Forum:CT:Restore links to the Russian-language wiki

Forums > Consensus track archive > CT:Restore links to the Russian-language wiki
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The result of the debate was Oppose re-linking. Imperators II(Talk) 16:35, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Long story short:

Since the Wookieepedia administration had taken the initial decision to remove links to Russian-language Star Wars wiki on January 8, 2023, there have been some changes to the situation. That wiki, like this wiki, is hosted by Fandom, but has its own administration as with other Star Wars wikis. Per an announcement put in Wookieepedia's Discord server, the de-linking was done due to the rampant anti-LGBTQIA+ hate speech on the wiki, including by its administrators, using slurs in talk pages and misgendering both real-world and fictional people on content pages too. Such behaviour clearly violates our values of attribution and respect for individuals, not to mention Fandom's Terms of Use. The Wookieepedia administration deemed it necessary to protect our readers and editors by removing these links, which are often featured at the bottom of our articles via the ubiquitous {{Interlang}} template, and report the incident to Fandom staff.

A Russian-speaking Fandom International Wiki Representative attempted to intervene, including removing some obvious TOU-violating slurs, but the Russian-language admins and fellow established users persisted in their rhetoric claiming that they are justified due to the arbitrary anti-LGBTQIA+ laws of the authoritarian regime in Russia—despite the wiki being hosted by Fandom, a company in the United States.

The involved users have since been removed from power. Aruteous is now the sole admin of the Russian-language wiki. The Russian-language wiki has, working with the International Wiki Rep (the programme is now retired), attempted to compromise by removing instances of misgendering, incorrect pronoun usage, and incorrectly gendered terms—official Russian language translations for non-binary characters have been avoiding the use of gendered terms but do not specify that they prefer gender-neutral pronouns.

Aruteous says:

Concerning LGBT articles on the wiki, certain changes were made in recent months to make them compliant with the Fandom's rules. In the future, any changes to these articles will be monitored to ensure their content remains within the Fandom rules.

The Russian-language wiki is attempting to follow both Fandom rules and the law of the Russian Federation, and there are concerns with needing to avoid the ire of Russian state authorities, including retaliation and an internet firewall against Fandom.com. While Wookieepedia administrators such as myself have been trying, in extensive back-and-forth, to ask the Russian-language wiki to be eliminate the hostility in their language use, I believe only the first steps of progress are being taken, laws be damned. While the wiki addresses some gay relationships, it continues to use the term "sex" over "gender" in all cases and fails to document the genders of transgender characters and non-binary identities.

Should we, the English-language Wookieepedia, restore links to the Russian-language wiki? OOM 224 (he/him) 16:00, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Support re-linking

  1. I actually think this should be added, for a couple of reasons that I'll note in the discussion section, but noting here that I think the link should have a warning/notice. ℳÅℕ☉❂Ⅎ he/him/his 04:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose re-linking

