") leads to Graveyard world. Second ("What did you see when you looked at him?") leads to a man and nothing more. Don't ask which one is canon though. --Redemption^(Talk) 04:50, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
      • Thanks for checking that out, Redemption. I didn't have that happen to me in my game. This may end up being a bit problematic. I'm guessing that whole bit will have to be taken out of the article, as well as Visas Marr's article. Oh, well. Thanks again. Cylka^-talk- 08:08, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

meaning of name

i belive it is derived from Nihilism or a belief that argues that life is without meaning, purpose or intrinsic value. Moral nihilists assert that morality does not exist, and subsequently there are no moral values with which to uphold a rule or to logically prefer one action over another which sounds acurate for this character —Unsigned comment by 204.186.3.58 (talk • contribs)

• "Like many Sith Lords, Nihilus's name has a second meaning (nihil is Latin for "nothing").[15] This may be a reference to the fact that he has no physical body, only his consciousness in his armor. Nihilus is also derived from the term "nihilism," or "belief in nothing," most notably the denial of concepts of truth and purpose.[16] Another Latin-derived term from nihil is the English word, "annihilation" which means "to destroy completely" or "reduce to nonexistence."" To quote the article. It is already stated in the article that it is related to the word "Nihilism" but the definition and practice of Nihilism are actually quite different much of the time which is why it does not go into detail about the belief as it would become too convoluted. NaruHina ^Talk 04:25, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
  • thats what i just said —Unsigned comment by 204.186.26.205 (talk • contribs)
    • In that case, I suggest you read the article. This page is for discussing changes to the article, not reflecting on the character or inspirations for it if such info is already present. NaruHina ^Talk 01:51, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Nihil actually means "will to nothing". It is the desire, if you will, to see everything cease to exist. 66.27.204.126 16:18, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

Darkside Energy

Darth Nihilus became living darkside energies after the Mass Shadows tore him apart, so why whenever I put living darkside energies into his infobox does it get deleted? —Unsigned comment by Darth Nihilus the Lord of Hunger (talk • contribs)

• Do you have a source for that? User:NaruHina is currently in the process of bringing this to GA status—unsourced information will be considered fanon and removed. SoresuMakashi^{(Everything I tell you is the truth)} 02:10, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

It's from the campaign guide. He used to be Human but was so absored by the dark side his boady dissolved. Also isnt Nihilus the first person to use the "seperate the spirit and boady technice". {{SUBST:User:Jayce Carver/sig}} 07:52, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

• Yes that is from the campaign guide that he no longer had a physical form. Nowhere does it say he bbecame living dark side energies. Also, even though he isn't "physical" anymore, he is still Human. NaruHina ^Talk 00:26, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Im sticking with my beleif and even though its not canon as of now I'll likely email George Lucas and confirm it, but until than none of us can prove he is an average human or darside energies. —Unsigned comment by Darth Nihilus the Lord of Hunger (talk • contribs)

• Actually, the CG says "Before it devours him totally, Nihilus uses its power to displace his persona into his robes and armor. As his useless body disintegrates, he becomes living primitive intention; at last, the whole of the galaxy becomes food-for Nihilus has become the hunger." It makes no mention of him becoming living dark side energies and actually states that his own spirit went into the armor, not that he became anything different. You have no source for your theory and the one you're trying to pass off does not affirm what you want it to. NaruHina ^Talk 13:56, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
• This is very confusing. If his body disintegrated when he became the "hunger itself", then what did disintegrate after the Exile defeated Nihilus? In all the art he is shown as a figure of a man wrapped in robes. 213.244.195.185 23:59, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
  • Art where he has skin shown is pretty much retconned as there is nothing under his robes after he changes. What disintegrated when he was defeated by the Exile was the armor and his spirit in the armor. NaruHina ^Talk 21:39, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

Re:distortion

Hmm,good point DarthWill.That could explain why he doesn't speak any known language.Explanation:The dark side energies could of deformed him somehow.Was he mute before he became a sith?Alpha957 21:53, 11 May 2009 (UTC)Alpha957

