Forum:TC:Mister/Miss Star Wars vote archives

Forums > Trash compactor archive > TC:Mister/Miss Star Wars vote archives

This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or, if the page was deleted, in the Senate Hall rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was Delete. Imperators II(Talk) 17:37, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Hey, all. I'm thinking it's about time we get rid of the vote archive pages for the discontinued Mister and Miss Star Wars contest. Some of the comments on those, especially Miss Star Wars, are... problematic, and I think that if we are to try and make this place more welcoming to female editors, electing to not keep these archived is a good idea. The results pages of each year's contest (example) I believe are fine to keep as they have a bit more of a historical value.

(Less importantly, getting rid of these will make life easier for the admins and image uploaders who have to maintain the galleries on them :P.) Imperators II(Talk) 15:10, 20 October 2022 (UTC)


Delete

  1. As nominator. Imperators II(Talk) 15:10, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  2. Whenever I did maintenance in the past, I've always wondered why we kept those around... NanoLuukeCloning Facility 15:17, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
    Archived in the bin. Samonic Signatureicon (Talk) 16:06, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  3. 01miki10 Open comlink 16:24, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  4. These offer little value, so if a non-admin really wants to see the vote archives for 2005-2017 after they're deleted, then just use archive.org or whatever, but keeping them officially on the Wookieepedia namespace isn't a great idea. The ew from the earlier years can go. (Thanks to a procedural change in archiving Mister/Miss, the 2018 and 2019 votes are in the edit history of the vote pages themselves, and there aren't any problematic comments that I can see on them anyway.) OOM 224 16:46, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  5. Speaking as one of the women who's felt uncomfortable about these, I can't say enough: DELETE. Whenever I've ended up on one of them, such as checking images, I'm left wondering: would this still be tolerated now? Or would people call out how unacceptable it is and how it creates a hostile environment? As OOM said, if someone must know what was there, archive.org has the backups (heck, I'll kick off a fresh one). I've summarized the old Miss/Mister Star Wars before as "Mister Star Wars: he's so cool! / Miss Star Wars: she's so HOT!" There's more harm than benefit in maintaining them. Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (she/her) (talk) 16:57, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
    After looking at the 2005 and 2006 Mister Star Wars archives, they also objectify women (ex. "so-and-so is so lucky to be with her"), along with sex jokes, homophobia, and transphobia, so they aren't problem-free. Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (she/her) (talk) 18:42, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
  6. NBDani TeamFireballLogo-ColliderYeager's Repairos 17:18, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  7. I don't really see any reason to delete the Mister Star Wars since we don't have the objectification problem over there AFAIK, but we definitely need to get rid of the shit on the Miss Star Wars pages VergenceScatter (talk) 19:11, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  8. Dentface (talk) 21:31, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  9. Per above, particularly OOM and ImmiEditoronthewiki (talk) 01:52, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
  10. Per above. I do think a record of *how many* votes there were and perhaps *why* they were removed should be kept, but overall there is no reason they should remain. - DFaceG (talk) 01:56, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
  11. Per above. These comments are unnecessary and should not be anywhere on this platform. User:SnowedLightning/Sig2
  12. Nuke it. Keeping something for the sake of "historical record", when those records can be found quite easily (Hey archive websites!) doesn't make sense. Policy is always the general rule, we can and do use votes (in CT and here in TC) to override and provide exception cases where called for. It also isn't right, as our constant updates and tweaks attest to. So this isn't circumventing policy, its confirming an exception to the rule. The comments are cringe at best. Derogatory, misogynistic and pedophilic at worst. There is no benefit to keeping the pages and we lose nothing by deleting them. And so my vote is cast Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 03:08, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
  13. After going through the many absolutely disgusting comments on the Miss Star Wars pages, delete this. Nuke it. An overwhelming majority in some cases need to be completely redacted, and we don't need the history of this here. Delete it, and don't look back. This was a different age, and we've outgrown these dumb sexual "jokes" that came at the expense of our entire female editor base. Supreme Emperor Holocomm 07:43, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
  14. Delete this in its entirety. There's nothing useful there, and plenty of it breaks Fandom's Terms of Use. Keeping it but redacting some or all of the comments would require someone going through and doing the emotionally taxing labour of being exposed to all of the virulent misogyny and we could simply avoid all of that by deleting it wholesale. Dropbearemma (she/her) 08:46, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
  15. Rakhsh (talk) 09:37, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
  16. I'm not the world's biggest fan of the sequel trilogy, but... "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to." SilverSunbird (talk) 18:50, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
  17. —spookywillowwtalk 19:27, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
  18. Jedi Sarith LeKit (talk) 05:01, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
  19. While it's sad to lose some of the record of fun community moments like Kesin Ommis winning, I can't deny the arguments that I've seen that the entire original premise of these contests was problematic and so a large proportion of it was tainted by that. Having started to go through the old votes, there's just an overwhelming amount of gross stuff in there, to the point where so much will be redacted it kind defeats any point of saving it anyway. If this was a policy vote or something of substance then I'd vote differently, but this wasn't anything with any impact on the mainspace of the site itself and it's better we just purge it completely. Ayrehead02 (talk) 09:54, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
  20. My natural inclination was to keep, for the reasons many of the people below have said. But I also don't want anybody to feel uncomfortable over something as trivial as these, and I really don't like the prospect of selectively redacting certain comments. After talking to Immi, I'm satisfied that this is the best (or least-worst anyway) option overall. I would like to see the list of nominations and final vote counts retained though. Green Tentacle (Talk) 22:21, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
  21. Cylstar (talk) 22:33, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
  22. DarthRuiz30 (talk) 06:27, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
    Really seems weird to do anything but delete these wholesale tbh Fan26 (Talk) 22:41, 26 October 2022 (UTC) (Vote struck, reason: Per policy: Blocked user -- OOM 224 07:31, 2 November 2022 (UTC))
  23. It's not like we keep archive pages for the Character of the Year stuff anyways. Braha'tok enthusiast Hello there 17:49, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
  24. Even for users who didn't comment sexist things, the theme of Mr and Ms Star Wars was very much Cool Guy and Hot Girl. We don't lose a lot in archiving these, and these can be backed up in archive websites anyway. We've deleted all of the April Fool's stuff and other old pages from Wookieepedia that no longer serve a purpose if my memory serves correctly. If the women of this community feel that this type of content, no matter if it's redacted or not since the idea is still there, has to go, then I support it. --Vitus InfinitusTalk 19:00, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
  25. After having tried to go through all these comments individually and judge their offensiveness, I've determined there's really no use. It would take weeks and is simply a waste of time. We have the winners recorded. No need in keeping the pages. Let's just move on. MasterFredCommerce Guild(talk) (he/him) 23:24, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
  26. Per Green Tentacle and JMAC's comment below. I think we should keep them for the sake of historical record, but those comments may make someone feel uncomfortable, even if redacted. LucaRoR Sigil of House Serenno (Talk) 08:21, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Keep