  1. Authoritarianism is a system of fear. The tragedy is that certain regimes suppress human rights through whatever law they just made up, and people let it happen. That's not good enough. I'd love to keep up the dialogue with what should be our cross-wiki partners, but with the lack of openness on the part of the Russian-language wiki, it falls to us on Wookieepedia to shutter the links, lest we disservice ourselves, and say that we have hope that humanity will find its way. OOM 224 (he/him) 16:00, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
  2. As much as I appreciate the Russian wiki's user's efforts to fix things over there, there's a long way to go and even deference to Fandom's TOS/TOU will not make them unbeholden to Russia's own laws as Russian citizens. Frankly, as unfortunate as this seems, this is a matter of Russia's own laws and culture surrounding queerness improvng significantly. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 16:27, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
  3. While I appreciate the effort of the user who has worked to try and rebuild the connection between our communities, at this point in time, it feels like a one-man effort and everything I've seen from the Russian side has displayed either outright hostility or just apathy to the entire concept. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 19:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
  4. While the efforts of one user to fix the issues are commendable, it just falls short. It cannot be a single person changing everything, and for me to support relinking I would need to see concrete, well laid out policies and guidelines. This is, to be blunt, not going to happen. Queer people exist, and I will not support linking to a site that views their existance as illegal, immoral, or otherwise not welcome. Thank you to the efforts of one user to tackle this, and I hope in the future you are able to make long term, meaningful change occur there. Supreme Emperor Holocomm 19:59, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
  5. Yeah, about that. Hard no. —SnowedLightning (they/she) 20:53, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
  6. Sanathestarr (talk) 21:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
  7. lmao —spookywillowwtalk 21:12, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
  8. There is much to be said about my heritage as an American citizen and the resulting traditional dim view of, and historical opposition to, the depravities of the Russian state. But frankly that matters precious little to this debate. The Russian wiki specifically has failed to act in the professional, welcoming manner that we ought to expect from any Star Wars wiki we partner with through interlang links. This old and famous website has an unfortunate history that remains a shadow looming over us in the eyes of many in the wider Star Wars fanbase and as we try to work to improve our reputation, the last goddamn thing we need to do is signal we don't actually care about changing by linking our readers to a wiki that is actively opposed to any change at all. As a bisexual person, I don't exactly hold their cultural views on my very existence against them nor do I blame them for laws they have no say in making. I do, however, find their overall conduct in this manner unprofessional and intentionally disrespectful, both towards our website and the LGBT community. They have acted in an offensive manner with the intention to offend. They have debased themselves by doing this, and re-linking to them would not only debase our website as well but give the appearance of rewarding and endorsing such behavior. Our readers deserve better than to be linked to such a wiki. Fan26 (Talk) 21:18, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
  9. Lewisr (talk) 21:44, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
  10. NanoLuukeCloning Facility 23:58, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
  11. Yeah, personally still can't support this at this time. Imperators II(Talk) 08:54, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
  12. Ayrehead02 (talk) 11:00, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
  13. A step in the right direction but I need more than half-measures to support. Tommy-Macaroni (he/they) 11:02, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
  14. Zed42 (talk) 12:19, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
  15. Bonzane10 Sabine Starbird (holonet) 15:47, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
  16. NBDani TeamFireballLogo-Collider(they/them)Yeager's Repairs 17:34, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
  17. Rakhsh (talk) 19:50, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
  18. Master FredceriqueCommerce Guild(talk) (he/him) 20:43, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
  19. 01miki10 Open comlink 20:30, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
  20. Editoronthewiki (talk) 02:16, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

