Forum:TC:Thundering Herd

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This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or, if the page was deleted, in the Senate Hall rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was Keep. Imperators II(Talk) 22:08, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Thundering Herd

As much as I'd love to have another canon Imperial military unit, this article must be deleted for the following reasons:

Thundering Herd is mentioned in Star Wars: Complete Vehicles from 2018 and in Star Wars Complete Vehicles, New Edition from 2020. Its existence, however, is contradictory. Both sources use the same exact text, which states, "- General Maximilian Veers commands both the Thundering Herd AT-AT squadron and the elite Imperial snowtrooper unit Blizzard Force." This establishes that the All Terrain Armored Transports used by Veers on Hoth belonged to the Thundering Herd. However, various canon material contradict this.

The 2015 Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know establishes "What is Blizzard Force? It is an elite Imperial stormtrooper unit that specialized in cold-weather operations. In their fearsome AT-AT walkers, these snowtroopers spearhead the ground assault that overruns Echo Base during the Battle of Hoth. They are led by the bold and ruthless General Maximilian Veers."

The 2016 Star Wars: Complete Locations establishes "-Veers' contingent of AT-ATs (large, four-legged walkers) and AT-STs (medium bipeds) — dubbed Blizzard Force — begins its inexorable march on the rebel facility."

Star Wars Helmet Collection 6 establishes "When Darth Vader put together his Death Squad fleet group, created to hunt for the Rebel Alliance base, he seconded the elite snowtroopers of Blizzard Force. Led by General Veers, these troops were trained to use AT-ATs and AT-STs to terrifying effect, and specialized in cold-weather operations. They formed the ground assault force that took and destroyed the rebel base on Hoth."

Star Wars Helmet Collection 9 establishes "Alliance snow speeders were no match for the AT-AT walkers of Blizzard Force, the elite unit led by General Veers."

Star Wars Helmet Collection 29 establishes "Blizzard Force, a squadron of elite snowtroopers, were part of the 501st Legion — Darth Vader's own troops. They took their name from their particularly aggressive tactics, which saw them hit hard and fast, using a variety of ground vehicles. This included AT-AT walkers and AT-STs that were deployed to such devastating effect at the Battle of Hoth."

The 2017 Star Wars: The Rebel Files establishes from an in-universe perspective on the Battle of Hoth, "These were Blizzard Force AT-ATs, shielded against weather and wind, able to shrug off hundreds of hits."

Additionally, the 2017 Star Wars: On the Front Lines uses the phrase "the walkers of Blizzard Force" and establishes that Veers personally selected all AT-AT drivers serving in Blizzard Force.

The 2020 "The Battle of Hoth and the Second Death Star" has an entire section (albeit in French) that maintains the information from the previous sources that Blizzard Force was composed of elite snowtroopers and AT-ATs and AT-STs.

In addition to this reference material, there is also story material. From a Certain Point of View: The Empire Strikes Back, in "The Truest Duty," the novel establishes "The unit Veers commanded was Blizzard Force, so named because the AT-ATs were specifically designed to function well in cold-weather operations. Veers had personally selected each and every soldier who served in this unit. His AT-AT was, of course, Blizzard One." It also establishes the following after AT-ATs began being destroyed: "Blizzard Force was taking more casualties than expected, and this troubled Veers. These were his soldiers. His unit."

It's known that the only two sources of Thundering Herd, Complete Vehicles 2018 and Complete Vehicles, New Edition copied text from previous visual dictionaries and complete vehicle/location books from Star Wars Legends. Because of this, in addition to contradicting every other piece of material on the subject, the Thundering Herd article should be deleted, with the discrepancy noted in the Behind the scenes section of the Blizzard Force article. This could have been avoided if the two conflicting sources established that Thundering Herd was a subunit of Blizzard Force, but it was never established as such, unfortunately. --Vitus InfinitusTalk 22:58, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Delete and note in Blizzard Force BTS

--Vitus InfinitusTalk 22:58, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
  1. AV-6R7 (talk) 23:04, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
  2. Bring out the thundersnow. Immi Thrax (talk) 23:06, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Keep

