Forums > Trash compactor archive > TC:Mathus' Story
This page is an archive of the Trash compactor discussion about the future of Wookieepedia's coverage of the topic(s) listed below, including whether or not to delete or redirect the relevant page(s). This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the relevant talk pages or in the Senate Hall forum rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was Delete. JangFett (Talk) 12:35, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
Mathus' Story (talk - history - links - logs)
This is not a standalone short story; rather this is simply a brief background included in a downloadable character folio add-on to the Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beginner Game. As such, this is functionally part of the Beginner Game and should be covered in that article. This also goes for "41-VEX's Story", "Lowhhrick's Story", "Oskara's Story", "Pash's Story", and "Sasha's Story", all of which are currently redlinks in {{FFGSWRPG}}. Of those, Sasha is also a download add-on, while the other four are physically included in the Beginner Game box; all are identical in presentation. —MJ— Council Chambers 06:20, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
Voting
Delete
- As nominator. Nothing worth merging as the game article should not be including plot summaries for these or treating them as standalone stories, and I don't think the title is likely to be entered into the search box.—MJ— Council Chambers 06:20, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- How about information such as Ao Var, where the only source reference currently available is the short stories? —GethralkinHyperwave 09:21, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- RPG sourcebooks are full of character biographies. I agree that it being a separate download doesn't lend anything to its notability. Menkooroo (talk) 06:24, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- Why wouldn't it? These are short stories just as the Tales of… stories are short stories deserving of their own articles. The fact that they are separate from the sourcebooks is also a key point. Each story has several paragraphs of information concerning the character that does not exist outside of the booklet that the story comes from. If these were part of the sourcebooks I would hedge, but they are printed separately as their own booklets. —GethralkinHyperwave 07:58, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- Especially since there are several short stories in sourcebooks that have their own articles, i.e. The Pit. So there isn't any reason why these short stories can't be allowed. —GethralkinHyperwave 08:10, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- They're not short stories. They're not in-universe prose. They're character biographies written by an omniscient narrator. They're analogous to entries in The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia. They belong in a "Sources" section, not an "Appearances" section --- short stories fall under the latter. Menkooroo (talk) 02:52, August 27, 2013 (UTC)
- Especially since there are several short stories in sourcebooks that have their own articles, i.e. The Pit. So there isn't any reason why these short stories can't be allowed. —GethralkinHyperwave 08:10, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
LOST-Malachi (talk) 06:32, August 26, 2013 (UTC)(Vote struck, reason: Per policy: User is banned -- JangFett (Talk) 21:59, September 9, 2013 (UTC))
- Why wouldn't it? These are short stories just as the Tales of… stories are short stories deserving of their own articles. The fact that they are separate from the sourcebooks is also a key point. Each story has several paragraphs of information concerning the character that does not exist outside of the booklet that the story comes from. If these were part of the sourcebooks I would hedge, but they are printed separately as their own booklets. —GethralkinHyperwave 07:58, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- Jinzler (talk) 07:36, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- Exiled Jedi
(Greetings) 18:27, August 26, 2013 (UTC) - This doesn't exactly qualify as a short story, and per MJ. Cade
Calrayn 18:46, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- Then neither does the 1-page character-titled short story from the GG1 sourcebook, "Artoo's Tale". —GethralkinHyperwave 18:52, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- No, that's an actual short story from what I can see. This is just a three-paragraph bio. Cade Calrayn 18:55, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- No, narrative is what defines a story, and these short stories have narrative. The biggest clue is that they are titled "Story" and they happen to be short. But the fact that they are stories is evidenced by the narrative. —GethralkinHyperwave 19:01, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- No, that's an actual short story from what I can see. This is just a three-paragraph bio. Cade
- Then neither does the 1-page character-titled short story from the GG1 sourcebook, "Artoo's Tale". —GethralkinHyperwave 18:52, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- I think some clarification in how Wookieepedia defines short stories would be good. Not sure if it's policy consensus material, though, but it may prevent future confusion for other editors. —GethralkinHyperwave 03:16, August 27, 2013 (UTC)