He speaks the same language that Atris' Sith holocrons speak (from the sound of it). Therefore, your claim that "he doesn't speak any known language" is totally false, and in the end, your claim is pure speculation anyway. --Michaeldsuarez ^{(Talk) (Deeds)} 14:33, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

PS: If he doesn't have "any physical form" as DarthWill claims, then how do we explain this action figure. --Michaeldsuarez ^{(Talk) (Deeds)} 14:37, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Gap in Nihilus' Past

While I was reading this article, I found a gap in the story of his past.- "He lost everything during the Mandalorian Wars, surviving the activation of the Mass Shadow Generator at the Battle of Malachor V, which surrounded the planet with a destructive spacial phenomenon known as a mass shadow that obliterated almost everything and everyone on and around the planet. The experience of the shadows made him "hunger" for Force energy, and the affliction began to ravage his body." And the next explanation of his past is-"Nihilus was alive at the conclusion of the Mandalorian Wars, a galaxy-wide conflict between the Mandalorian and the Galactic Republic government, during which he was said to have lost everything, including his friends, family, and his will to live."

So how did he end up on Malachor V? Was he a Revanchist, was he a Mandalorian, a Republic Soldier? If it says he lost his family, friends, and will to live, one would assume that his homeworld was conquered by the Mandalorians.--Darth Dan 012 14:56, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

• Unknown, hence why it's not in the article. -- I need a name (Complain here) 14:57, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
  • We do not assume anything. If it's not told, it is unknown. Mauser^Comlink 14:58, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Sorry to restart an old issue, but I always got the impression Malachor V was his homeworld. Thus, he lost everything at the Battle of Malachor, but survived the Mass Shadow Generator and started hungering for Force energy. Makashi Flourish 20:43, November 15, 2009 (UTC)

Confusing speculation

A while ago, I read on this article and others a few speculative bits that really confused me. One statement was that Nihilus' mask was rumored to have been made from Revan's skull. Another was that Revan's flagship was rumored to be the Ravager, later to be acquired by Nihilus. I know that these "rumors" do not make sense, but this site (or maybe it was another encyclopedia, I could be mistaken) at one point said them to be actual rumors. I have no idea where they came from and why no site makes a note of them now. I'm stumped. Anyone have any input on that? --Mateo22 03:26, October 11, 2009 (UTC)

• I believe this all originated here with some ancient revision and then IGN saw it at one point and assumed it correct.--Redemption^(Talk) 04:47, October 11, 2009 (UTC)
  • IIRC, the rumor about Nihilus' mask being made from Revan's skull was one that was considered and rejected early in the plot sessions Obsidian had, when they were planning the game's plot. I wish I could provide a source for that, but then it really doesn't matter, since it didn't end up in the game anyway for whatever reason, and thus certainly is not canon. Basically these aren't the droids you're looking for, so move along Jediphile 11:26, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

Sith Power

Is Darth Nihilus the most powerful sith ever?--Master Nihilus 21:13, January 9, 2010 (UTC)Master Nihilus

Go to Darth Sidious, and you can find some sources that he is the most powerful Sith in galactic history. I don't know how close Nihilus is considered to be in comparison. --Mateo22 ^Contact 15:52, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Palpatine is described as "the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known." But what is the nature of his power? Is it a reference to his degree of influence over galactic affairs? In that sense, he certainly would be the undisputed "most powerful Sith Lord." In terms of individual Force potency and strength, Nihilus seemed to be more powerful, however. Alexander the Great exerted tremendous military influence, but I wouldn't expect him to win an MMA match or weightlifting contest. Agnapostate 05:47, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

This page is for discussion of changes to the page, not discussion of the character. Please stop. NaruHina ^Talk 16:57, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

Not general discussion of the character, but discussion pertinent to his description on the page. Establishment of his nature as the "most powerful Sith Lord" would certainly merit inclusion in the article. Agnapostate 17:41, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