  • Reasons I've voted support: ℳÅℕ☉❂Ⅎ he/him/his 04:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
    • X-language wikis don't just cater to people from X country, whether that is Russian or another language. How many non-English speaking countries do our readers come from? This is detrimental to anyone who speaks that language. ℳÅℕ☉❂Ⅎ he/him/his 04:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
      • The Russian language Star Wars wiki is not hard to find. People will find it just fine without it being linked here. Supreme Emperor Holocomm 04:58, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
    • Effort has been made and growth continually happens, imagine the uproar if Wookieepedia had been blocked back in the day because of the way it treated women, LGBTI+ and trans people/characters, and refused to unblock us because things hadn't changed "enough" by their standard? It sounds like the offending content has been removed, and they are working on improving things. How do we determine when they have done "enough" to re-link? How many users need to be involved? ℳÅℕ☉❂Ⅎ he/him/his 04:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
      • Had we been blocked for our actions in the past, it would have been absolutely justified. There are indeed still several TOU issues as well, however that is for Fandom to address. We are *not* required to link to a site that views the mere existance of the LGBTQIA community as illegal, immoral, or otherwise bad. Given your support for the LGBTQIA community here, I am, to be blunt, very surprised to see you voting to restore links to a site that does not respect that community. Supreme Emperor Holocomm 04:57, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
    • I'm against censorship in a general sense, which I feel this crossed the line into. It's one thing to protect users because of rampant use of slurs and the like, it's another thing to refuse to link to the site because of the language of its users, and associations and actions of that could tries government. ℳÅℕ☉❂Ⅎ he/him/his 04:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
      • We are not refusing to link based on the language, we are choosing not to link based on the fact they continue to belittle, misgender, and otherwise harm the LGBTQIA community. Supreme Emperor Holocomm 04:57, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
        • Would like to add that they recently just deleted Sister (and restored it), the canon trans character, because "the article was poorly written" or "poorly mistranslated" instead of actually correctly working on it. I can't say linking to a wiki that gets rid of queer content when it's not up to standards instead of fixing it is smart. I am also not a fan of how the queer voices of the English wiki are being disregarded in your vote, Manoof. I would advise you to be very careful you're not speaking above queer folks. —SnowedLightning (they/she) 04:59, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
          • I will only be addressing the latter part of your response due to its nature. Only Fan has above identified as bisexual, I didn't realise we were requiring people to disclose their gender/sexual orientation and counting those votes separately. I didn't realise having a different view would result in a warning and assumptions about my own gender/orientation. Speaking above anyone requires power, which I have none, either formally as an admin nor informally with the backing of a voting majority or friends with those with official power. To say I am speaking above a group of people infers I'm am not part of that group, I don't need to explain my gender or orientation to you nor anyone, and feel that doing so is crossing a boundary. I won't engage further because I don't feel safe in engaging in a discussion that has so quickly jumped to such accusations against my identity, and infers that I need to do so in order for my opinion to be counted as valid or not. ℳÅℕ☉❂Ⅎ he/him/his 01:19, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
            • Since you mentioned me, I only brought up that I was bisexual to explain that while I am someone who falls into the category of people whose existence the Russian wiki denies, my issue is as much with how the Russian wiki has conducted itself in this affair as my personal feelings on it. Likewise, I personally don't believe whether or not you are queer negates your point or means you're "speaking above queer folks". I disagree with your arguments, Manor, because I don't think they're good arguments , not because of whether you and I fall into the same broad category of LBGT+ people, and I do disagree with your arguments on their own merits, not because of whatever identities either of us have. Fan26 (Talk) 01:36, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
            • Hi. Please, don't conflate Russian government and Russian Wook. Demetrius has already mentioned that not every country has freedom of speech, and Russian government has already banned/firewalled one wiki before (Russian LGBT Wiki specifically). Also, Russian Wook does not deny bisexual people's existence - homosexual and bisexual relationships between characters are actually documented there (Aphra and Tolvan, including image of their kiss, Aphra and Starros, Esmelle and Shirene, and others). Такос2 (talk) 16:25, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
          • With all due respect, every person's vote and opinion have a right to be independent from others, queer or not. There is no obligation to vote a certain way because others have voted in a certain way, otherwise why even hold a voting session? Demetrius Viridianus (talk) 21:43, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
            • Every person's vote counts, yes, but when you're ignoring queer voices because you think they've done enough, when queer voices are saying otherwise? That's speaking out of line, fullstop. —SnowedLightning (they/she) 22:20, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
              • Correct me if I misinterpret you: you are saying that a vote that disagrees with a vote of a queer person is "out of line", so… illegitimate? I hope I do misinterpret you, because otherwise it would imply that this particular vote should only be held between LGBTQ+ members of the community, which hopefully shouldn't be the case. Demetrius Viridianus (talk) 22:58, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
