Forum:TC:Tarkin's Top Shelf

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This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or, if the page was deleted, in the Senate Hall rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was No consensus. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 22:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Tarkin's Top Shelf (talk - history - links - logs - delete - protect)

I feel the Celebration presence of this podcast doesn't amount to much different than any other fan or fan group attending Celebration. The article itself states that it was one of several podcast groups given access to the podcast stage, and it does not appear they have been promoted or acknowledged by Lucasfilm or Disney in an official or entirely formal capacity. I hate to TC such a fresh page but this just doesn't seem to meet our requiremnts for fan notability.

Delete

  1. As nominator. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 15:47, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
  2. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 15:49, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
  3. Per Wookieepedia:Notability of fan projects. NanoLuukeCloning Facility 16:05, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
  4. Rsand 30 (talk) 16:10, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
  5. Fanpedia exists and can be soft redirected to at most. But fails the policy enough to have been CSD'd, and sets a bad precedent. We should not start making tons of these for people who want them; influx of non-substantiated content unrecognized by Lucasfilm.—spookywillowwtalk 16:22, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
    Bonzane10 Sabine Starbird (holonet) 16:25, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
  6. If this is a personal project the editor that created it wants to explore, i encourage them to create a user subpage and document there. NBDani TeamFireballLogo-Collider(they/them)Yeager's Repairs 16:27, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
  7. ThrawnChiss7 Mitth symbol Assembly Cupola 16:33, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
    TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 17:15, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
  8. Tommy-Macaroni (he/they) 18:14, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
    Wok142 (talk) 19:00, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
  9. Zed42 (talk) 20:32, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
  10. Per everyone above. Any fan podcast being at Celebration doesn't necessarily make the cut for notability. Fan26 (Talk) 20:46, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
  11. Lewisr (talk) 00:58, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
  12. A vote to delete isn't a vote against the page's value to the community; it's a recognition that Wookieepedia exists to document licensed material and Star Wars Fanpedia exists to document fan material. Both communities are strengthened by focusing on their primary mission and cross-linking to things that fall outside it. Asithol (talk) 09:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
  13. JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 19:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Keep

  1. I realize I'll likely be the minority here, but I believe us not covering something like this would be a disservice to our readers. If someone comes here looking for information about Celebration, they should also be able to find information about those who were invited to present at it. Sure, maybe it isn't the most official of recognitions, but it still is part of Star Wars history nonetheless. A larger discussion is needed to determine what form this takes for sure, but outright deletion is a mistake, imho. This is something that did get official recognition, in the form of presenting at Celebration over multiple consecutive years, and in my mind that meets the notability requirements. Supreme Emperor Holocomm 00:15, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
  2. Per SE. It does meet the requirements of points one and two. Celebration is an officially sponsored event and isn't just some fan gathering. I think it absolutely meets the notability requirements, even moreso than some of the others I've seen here and there. They were at three. They were presenting at Celebration and did live shows. It's not like they were invited just to be guests, they were participating in Celebration's events for the year. I could see not keeping this if they weren't actually invited and presenting, but they were. Sure, the article could use some citing clean-up, but in general it appears to actually meet the requirements. —SnowedLightning (they/she) 00:21, 17 March 2024‎ (UTC)
  3. OOM 224 (he/him) 01:58, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
  4. Changing vote per my reasoning in the SH thread. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 02:16, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
  5. Putting my vote here for the time being with the SH around the topic still active. Bonzane10 Sabine Starbird (holonet) 05:31, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
  6. Voting in favour, per my reasoning under the Comments section here and in Senate Hall under Forum:SH:Fan notability policy. Commander Bhatoa (talk) 07:07, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
  7. JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 18:22, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Comments