No, you're wrong. If it isn't stated inn a book, an official source, or someone like Leland Chee, it is only your speculation and that can't be included in the article. So please stop. NaruHina ^Talk 21:37, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

Settle down. We all realize that an unsourced statement of such magnitude certainly can't be added into the article and are merely interested in finding legitimate sources to affirm what has been speculation up to this point. Agnapostate 03:19, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

I've been completely calm. The fact is there is no source like that. If there is, find it on youre own and then discuss it here. In case you hadn't noticed, there is a place called the Knowledge Bank where this kind of thing can be asked. As it stands this isn't a connversation about changes to the article so, for the last time, please stop posting here about it. I'd much rather not involve someone of the Administration. NaruHina ^Talk 18:08, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

You're quite right. We need to wait for a reliable source before insertion of such content into the article, as it cannot be based on speculation, and that was the topic of our discussion. Thanks, and let's leave it at that. Agnapostate 21:46, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Theory

The way that I see it, Nihilus is nothing but the Force. Ever since seeing him for the first time, I have been thinking what he looks like under his robes. Since he is nothing but the Force, glows red though Force sight, and disintegrates into a red cloud when he “died,” I think that he really does not have an actual body. Rather, he is just a red cloud hidden under a black cloak. This would certainly explain the mask, and the fact that he appears to not have eyes.

Darth Shan’s TSL Story Mod posed the surprising theory of Nihilus and the Exile being the two sides of the same person. The thought that they could be the same person brought me to a surprising realization.

When The Exile fought in the Mandalorian Wars, she slowly strayed closer to the dark side with each battle, not really realizing it at the time. By the final showdown at Malachor V, the dark side energy has a significant pull on her emotions, and tries to pull her to Dark side as a channel for its energy.

When the war ends, The Exile rejects the force and the Dark side Energy from her body, causing the Wound in the Force. This could conceivably cause a Force Specter, which would draw energy from the other beings to sustain its form and tangibility within the universe. This would have created the being now known as Darth Nihilus.

Darth Traya could have found the specter wandering the outlying region of Malachor and would have taken it in as a pupil to teach it everything about the dark side of the force. She would have also taught the specter to feed off of other beings and to use the force to give it a shape. Then, donning the black robes and the white mask, it could travel unhindered.

That would also explain why the Exile and Kreia have the bond, due to the fact that Darth Nihilus is another part of her. This would also explain why Visas is able to sense The Exile and latches onto him. She has a bond with Nihilus, and thus, she also has a bond to The Exile. As Visas looked on the "face" of Nihilus, maybe she saw the Exile's face and decided that she didn't want her to know.

Perhaps the "wound" in the force refers to the Exile being split in two, creating two beings that are like two sides of the same coin, and would naturally seek each other out. When Darth Nihilus "dies" , she asks Visas to bring her the mask, opening her to the force again as the "body" of Darth Nihilus vaporizes.

Of course, this is only a theory. LordDeathRay ^{(The Sith Archives)} 19:37, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• And that's exactly what this talk page is not for. Grand Moff Tranner ^(Comlink) 19:43, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• This page is for discussing changes to the article, not fan theories. Read the above section. NaruHina ^Talk 22:47, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Then where should I put this theory so that people could discuss about it and agree or disagree with it? LordDeathRay ^{(The Sith Archives)} {{SUBST:Sbrredd}} 21:40, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

• This might be a good place to go.--Jedi Kasra (comlink) 23:52, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

after death possibility

If Nihilus was the force when he evaporated into the force then he would still be around to seek vengeance on the jedi later this would have not already happened because it would have been told before. so it must have happened if it happened after krayt or possibly during krayt knowing of darth nihl using some the letters of the name nihilus he could have possibly waited to possess a worthy weak minded individual, a nagai. also nihilus being the lord of hunger and nihl as a gaping mouth tattooed around his own mouth is another similarity. darth maladi once told nihl that he was not born sith so he could have been possessed by nihilus to follow the sith. this is completely my thought i did not find this anywhere and is probably not true. --86.29.169.37 15:55, January 3, 2014 (UTC)

• That is complete speculation and fanon, and this is not the place to discuss fan theories. Cade Calrayn 15:58, January 3, 2014 (UTC)

Hasbro is NOT canon!