                • I think you might be, yes. I'm not saying you can't disagree, but when you're saying that they've done enough (as comments seem to have absolutely implied) and that we need to re-link the RU wiki because there has been one person talking with the admins is speaking over those queer folks who are saying that the "efforts" (which there really have not been any efforts barring one user who is a.) not an administrator and b.) not a contributor and c.) does not have permission to speak on behalf of the entire RU community) are enough and that we should be disregarding the blatant queerphobia and slurs that are still used on the wiki and by its members is absolutely queerphobic in nature and completely ignores everything that has been done by this community. They have mocked the EN community multiple times, continue to use disgusting slurs, and quite frankly, the word of one member does not represent the entire community. When a queer person is saying that not enough is being done to make sure things are safe for queer folks, disregarding that and saying "well they're trying" is honestly just dismissive of those who are affected by queerphobia on a daily basis. —SnowedLightning (they/she) 23:08, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
                  • This is not quite correct. First, technically: User:Aruteous is the current sole administrator of the Wiki, as the post above outlines, and collaborated with User:Такос2, which makes at least two. (Of course, as I mentioned below, there are still quite enough queerphobic people on Russian Wook - but would you suggest interviewing everyone who makes an edit anywhere to prevent that? Sounds way beyond an open wikia's mandate.) Second, more importantly, of course it is not enough for absolute safety, but safety is never absolute, and then there's the question of incentives. A person may well legitimately feel that rewarding half-measures is good because prompts further measures, while rejecting them with a "holier-than-thou" attitude causes bitterness and alienation rather than striving to do better - and thinking so is not "speaking over queer voices" or queerphobic, rather than honest disagreement in policy evaluation. In other words, "enough to reward" and "enough to stop working" are two quite different enoughs. Demetrius Viridianus (talk) 17:41, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
          • Also, deleting a poorly written article in order to rewrite it better later has been done before, it is… well, maybe not standard but occasionally used measure without any relation to the recent laws. Thus the deletion-and-restoration of Sister is not a good pointer. Demetrius Viridianus (talk) 21:43, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
          • I also feel the need to point out here, that *they* are the ones who have chosen to censor and hide queer content, based on their interpretations of Russian law. Putting that aside, this is something that has been ongoing for a very, very long time. It's clear that this is not going to change, and I'm not voting to relink to a site that considers documenting the existance of queer people as illegal. Supreme Emperor Holocomm 05:06, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
      • This isn't because of their language. This is because of their policies on articles relating to certain characters, which they have attempted to defend by invoking their local laws on LGBT content, and their general unprofessional, disrespectful behaviour when dealing with Wookieepedia over this matter. Fan26 (Talk) 05:00, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
        • The quality of the discussion has been rather… low, often on both sides, I am afraid. People frequently spoke past each other. Demetrius Viridianus (talk) 21:43, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
          • Wookieepedia has not done anything to the Russian wiki that is equivalent to the way the Russian wiki has behaved in regards to its interactions with Wookieepedia or in regards to its coverage of LGBT content Fan26 (Talk) 23:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
            • It has unilaterally removed links, which is perceived as worse because "mixing business with personal" (I am very much not kidding). And regarding interactions - frankly, coming with Google Translate and trying to evaluate an article's compliance based on that and unilaterally edit it is insulting, and this is how it started. Demetrius Viridianus (talk) 17:26, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
              • Might I just step in briefly to remind you that Fan specified "equivalent," and I believe the point being made is that throwing explicit slurs around is absolutely incomparable to a Wookieepedia editor branching out to another wiki to make edits—just as any person, on principle, is very much welcome to edit Wookieepedia—to correct an instance of misgendering, per the Fandom Terms of Use. OOM 224 (he/him) 17:51, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
                • This reflects difference in attitude. 1) A median member of that community will prefer to have seen a slur than to have their work disrespected and harmed. (I know I would, because "sticks and stones..." and "don't mix pleasure with business".) So, yeah, they did the "incomparable" comparison and came to the opposite conclusion, in a very predictable-to-me fashion. 2)As I had told some of you before, due to very intense fights around Star Wars: The Clone Wars making mess of continuity some ten-fifteen years ago, the standard tradition at Russian Wookieepedia has since been "do not make edits that are likely to cause arguments without previous discussion on talk page". Demetrius Viridianus (talk) 19:00, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
              • The links were removed because of the Russian wiki's content regarding LGBT characters. If the Russian Wiki did not want the interlanguage links removed or to feel insulted, they were perfectly welcome to not deliberately cover LGBT content in as disrespectful, unprofessional a manner possible. Fan26 (Talk) 17:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
                • Indeed. Yet the way Immi Thrax originally approached it (talking via Google Translate and editing without understanding of the text) was very much unhealthy, which didn't help the debate at all. As I said to her back then: "I have, indeed, read the discussion. I still think that the language barrier played a bigger negative role in their assessment of your edits and your later comments than you might think. (Although you were right in the core of your actions, of course! And I am really disappointed in some of my former co-editors...)" Demetrius Viridianus (talk) 19:00, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