  1. It's a valid historical record of past events. While it might be cringy or uncomfortable, I don't support erasing it. <-Omicron(Leave a message at the BEEP!) 16:25, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  2. Agreed with Omicron. The Talk page policy (which applies to all discussion, not just article talk pages) states that comments may not be removed without a valid reason (as outlined by the policy). If comments in the archives violate the rules, they may be redacted, but deleting the entire vote page is not appropriate. I am also against using the Trash compactor process to circumvent existing policy. 1358 (Talk) 19:45, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
    • To clarify, a Keep or No consensus result in this TC thread does not mean inappropriate content will remain on the site. The administration can and will remove any content that violates our Talk page policy regardless of the outcome, and that process may start prior to the conclusion of this vote. 1358 (Talk) 12:11, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
  3. Per above Rsand 30 (talk) 19:48, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
    • To be clear, I absolutely think the inappropriate comments should be removed, but I don't think we should also delete all of the pages. I think the voting history should be preserved (with inappropriate comments redacted), per the reasoning discussed above. Also I don't support deleting the entirety of Mister Star Wars, since the misogynistic comments are on the Miss Star Wars pages, so the only real issue with Mister Star Wars is annoying image maintenance (and even then, the galleries can be removed while preserving the vote count). Also the result pages only list the top five, so this would also erase every other page that was part of the vote. Basically, delete the misogyny, but keep the voting on the pages. Rsand 30 (talk) 13:09, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
  4. SorcererSupreme21 (talk) 20:04, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  5. Per XD. -ThrawnChiss7 (talk) 21:30, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  6. Per Omicron and Xd. While I do understand the reasoning of images marked for deletion, as I'm the main reason for that aspect currently, it is part of the historical record, cringy and all. I see no reason why the comments can't be hidden in a way like JediMasterMacaroni did here. - JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 22:44, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
    • The difference is that that content actually has a purpose whereas gross comments definitely do not. JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 14:21, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
    We can always redact the offensive comments. Rakhsh (talk) 23:02, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  7. I don't feel comfortable about purging historical records. We could perhaps redact offensive comments. But deleting them is akin to throwing out the baby with the bath water. Andykatib 23:18, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
    I was originally thinking of voting delete, but I think we should really own up to this. I volunteer to help redact offensive comments, but I think it speaks volumes to have these here, perhaps with a tag at the top saying that these archives have been heavily redacted due to the offensive nature of many of the comments, and that Wookieepedia no longer tolerates such conduct. MasterFredCommerce Guild(talk) (he/him) 02:15, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
    • Also, I would be ok considering the galleries as not part of the discussion and thus perfectly fine removing entirely, so as to make things easier for image uploaders. MasterFredCommerce Guild(talk) (he/him) 02:17, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
  8. After reviewing the discussion here and on Discord. Samonic Signatureicon (Talk) 09:59, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
  9. These archives are not exactly visible, or easy to stumble upon anyway, while they pose a certain historical value (there you can encounter the names of some gone-and-long-forgotten users, some genuinely witty remarks, etc.) Aruteous CIS roundel Holoterminal 19:13, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
  10. per Fred. first of all these pages are not easy to come across, but deleting them somewhat makes it seem we're trying to "hide the evidence", for a lack of better term atm. Admit that it was a messed up thing, move on, and be better going forward. BloodOfIrizi Sabine Starbird (talk) 22:47, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Comments