I deleted everything about Nihilus' "dreadlocks" because it was a creation by Hasbro and I know that Hasbro is NOT a canon source.--Darth Dan 012 02:20, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

• Never delete from Talk Pages. NaruHina ^Talk 03:42, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Darth Nihilus Name Meaning

I noticed how Sion and Traya have the meaning to there names in the Behind The Scenes Section and Nihilus doesn't. Shouldn't it be mentioned that nihil means nothing? He devours planets and leaves them void of life to appease his eternal hunger while also saps the energy of all around him. Just saying that it should be noted.66.81.36.49 23:44, July 1, 2010 (UTC)BB

• Good idea, give me some time to put it up there...--Jedi Kasra (comlink) 23:45, July 1, 2010 (UTC)
  • We can't unless it's been stated by an official from LFL or Obsidian. Unless it's meaning is made clear here (I can't read it), the meaning shouldn't be added. If it is, I can just ressurect the old mention of the meaning from the page's history. NaruHina ^Talk 02:28, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
    • It finally came up and he's in there. Readding. NaruHina ^Talk 02:58, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

Alliance with Vaklu

How could Nihilus have made an alliance with General Vaklu if he can't even speak? Maybe he used an interpreter, but that also raises the question of why Nihilus would even try to use Vaklu to take over Onderon when Nihilus' army could easily do it themselves? --Darth Dan 012 05:59, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

2.8 Updated references

Someone please make a link to Meetra Surik in there...She DOES have a page, yet she keeps being mentioned without it. It is annoying not to have it linked in when it exists and she is so important to his story. —Unsigned comment by 89.86.83.31 (talk • contribs)

• Her article is linked to as many times as is required. nayayen★talk 13:04, April 11, 2012 (UTC)
  • It should be pointed out, for record, that linking more than that is construed as against the rules. NaruHina ^Talk 22:31, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Nihilus Name?

I have played Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords several times and I have a question. Is the name Darth Nihilus mentioned ever in the game? Visas Marr just refers to him as her master, and Kreia simply refers to him in an indirect fashion. So once again is his name mentioned at all? sith1 14:26, 30 Aug 2012 (UTC)

• This is answered in the second paragraph of the Behind the Scenes section. For the future, this page is for questions related to changing the article, not talking about the subject. Questions that don't deal with the articles should be taken to the Knowledge Bank. NaruHina ^Talk 19:07, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

5.1 Corrected spelling/grammar

Spelling correction requested:

In the first paragraph, the article reads "He survived the activation of the Mass Shadow Generator superweapon during the war's final battle at the planet of Malachor V, which surrounded the planet with a destructive spacial phenomenon known as a mass shadow."

It should be "spatial", not "spacial". —Unsigned comment by 71.217.31.176 (talk • contribs)

• Good catch, mate. :) NaruHina ^Talk 21:43, October 13, 2013 (UTC)

Death

Darth nihlus can never die even if in this game he did darth nihlus is living darkside and his sole manifests his mask so there for if his body dies his mask,would still be and someone would later be compelled to put it on and become nihlus —Unsigned comment by Dartchewbaca (talk • contribs)

Pronounciation

Has there ever been an official source on the pronounciation of his name? I've always felt like the "ni-lus" pronounciation was a fan pronunciation without any backing. Assuming it's pronounced like English nihilism would be faulty logic without a source. In Classical Latin, nihil is ni-hil and nihilum is ni-hi-lum, so I've always thought of him has Ni-hi-lus. If there's not an offical source, I think the pronounciation needs to be taken out of the article, because people have been using this article as a source for said topic. 2600:100D:B15B:F509:2DF5:967D:EE49:F3C5 19:23, November 3, 2019 (UTC)