    • Fandom is responsible for that wiki and ensuring they meet ToU, if they are meeting that, I don't think we should be stepping in. If there continues to be concerns on the accuracy of that wiki, when it comes to gender and pronouns, it is a tad hypocritical of Wookieepedia when this was only addressed here in the last year. And if there are serious concerns, maybe the inter language template needs to be updated to note that other language wikis are maintained by users on those sites, and may have inaccuracies due to limitations of the language, mistranslations of the source material in English, etc. ℳÅℕ☉❂Ⅎ he/him/his 04:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
      • I think there's been a misunderstanding here. As one of the admins leading the talks, the problem is not with any user's political viewpoints or the language of the wiki, but the wiki community's past extremely vocal bigotry and now insistence on the so-called laws of their language that is refusing to accept that language is fluid and can harm, preventing them from recognising trans identities in good faith. Given that the talks have collapsed, the one thing we on Wookieepedia can do to protect our readers is to affirm that we stop actively presenting links to a wiki with content that is presented and omitted in a harmful way. OOM 224 (he/him) 09:55, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
        • The linguistic side of the question is not simple. It is not enough to say "language is fluid" because, while languages change, there are certain tendencies to how it can change and trying to regulate it essentially top-down is fraught with its own risks - most obviously, backlash and, more specifically, artificiality of the text. In particular, there is no good reflection of singular "they", because of a quite idiosyncretic way that pronoun developed in English, as I had commented before: "оно" (it) is offensive because dehumanizing, "они" (plural they) is, unlike in English, uniformly plural (i.e. it isn't, e.g., used in the translation equivalent of "Everyone took their bag": in such contexts, when cop-out with reflexive possessive "свой" is not available, forms of "он" (he) are used), and "он" (he) and "она" (she) are gendered - and often with respect to word's grammatical gender rather than natural gender. Thus, for instance, Hero of Tython article read at some point (quoting from memory): "The gender of the character is unknown. We use the pronoun он based on "герой" being grammatically masculine". Demetrius Viridianus (talk) 21:43, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
  • For a sanction to be effective (what this is essentially), there needs to be a concerted effort, are these links removed across all the other language Star Wars wikis? Was this independent of wookieepedia's actions or did they follow our lead? ℳÅℕ☉❂Ⅎ he/him/his 04:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
    • What other communities do or do not do is entirely up to their communities. However, I do believe a few other Star Wars wikis did follow our lead. Supreme Emperor Holocomm 04:57, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
  • I have read the community's concerns about the Russian Star Wars Wiki's history of hostility towards the LGBT community. Despite my Christian beliefs, I recognize we should treat others the way we would want to be treated, and thus not deny people's identities. While I commend the Russian Wiki for taking steps to right these wrongs by removing the reactionary "old guard," I agree that more work is needed to foster change within the community. This is a process that will take time and needs the support of the community. Despite the peculiarities of Russian law, Fandom's policies should be upheld by affiliated Wikis. While I agree with the community that we should hold off restoring links with the Russian Star Wars Wiki until we can verify that they are genuinely committed to change, I am concerned that continuing the policy of exclusion might discourage change towards a more inclusive and welcoming community. With the ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine, I think we need to preserve ties and communications with more liberal-minded Russian speakers. I am not condoning Russian aggression towards Ukraine but am concerned about burning all bridges with Russian Star Wars fans because of real world politics. I apologise if what I have written may come across as controversial or offensive. Happy to discuss these thoughts and concerns with other Wookieepedians. Andykatib 13:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
    • I'm not sure where you got Russia's invasion of Ukraine from because that's not a concern here, it's the actions of the Russian-language Star Wars wiki that are the topic of discussion Fan26 (Talk) 16:00, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
      • I understand your point. Sorry for going off topic. Could we maintain lines of communication with the Russian Wiki users in order to monitor the situation there? If they are able to bring about a culture of change towards the LGBT community, we could hopefully restore links in the future. I will respect whatever decision the Wookieepedia community reaches. Andykatib 18:44, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
        • That's somewhat the thing—we do, or have, rather, maintained communication, ever since the delinking, and especially in the last few months as this issue was being discussed; as evidenced by the Message Wall comment and/or other Fandom liasons. But, ultimately the site still resorts to misgendering characters, continues to host an extremely queerphobic post on their social media without taking it down, and just flat-out deleted a trans character's page rather than cede to list her as female without other quantifying fluff words. So, we do monitor what they're up to, and suggest on ways to improve, but usually come up on the somewhat-brick-wall of us not willing to bend morally to Russia's laws (because, ick) even if they have to. That's not to say English Wook has always been great about this either, and people would've been in the right to delink us in the past too. But until that change happens, we wait.—spookywillowwtalk 18:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
          • Regarding the social media post specifically: the VK group is still in the hands of some of the originally-banned users, thus Aruteous can't delete the post even if he wanted to. Demetrius Viridianus (talk) 18:43, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
          • Thanks Spookywillow, in light of these concerns about the queerphobic post and the trans character's page, I agree it is best to continue our policy while still maintaining lines of communication. While we can take into account cultural and political differences arising from the countries that other Fandoms' editors come from, there are still universal laws that they need to follow. Hope for the better. Andykatib 20:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Interlanguage warning