  • I'm probably going to abstain in this vote because while I definitely agree that this is not stuff we want to have in the Wookieepedia: namespace, it feels weird to be erasing stuff from the site. If they do get deleted, I might keep them up in a user subpage for on-site archival purposes that's easier to get to than the Wayback. JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 16:54, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
    • Heads up that if the decision is made to delete them, they'll need to go from the whole site and copying them onto a user subpage would be against that consensus. Although Wayback is less convenient, I ensured they were archived there. Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (she/her) 03:27, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
      • For one, can you point me to what policy supports that? It's definitely something I've seen done in the past, albeit for less problematic pages. And for another, I would certainly like to note that if done, it would be without the gross comments. JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 03:35, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
        • Sure thing! On Wookieepedia:Trash compactor#Result, "Unless there is a question of procedural irregularity, the TC result is final. Pages that have been deleted should not be recreated unless another vote is held to overturn the original decision." I think we've all turned a blind eye to prior times things are saved to subpages because of the nature of the content (like when we TC a list), overlooking that it's a form of recreating the page(s). That may be something to discuss further to clarify. I appreciate that you don't intend to archive the gross parts. Were you thinking something more like selecting comedic moments to save rather than the pages in their entirety? Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (she/her) 03:50, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
          • I hadn't fully thought it through, but perhaps something like that. Regardless of article content, I don't think that moving something to a subpage counts as recreation, so perhaps that's worth refining so that it won't be ambiguous. JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 01:01, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
          • Noting for the record that Immi and I continued this on Discord DMs. JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 13:37, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
  • Could we redact all the comments and keep the record of the votes? Rakhsh (talk) 21:17, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
    • Rule 4 of the Talk page policy outlines circumstances under which administrators can redact comments. Redacting every single vote would not be acceptable practice; it would have to be a case-by-case review. 1358 (Talk) 21:21, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Maybe we could instead redirect the archives to result pages? That way the content wouldn't be visible, but it could still be accessed in page history. 01miki10 Open comlink 21:31, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
    • The things on the Miss Star Wars pages shouldn't be available publicly at all in my opinion, so I would not support that. VergenceScatter (talk) 22:09, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  • "Existing policy" is not a valid reason to retain offensive, TOU-violating content that is only detrimental to Wookieepedia. Fandom TOU prohibits posting content that contains misogyny or sexism; the sexual objectification on the majority of the Miss Star Wars voting archives is sexist and misogynist. In local policy, if talk page policy does apply to Miss/Mister Star Wars voting archives (which are pages where users make comments without conversation rather than "pages on Wookieepedia where discussion between users takes place"), we voted that administrators can remove grossly derogatory content; many of those archive pages have comments that are grossly derogatory towards women and in some cases girls (sexualizing minors). This is not an attempt to circumvent policy—rather, removing the content would enforce it. (Imp also makes a point about the annoyance factor of those image galleries.) While I'm personally in support of deleting them entirely, if that's too scorched earth, I will volunteer to help heavily redact those pages. Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (she/her) (talk) 21:33, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
    • I have nothing against removing unacceptable content under rule 4 of the Talk page policy. However, the vast majority of the content on the pages proposed for deletion is completely fine and our Talk page policy does not allow for its removal. Additionally, what constitutes unacceptable content will probably require further discussion, possibly with Fandom input. 1358 (Talk) 21:43, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Per my comments on my vote above. Just hide the comments so you have to click "show" to view them. - JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 22:46, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  • I wanted to callout that the comments of concern and the subject in general disproportionately affect women/enbies than men. As far as I can tell, no women have voted to keep these pages. I think we need to acknowledge this and listen to those who are affected by these pages, especially since they are "fun"—having no impact on wider wookieepedia policy or pages. Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 12:52, 1 November 2022 (UTC)