Forum:CT:Translation, Articles titles

This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made in the Senate Hall or new Consensus track pages rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record.
The result of the debate was support. OOM 224 (he/him/they) 17:23, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

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It is high time I start my policy updating season, because I have a lot on my plate and I am already way too late on some of the items I'm going to present in the coming weeks (such as translation, credits, interviews, etc.)...

What follows is a proposal to codify how we handle documents (and thus articles) titles when those are in a language that is not English. The principles supporting this rule are simple: any translation provided by editors is subject to interpretation, and official informations should always have priority. This idea was first proposed as part of the Forum:SH:Traduttore, Traditore Senate Hall topic.

Proposal

The proposal aim to modify the Naming policy "Real-world publications" section, first by proposing a new formatting to the section and second by introducing a new rule concerning languages other than English.

The content of the section will be reorganized so that the first paragraphs before the "Comics and magazines", "Novels and books" and "video games" will move to a new section: "General rules", itself divided between two sub-sections "Languages" and "Disambiguation". A new rule (in bold), is included at the end of the new "Languages" sub-section.

NB: Don't be confused by the color of the links of the first two examples, as they still reflect the current status quo, and will be updated once the policy is adopted.

Real-world publications

General rules

For real-world publications, use the title of the work as the article's name.

Languages

• If a source's title is in British English, it must not be converted into American English. The Travelling Jindas must always be referred to as such.
• If the U.S. and U.K. editions of a title differ, default to the U.S. edition's title (example: Star Wars: Rebellion, instead of Star Wars: Supremacy).
  • In this situation, use the U.K. edition's title if the U.K. edition's publication date precedes that of the U.S. edition by a considerable amount of time, such as several weeks or months (examples: Star Wars: Galactic Atlas, instead of Star Wars: Galactic Maps: An Illustrated Atlas of the Star Wars Universe; Adventures in Wild Space: The Steal, instead of Adventures in Wild Space: The Heist).
• If a spelling difference exists between the U.S. and U.K. editions of a title, default to the U.S. edition's title (example: Art of Coloring: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story, instead of Art of Colouring: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story).

→ See Forum:CT:Naming policy: US vs. UK editions

• For works published exclusively in a language other than English, unless an official source or the author themselves provided an English version of that title, use the title in the original language. Examples:
  • Le Secret de Yeager in French, instead of Yeager's Secret.
  • Star Wars - Das offizielle Magazin in German, instead of Star Wars - The Official Magazine.
  • The Vow of Silver Dawn (per Matt Martin), instead of 白银誓约 in simplified Chinese.
  • Star Wars: The Dark Side (per Tricia Barr), instead of Star Wars: El Lado Oscuro in Spanish, or Star Wars : Le côté obscur in French.
• A redirect should always be created at the other relevant title (even if the English title has not been provided by an official source).

Disambiguation

To disambiguate, add the type of literary work in parentheses, such as "(novel)," "(comic)," or "(short story)." Articles may use "(book)" to disambiguate a non-fiction book. For novelizations, such as film novelizations or junior film novelizations, use either "(novelization)" or "(junior novelization)" as appropriate.

→ See Forum:CT:Naming policy amendments: Books

Whenever a book has different editions, list them after a comma when the edition is a part of the formal title, and without italics if it is not formally part of the book's title (example: Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game, Second Edition, but Galaxy Guide 1: A New Hope, Second Edition).

→ See Forum:CT:How to name publication edition, redux

To disambiguate for any publication type not covered in the following sections, use the type of literary work, such as "(short story)" (example: The Tale of the Aiwha Pod (short story))

- NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 13:17, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 13:17, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Brilliant work. OOM 224 (he/him/they) 13:22, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
3. Tommy-Macaroni (he/they) 13:27, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Sanathestarr (talk) 13:53, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
5. Imperators II^(Talk) 14:50, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
6. 01miki10 ^{Open comlink} 14:53, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
7. Good luck to whoever has to un-translate all of the Category:LEGO Star Wars (magazine) comics, won't be me lol. Cade Calrayn 14:54, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
8. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 15:39, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
9. CometSmudge (talk) 15:52, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
10. —spookywilloww^talk 22:26, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
11. JMAS ^{Hey, it's me!} 03:54, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
12. Zed42 ^(talk) 07:30, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
13. Hotdog. NBDani (they/them)^{Yeager's Repairs} 13:09, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
14. Rakhsh (talk) 13:26, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
15. Bonzane10 15:58, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
16. grunny@wookieepedia:~$ 16:47, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
17. Lewisr (talk) 21:31, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
18. Wok142 (talk) 17:37, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
19. Darth Soda (talk) 17:41, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
20. Ayrehead02 (talk) 17:50, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
21. ThrawnChiss7 ^{Assembly Cupola} 18:38, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• Thanks to the editors who provided comments during the SH and the early review process. Also, a formatting update of the section was necessary, as it was way too chaotic, and I didn't made it a separate vote because it would not have made sense to pass the rule without some cleanup to make it fit nicely within the naming policy, which as a whole probably need a good formatting do-over, but that's for someone else to worry about ^^. NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 13:17, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
• To clarify if the Non English work's title is a translation of an English work such as Labyrinth of Evil (German audio drama) is the original work's title considered the official translation? If that makes sense? Basically I am curious where should the names fall for the German audio dramas? - ThePedantry (talk) 21:52, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Well, that's not something I had thought off, and I'm not sure what to answer quite frankly; I feel like we should have the title in german, but that's certainly different from the other cases, and it does warrant some renewed discussions in a separate SH that would lead to another policy update ^^. NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 22:50, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
    • There was an effort earlier this year to rename them to "english name" (German audio drama), mostly because it allows easier searching, but if they at least exist as redirects then that solves that issue. - ThePedantry (talk) 02:58, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
• Can we add an example to the final bullet point: "A redirect should always be created..." - ThePedantry (talk) 21:54, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
  • That's not necessary, since the examples of the first point already provides example of redirection, either with the translated title (Yeager's Secret) or with the original title (白银誓约 for example). I did make a note in the introduction that because the current status quo doesn't follow the rule at the moment, the links are not how they should appear in the policy (Yeager's Secret should be a redirection and appear orange for those who display it that way, but it's currently a regular link at the moment). NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 22:50, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
    • Fair enough. I guess I am mostly wondering if it should be "Yeager's Secret" or "Yeager's Secret (French junior novel)" kinda related to my other bullet point - ThePedantry (talk) 02:58, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
      • There is no need for disambiguation in that instance. NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 03:00, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
• Can I recommend adjusting the first point under Languages to "If a source's title is only in British English, it must not be converted into American English...." Otherwise, it sounds like it could almost be contradicting the next two points. For the subsection to point 2 of languages I suggest having it be specific - like 2 months or more. Several weeks could be subjective. - JMAS ^{Hey, it's me!} 04:03, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
  • The focus here is to introduce a new rule, not to update other parts of the current policy. Except for the new sectioning, I am not proposing any other change to the rest of the policy at the moment. NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 11:25, 22 September 2024 (UTC)