  • As noted above, we have no control of other language Star Wars wikis, and things can change swiftly or over time without us monitoring, particularly if no wook users read that language, or visit that website. Shouldn't we have a generic notice in the interlang template giving users a heads up? Including that users may have political affiliations with related governments and may support a governments views in the language used in the website. ℳÅℕ☉❂Ⅎ he/him/his 04:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
    • I would advise to reformulate that. You would not need to support a government's views to try to avoid its penalties. Not every country allows for free speech. (Note that, monitoring discussion both here and there, some people there - e.g. Такос2, see below - don't support the queerphobic views at all, while others - I won't give names or user handles for obvious reasons - actually do.) Demetrius Viridianus (talk) 21:43, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Existing precedents

  • Hi. Before I write this message, I want to clarify that I don't support these harsh Russian laws against LGBT people and against their existence, neither do I support attacks on LGBT people. Russian regulators have already banned/firewalled one Russian wiki on this topic — LGBT Wiki, and when there were still Russian staff-members, some articles in different wikis were deleted to comply with local laws. Also, the entire site of Metacritic was banned in Russia because of one game article. So, the thought is - doing more to recognize LGBT people will very likely result in Russian Wook's ban, and not change Russian gov's position — Russian Wook is one of the biggest Russian wikis, and the previous delinking was already mentioned in Russian Wikipedia as an example of "Cancel culture". I should note that Russian Wikipedia does not support Russian Gov. If you ask about why it was not banned - likely because of its sheer mass and popularity, but Russian gov. still demanded to delete info on war in Ukraine and tried to create wiki-clones. Такос2 (talk) 15:05, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
    • I do wonder if being potentially blocked in Russia, where a majority of the Russian-speaking community (although by no means all) resides, would be an acceptable loss in the eyes of the local community. Which would, mind you, be a consistent position to hold (cf. war journalism: of course it is Medusa not Komsomolskaya Pravda who's the real journalist, and of course they got blocked for the trouble, and it was predictable, and writing what they consider the truth was still the right thing to do), but if that's the case, I believe the community would do well to articulate this directly, so that Russian Wook users would know that there's no use in trying to navigate between Scylla and Charybdis. Demetrius Viridianus (talk) 21:43, 6 May 2024 (UTC)