Armor

Should we change the part in which Darth Nihilus keeps himself alive in armor. I thought Krayt meant that before the events of Knights of the old republic 2. It doesn`t make any sense. Erdan5 ( talk) 04:34, February 24, 2022 (UTC)

• Please, refrain from judgement based on what you consider or not consider to "make sense". Stick to what the sources tell. Personal appreciation and opinion are foreign to encyclopedic work. NanoLuuke^{Cloning facility} 08:19, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Spirit

Is the Darth Nihilus in Star Wars Legacy actually him? Or is it a sentient(I'm not meaning sapient but the actual meaning for sentient) holocron that has a memory of it`s own? Erdan5 ( talk) 04:39, February 24, 2022 (UTC)

• Holocron tech function akin to an AI that mimic it's creator (speech, thoughts, memory, so to speak). There is nothing in out of the "ordinary" with this particular holocron. NanoLuuke^{Cloning facility} 08:19, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Nihilus and his armor inconsistencies...

So, the Wookiepedia article says that Darth Nihilus encased his spirit within his armor after he died onboard the Ravager in KOTOR II. It was taken to Korriban for burial, and the spirit became one with the nexus of the planet.

I have a problem with that.

The source for this information is the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, and I don't think we should take the part of Nihilus surviving in his armor be on the info of his article.

First of all, the KOTOR Campaign guide says that Nihilus put his spirit in his armor before KOTOR II. Yes, one could say that he put his spirit in his armor again, but then I checked the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, and it says that Nihilus had a body when he died on the Ravager, and it melted away into nothingness. The KOTOR guide says that Nihilus already was a phantom by the time of KOTOR II, and had no body anymore.

What I am saying is the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, while pretty accurate, has a few errors that are contradicted by more reliable sources, such as the KOTOR Campaign Guide. The KOTOR Guide clearly states that Nihilus did it before KOTOR II, not after he died. Also, when Nihilus dissipates into dark side energy in the game, it shows no armor left behind, just..nothing.

We see Nihilus in the Legacy comics, but I think it was just intended to be just a gatekeeper and nothing more, not like a ghost or anything.

So, in conclusion, here is what I am proposing, we can remove the whole idea that Nihilus lived on in his armor after KOTOR II in the article. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia while pretty accurate, is wrong here, contradicted by the KOTOR Guide, which is a more reliable source.

The whole Nihilus living on in his armor and taken to Korriban for burial could be put in the BTS section.

And we could put ambiguous debates on the canonicity of Nihilus' armor in the Behind the Scenes section.

Erdan5 (talk) 7:22, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

• I don't support throwing out the part relating to how his spirit reached Korriban just because it doesn't fit perfectly. However, looking at the text itself (from CSWE), I have a different interpretation to propose: "As he died, Darth Nihilus's body seemed to melt away into nothingness, as he somehow managed to encase his spirit in his battle armor." The last part of the sentence does not necessary relate exactly to the temporality of the first part, meaning that it refer to him encasing his spirit in his armor (long) before he died, but without saying exactly when it happens, thus not being in full contradiction with what the Guide state. He wouldn't had to time to do such a thing during his fight and death at the hand of the Exile, anyway. The sentence in itself is confusing, but I believe it's because the author tried to acknowledge a fact that it happened prior to explain what is coming after. This passage also refers to his body by saying it "seemed to melt away", emphasis on "seemed", because that leave it pretty open to interpretation as to if there was really a body... NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 15:51, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Darth Nihilus's "survival" after his duel with Meeta Surik and his armor buried on Korriban should be treated as canonically ambiguous, thus, it shouldn't be put in his biography section and instead be put in the BTS section.