  1. Per Tope below. --Vitus InfinitusTalk 18:37, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
  2. Same. NanoLuukeCloning facility 01:30, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
  3. Per Tope's comments. Technically there's nothing indicating the two terms are mutually exclusive. Imperators II(Talk) 08:08, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
  4. OOM 224 ༼༽talk༼༽ 08:09, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
  5. Wok142 (talk) 20:46, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
  6. Gonna have to agree. Corellian PremierRogue SquadronMTFBWY 22:24, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
  7. CT-1742 (talk) 01:31, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
  8. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 01:34, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
  9. JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 01:55, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
  10. Per the above (and the below). Zed42 (talk) 06:33, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
  11. VergenceScatter (talk) 14:16, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
  12. Ayrehead02 (talk) 14:23, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
  13. Tommy-Macaroni 14:25, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
  14. Fan26 (Talk) 00:30, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
  15. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk)

Comments

  • I will note for the record that Canon basically faces the same situation as Legends in trying to determine what exactly Thundering Herd is supposed to be. The name Thundering Herd was created in Legends before the name Blizzard Force came to prominence, which effectively replaced Thundering Herd, and nothing ever clarified the relationship between the two. So by my interpretation at least, we're left to consider that Thundering Herd was a squadron of AT-ATs within the larger Blizzard Force, which obviously encompasses a wider array of units. The two names don't need to be mutually exclusive, and from what I'm seeing in the cited Canon source examples, I'm not sure this situation can't be reconciled. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 23:07, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
    • Interesting predicament. It's a shame that it couldn't simply be fixed by stating that Thundering Herd was a subunit of Blizzard Force, but Star Wars is never easy on us editors. The investigation into the result of having a TC emerged from a slight incorrect assumption that Thundering Herd *was* a subunit. :P --Vitus InfinitusTalk 23:13, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
      • Right, and my point is that you're interpreting the sources to mean that it wasn't a subunit, but nothing ever says that. Unless something is a completely irreconcilable contradiction or error, our goal should always be to try and integrate everything where we can, and I think this is a perfectly reasonable approach. I will reiterate that this is effectively exactly what we're doing for Legends. If we were to do what you're suggesting with this TC, then we should also just redirect the Legends Thundering Herd page to Blizzard Force/Legends and call it an error, which I don't think is the right thing to do. I think it would be better to maintain the Canon Thundering Herd page and note in the BTS that an ostensible (and I emphasize ostensible, because they're not necessarily mutually exclusive, as I stated) inconsistency exists that awaits clarification. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 23:18, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
        • Oh, I see. Are you suggesting that perhaps the Thundering Herd AT-AT squadron is not actually seen in ESB and is irrelevant to Blizzard Force, and that the source mentioned that Veers commands several units which includes Thundering Herd and Blizzard Force? --Vitus InfinitusTalk 23:28, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
          • Not at all. What I'm saying is that the sources are not clear, so we need to choose which way to interpret this. My position is that there is no definite error or contradiction here, so it would be perfectly reasonable for us to interpret Thundering Herd as a subunit of the larger Blizzard Force (which, again, is what we're doing with Legends). Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 23:34, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
            • So essentially, the Thundering Herd would be, for example, Torrent Company, and Blizzard Force is the 501st Legion. So when the text says -> "Veers commanded the Thundering Herd squadron and the Blizzard Force snowtrooper unit" it would be like saying "This general commanded Torrent Company and the 501st Legion," one being a subunit of the other. --Vitus InfinitusTalk 00:18, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
              • Exactly. And Veers is in overall command of Blizzard Force, so he's running the entire show. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 00:26, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
    • It seems to me that the two canon sources naming Thundering Herd aren't reliable for re-establishing Legends material in the new canon since they're simply copy-pasting text from Legends, whereas the non-copying sources and appearance streamlined Veers's command down to Blizzard Force and didn't re-establish Thundering Herd as one of them or part of it. (On the other hand, most of the new canon stuff on Blizzard Force isn't direct from/overseen by LSG... not that LSG is a guarantee of accuracy!) If kept, I'd like to confirm: the Thundering Herd text out-of-context doesn't tell us it was present at the Battle of Hoth, but does it do so in-context (like putting it in a Battle of Hoth section)? Immi Thrax (talk) 00:08, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
      • I think it's a really dangerous precedent for us to start picking and choosing what we think applies or doesn't apply to Canon from these books. Our job is to simply document, not to try and make heads or tails of confusing things. So it's not up for us to decide that Thundering Herd doesn't fit into this equation. And I can't answer topical questions about this subject's application; that's up for Canon editors to determine that on the ground level, so to speak. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 00:26, 16 March 2021 (UTC)