  • You all make good points, but I don't see the problem. It's a podcast that has graced the stages of Star Wars conventions and has had many members of the creative team join them on their show. Though they are not officially endorsed by Lucasfilm, they are occupying an important space in the fandom and I think they should be allowed to stay. —Unsigned comment by Brennen Marr (talk • contribs)
  • For everyone interested in the wider discussion, please see the ongoing Forum:SH:Fan podcast notability as well. OOM 224 (he/him) 02:01, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Not certain if the editor behind the article in question can vote on said matters, though per the notability of fan organisations, such as podcasts, I did recognise that many podcasts featured at various Star Wars Celebration conventions were not documented in Star Wars Insider or StarWars.com akin to the existing fan podcasts that had artcles. I checked those articles, including RFR's which had a revision removing much history pertaining to the podcast in of itself, which is sensible - I kept the article on Tarkin's Top Shelf primarily limited to official Star Wars Celebration sources (virtually the websites for the various individual conventions) and sources pertaining to their appearances at Star Wars Celebration. I understand that not all fan-information Lucasfilm recognises in some fashion is suitable for Wookieepedia, though fan-podcasts seemingly have a precedent, so I proceeded. Commander Bhatoa (talk) 08:25, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
    • You've got the right to vote here. The only requirement is making 50 edits within the past six months, which I confirmed that you have. OOM 224 (he/him) 21:02, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Star Wars Celebration was essentially created as (and still is) a promotional event sponsored and officialised by Lucasfilm itself. Being managed and administered by them. Unless I'm missing a third party which repudiates that Lucasfilm run Celebration as their promotional event for Star Wars. I also consulted the Star Wars Celebration website which would be reasonably considered official sources, considering other articles cite the various iterations of the website also - the Podcast Stage is a recurring part of Celebration, with applications required in advanced for any slot chosen. It is listed as panel information on the websites. Furthermore, podcasts are also described as being selected from a large field of applicants and if chosen, are welcomed to Celebration to broadcast live - clearly an official capacity. Otherwise, PDFs (outlining the podcasts selected to broadcast and panel timetables, which are still accessible for download, wouldn't list said welcomed podcasts and the official panel scheduling would exclude the pertinent stages and timeslots in which said podcasts hosted from. All information is relayed on the Star Wars Celebration website for that convention. Application openings and closures are announced via Star Wars Celebration's official Twitter account. It is a part of the convention. Commander Bhatoa (talk) 08:25, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
  • In response to the article being a personal project. I disagree with that framing - it was spurred on by interaction with one of podcast's hosts, however the outcome is still amounting to the podcast being endorsed recognised at a Lucasfilm-administered event and Wookieepedia therefore documenting that. Similar to podcasts being recognised/endorsed by StarWars.com. Hence why the article was created. As it concerns precedent, perhaps the podcasts could instead have individual paragraphs on the corresponding Celebration conventions they were featured at. Though then, why not fold RebelForceRadio's and the other two fan podcast articles into StarWars.com's article under a community paragraph - that would only be consistent. Commander Bhatoa (talk) 08:29, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
  • The Star Wars Technical Commentaries, which to my knowledge is only the fan project of an author/consultant of DK's Incredible Cross-Sections and isn't endorsed or officilised by Lucasfilm, yet it has an article due to relevance for Curtis Saxton. Unofficial and unauthorised books by a collective of fans may have Wookieepedia articles if a few authors whom wrote licensed material are involved. Unofficial magazines containing completely unlicensed (therefore not endorsed) material may have Wookieepedia articles or are at least referenced on the encyclopedia. Proximity to the subject matter seems to be a criteria on occasion. I do not disagree with the status quo of the above. I merely put matters into perspective in relation to other articles which haven't been flagged as not being suitable. Ultimately - the precedent set here is not detrimental. The only precedent established is the inclusion of podcasts which have undergone a known selection process from many applicants to host at Star Wars Celebration in a recognised capacity as aforementioned. This doesn't open any flood-gates, so I believe the slippery slope concerns are addressed. Not every fan-podcast constitutes. If a podcast had none of these credentials, it would be unwarranted on Wookieepedia. The podcast here had at least a high proximity to being endorsed and was definitely recognised. Just in a different manner to being on StarWars.com. Commander Bhatoa (talk) 08:29, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Chris Kempshall has asked me to share this message from him, which he posted in the social channel on discord.
"So I’m just briefly materialising in here (as I’m hoping this is the best place for it) and then I’m going to puff of smoke away again.
I’m aware there’s a vote going on at the moment about the ‘Tarkin’s Top Shelf’ page on the Wook at the moment. Whilst I’ve been a guest a few times (and probably will be again) the point I’m going to make is me wearing my historian hat rather than my Star Wars author one.
Studying Star Wars is a lot of fun but can also be hard. I know there are people working on things to do with fan culture etc. Being able to find pages that detail things like podcasts who have been part of Celebrations etc is going to help them a lot. Similarly they’ve had guests on talking about things that probably end up being quoted on Wook pages. But researchers won’t just want to know the words they said. They’ll want to know about where they said it and why they were there.
The Wook is a great resource for historians, and researchers of all kinds. I heartily encourage all of you who are voting to help facilitate that!" - Chris Kempshall
Supreme Emperor Holocomm 06:21, 19 March 2024 (UTC)