Okay, the Wookieepedia article says this in the overview: "Nihilus met a large Republic and Mandalorian fleet at Telos IV that distracted him. Meanwhile, his flagship, the Ravager, was secretly boarded by a small force consisting of Surik, Marr, Mandalore the Preserver, and his Mandalorians. The trio confronted and slew Nihilus in the ensuing duel while the Mandalorians rigged explosives that destroyed the ship. The Sith Lord's armor maintained his spirit and was collected for burial on the Sith homeworld of Korriban, where his soul could be contacted with a holocron of his own creation."

For the biography section, specifically the end of "The Assault on Telos IV" section, it says this: "Nihilus' spirit was able to survive inside his armor, not destroyed within the Ravager, which was taken for burial on Korriban, the Sith homeworld. Nihilus' spirit touched the planet's dark side nexus and remained in touch with the corporeal plane because of it."

Okay, the Wookieepedia article is basically saying this for Darth Nihilus: Basically, after dissolving into dark side energy, Nihilus encases his spirit in his armor, which was transported to Korriban for burial, allowing his spirit to connect to the dark side nexus of the planet and a holocron that he made prior to his death can be used to commune with his spirit. However, there are both real-world and lore problems for this statement:

1: Darth Nihilus didn't survive in his armor as a spirit AFTER his duel with Meetra Surik, but BEFORE. The source of this information is from Darth Krayt in Star Wars Legacy comic and the Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaing Guide. In the Star Wars: Legacy comic, Krayt says this to Nihilus in the holocron: "Lord Nihilus, you escaped death by containing your consciousness within your armor, how?!" The comic, however, doesn't say, imply, or specify at what certain point in time Nihilus contained his essence in his armor, just states that he did it at some point in time. The KOTOR Campaing Guide, however, is very clear on when Nihilus did this ritual. In the KOTOR Campaing Guide, it says this: "Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights- so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double-cross. However, as Nihilus greedily consumes entire planets' life energy, The Dark Side macerates him even faster. But no matter. Nothing matters except his hunger. Before it devours him totally. Nihilus uses its power to displace his persona into his robes and armor. As his useless body disintegrates, he becomes living primitive intention: at last, the whole of the galaxy becomes food- for Nihilus has become the hunger." The Guide went on to say that Nihilus was in this state in KOTOR II's events, thus, Krayt is referring to a time that Nihilus escaped death BEFORE his duel with the Exile, and not after the events of KOTOR II.

2: This isn't really a factor to change but Nihilus's survival doesn't make any sense to the lore that is known about him. If he has no Force energy to feed on he starves and dies. So, theoratically, if he did encase his spirit within his armor again after his duel with Meetra Surik, (which is not true because I will get to it sometime later on), then he would starve to death by his hunger, and he will essentially die anyways. Also, the Ravager, the ship where Darth Nihilus died on in KOTOR II, exploded, and first of all, wouldn't his armor be destroyed and second of all, who in their right mind would risk finding a small piece of armor amidst a huge bunch of debris in the middle of space above a Republic planet like Telos IV? Even assuming all of this, would't whoever found the armor use it to give Nihilus another human form? Lore-wise, it doesn't make any sense. However, condradicting things like this are common in Star Wars and Wookieepedia will stick to the sources even if the lore doesn't make sense, so this section isn't a valid complaint, but just something worth noting here.

These are things that I think are a problem, but there are more problems. First of all, I need to adress the problem: The statement and idea of Nihilus surviving in his armor and it being taken to Korriban for burial and all is sourced to The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, a three-volume reference Encyclopedic book series written in 2008. The article for Nihilus did indeed source this information correctly, as the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia says: "As he died, Darth Nihilus's body seemed to melt away into nothingness, as he somehow managed to encase his spirit in his battle armor. When the armor was transported to Korriban for burial, his spirit traveled with it, and the connection to Korriban's dark side nexus allowed the spirit of Nihilus to maintain contact with the physical world." This passage was written after the passage of Nihilus fighting the Exile Meetra Surik, so it says basically that Nihilus managed to mantain contact with the physical world on Korriban even after his death at the hands of the Jedi Exile.

So yes, the Wook article did source it correctly to this passage, and there is no doubt that this passage, which is from an official reference book, shouldn't be ignored or omitted from the article, I can agree on that. However, I propose something else: I suggest to remove all info regarding the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia on Nihilus's survival to be removed from the overview and in-univers lore biography section for Nihilus, and instead just place this information in the "continuity" sub-section in the Behind the Scenes out-universe section. Here is why I came to this conclusion:

Yes, it is true that the CSWE, (Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia), said this, but we should know that this is a reference book. Reference books can make mistakes and condradict the story and lore information they are based off of, such as how the New Essential Chronology called Kreia's Sith name "Darth Kreia" when she is actually called "Darth Traya" in the actual story or when another reference book, (I forgot it's name) says that Darth Sion is the apprentice to Darth Nihilus when in actuality, he is a peer of Nihilus in the story and game and they are both students of Kreia.

So for the CSWE's case, the canonicity of the statement of Nihilus's survival should be treated as a grey area in my opinion. The reason why is because this information has come from misintepretation on Darth Krayt's line in Star Wars Legacy. When Krayt says to Nihilus, "You escaped death by containing your consciousness within your armor", the writer(s) of the CSWE interpretated that as "he escaped death by Meetra Surik" in KOTOR II even though it is referring to a time Nihilus did before KOTOR II. They also thought this way because Nihilus appears as a ghostly manifestation from his holocron alongside Darth Andeddu and Darth Krayt. Andeddu is indeed a real spirit from the holocron in Legacy because future issues reveal so, but the issues state that it is a technnique that only Andeddu was able to do. The other "ghostly" figures of Bane and Nihilus in Legacy aren't the real Bane and Nihilus, they are just gatekeeper AI that were made for the holocron. This is further supported in the Darth Bane novel trilogy, where Bane created a gatekeeper AI version of himself that has his likeness, personality, voice, etc, but is just an AI gatekeeper and not the real Bane, as the book clearly shows when Bane starts crafting his own Sith Holocron. So, back to Nihilus, other than Andeddu, the gatekeepers of Bane and Nihilus are just gatekeepers, nothing more. The writers of the CSWE minterpretated that scene in the comic as they were all the genuine spirits of the Sith Lords who made their respective holocrons. They even said in the Darth Krayt entry on the Encyclopedia that he was communing with the actual spirit of Bane, and the Darth Bane trilogy books clearly state the opposite.

Borderline, the CSWE writer(s) and/or editor(s) had the wrong context for not only Nihilus, but for Bane as well. Thus, for Nihilus's case they made a whole mini-lore of Nihilus's survival after death that isn't supported or stated anywhere else in the lore.

As far as I know how Wookieepedia works, (correct me if I am wrong) if there are two or more sources that condradict a statement or lore fact from another source, the former sources are taken as more reliable than the latter source. In the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, it says that Nihilus contained his essence within his armor, mask and robes to mantain a physical appearance, and when he died, the Guide says clearly that "Nihilus, the man, dissolves into oblivion" after his duel with the Exile, Meetra Surik. So, he doesn't have a physical body anymore in KOTOR II, and when he died his "animated robes and armor" form dissolved into dark side energy.

The CSWE condradicts the Campaign Guide, stating something else. It says, "as he died, Darth Nihilus's body seemed to melt away into nothingness, as he somehow managed to encase his spirit in his battle armor". This was written in the context that until he died at the hands of the Exile, Nihilus still had a physical body that dissolved into nothingness and that is when he encased his spirit within his battle armor. So they are condradicting what the Game Guide to KOTOR says, in which the latter states that him surviving in his armor was an event that happened already before KOTOR II and not after, and in KOTOR II he doesn't have any body. Even the "continuity" area on the BTS section seems to support this, by saying that the Game Guide is right and the Encyclopedia is wrong.

As for why the Game Guide to KOTOR is more reliable than the Encyclopedia? It is because unlike the Encyclopedia, which is a reference book that just reviews or expands on the lore of already existing lore, the KOTOR Game Guide is the official game companion lore guide to the games themselves. But if you disagree with me, there is one more thing I need to adress and that is the game of KOTOR II itself, where it depicts the death of Nihilus and the game where he came from.

In the game, after you kill Darth Nihilus, his wraith "body" evaporates into a mini scarlet dark side energy storm that soon dissolves and leaves nothing behind, no armor, no body, no anything. It is as if Nihilus was never there. You could argue it is game engine, but why would they take the time to animate his fallen form to flash out of existence through a red scarlet energy storm? Plus, when you kill other characters, they die and leave remains behind, Nihilus doesn't. Also, unlike the game engine, the scene where Nihilus evaorates in a storm of dark side energy into nothingness is a cutscene and not gameplay mode. It is pretty clear to me that this is not merely a game engine thing but it also actually happened in the lore given the reasons I stated. The cutscene shows Nihlus's armor being dissolved into dark side energy, leaving nothing behind. Also, when the Exile takes Nihilus's mask for herself, in the gameplay it says this: You have taken the Mask of Darth Nihilus. It is the last surviving piece of the beast that was reborn on the shattered world of Malachor V". So the game itelf states there was nothing left of Nihilus but the mask, (and no, the mask is not the same as the armor).

The KOTOR Game Guide further supports this in their entry for Nihilus, stating that "Nihilus, the man, dissolves into oblivion". The KOTOR Game Guide, coupled with the official story and lore where Nihlus came from and depicted his death, show and say Nihilus is gone for good with no trace of his essence or armor left behind. The CSWE just made an error when writing their entry for Nihilus. Two sources, (one of them a story and original source), against one source that is froma mere reference book compared to a story game and an official game guide.

The CSWE on it's own should be taken as reliable imo. However, when they directly condradict the previosly established lore of a story it is based off of, I would say it shouldn't be considered canon or at best kept in a "canonical grey zone" area. They did make a lot of mistakes, such as saying that Darth Talon was killed when Cade Skywalker stabbed her in the stomach even though the story where it shows that later shows clearly that she survived, healed, and continued on as a Sith Lord. Even the main writer adresses continuity errors in the prologue introduction of the CSWE: "The author/editor is solely responsible for any errors of fact or interpretation". So they admit they can get errors.

To sum it all up, yes, the CSWE said Nihilus survived after KOTOR II, but it is a reference book, and two more sources, (a story game where Nihilus came from that shows his death and the official game guide), condradict this by showing and saying Nihilus dissolved into oblivion and there was nothing left behind. That is two more reliable sources vs an encyclopedia passage. So here is what I propose: We remove from the biography and overview sections of the article that concerns Nihilus's survival, and instead just place this passage and error in the "continuity" section in Behind the Scenes heading.

Please take the time to read and think about this subject, as I think it is important that we think this. Also, sorry if this is a long section in the talk page, but I tried to be as detailed as I can so that I can bring a discussion. Erdan5 (talk) 4:59, 7 August 2025 (UTC)

• Don't be sorry, you've made your case quite clear, and clarity is definitely needed when tackling the edge of Star Wars continuity and it's many janky bits. I do agree with your interpretation of what might have happen with the writing of the CSWE on the Nihilus entry, as there is numerous instances where such mistakes and oddities has been noticed in regards to this specific work. However, I don't share your certainty as to what to do with the problematic content in the article. On one hand, you are right to point out there are contradictions between the documents, as already exposed in the BTS continuity section, but it can also be considered that CSWE, because it released last (although, it likely it took more production time that the Campaign Guide, released a few months before), retains seniority, and because it does not just make a simple mistake but expand on it with entirely new lore, this can be interpreted as a retcon, thus being a valid piece of information, even if contradicting previous documents. To be honest, I really not sure what the best way to deal with this. Maybe asking Chee and Hidalgo could shed some light on this... And having more editors weight in would be bad too, and I would go past pushing this topic to being exposed on a Senate Hall page. NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 14:19, 15 August 2025 (UTC)