- Definitely. Corellian Premier
The Force will be with you always 21:52, August 27, 2013 (UTC) - 1358 (Talk) 20:44, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
- Supreme Emperor (talk) 03:49, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
- JangFett (Talk) 19:57, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
Redirect to Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beginner Game
Merge and redirect to Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beginner Game
Keep
The folios that include the biographies are sources of information concerning the characters not otherwise attainable, since no mention is made of the details found in the Stories is found in the Escape from Mos Shuuta and The Long Arm of the Hutt adventures—themselves, interweaving plots in the Beginner Game kit. The Beginner Game is a kit of several books and the PDFs are considered a part of it, but specifically, the information comes from each different 40-something-page book or 8-page folio bio. The kit is not a combined book that these separate biographies are a part of. Like TLAofH, the characters' Biographies in the PDF files are not in the boxed kit, either, but downloaded separately. —GethralkinHyperwave 06:36, August 26, 2013 (UTC)- I'm sorry, but this is an example of hyperinclusionism at its worst. By your reasoning, we should have a separate article for every single piece of paper in that box. No. Everything in the Beginner Game box, plus the downloadable stuff, is all part of the same product: the Beginner Game itself. I would lean toward even merging Escape from Mos Shuuta into the Beginner Game article since it is an integral part of the game, without which the Beginner Game is useless. Also note that we have only one article for the Star Wars: Invasion of Theed Adventure Game, which was the WotC version of the Beginner Game. —MJ— Holocomm 18:24, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- I guess I am not understanding because I am not seeing a difference. The Theed article has short stories listed on its page linked to the corresponding articles. Applied to Edge of the Empire Beginner Game, the two book and 6 booklets would be listed with links as far as I can reasoned here. Rorworr was not the main subject of the short story including him, as are the characters in the FFG boxed set. The Hasbro Short Story Collection is also a very good example of a set of short stories (necessarily short for their child audience) combined together in the encompassing publication, but each listed as separate articles. And "Artoo's Tale" is a classic 1-page short story that is titled in the same manner as the booklets in the FFG kit. —GethralkinHyperwave 18:49, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- As for differences between the Theed short stories, it looks like none of those short stories were released with the initial adventure game itself but were instead released in other materials or web enhancements at later times. Cade Calrayn 18:52, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, I can concede that point. I still am needing to know how short story is being defined here, because it seems almost arbitrary. Narrative is what defines a story, and it can be told in first, second and third person. So "Artoo's Tale" qualifies as narrative as does "Mathus' Story". —GethralkinHyperwave 19:05, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- The difference is that the Theed "short stories" are in fact not short stories, but separate, full-fledged adventures that are designed to extend the Adventure Game, but are not actually part of the Adventure Game. In terms of the EOTE Beginner Game, these are more analogous to The Long Arm of the Hutt, also a full-fledged adventure designed to extend the Beginner Game but which is not an integral part of it. "Mathus' Story", on the other hand, is a one page story telling of Mathus' background prior to "Escape from Mos Shuuta", and it is an integral part of the game, explaining how the characters came to be where they are at the start of that adventure. The Theed Adventure Game character folios have a one-paragraph introduction of where those characters come from; that's what Mathus' Story is most analogous to. It's an integral part of the game, not something separate that can stand on its own. As for the stories in the Hasbro collection, those have separate articles because they are each designed to stand on their own without needing the rest of the collection for support. And in regard to Artoo's Tale, that's a standalone story, not an integral part of a larger work, and the title similarity is merely a coincidence and of no relevance to this discussion. —MJ— Training Room 02:50, August 27, 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, that makes sense to me. The problem is that I did not have much to go as far as direction concerning how a short story is defined. And the titles, now that I put it into that context, are variants on the definition of "story"/"tale" being that the folio stories are the "so what's his story?", while Artoo's story (from your explanation) is more about "this is the story that Artoo is telling." Thank you for clearing that up. —GethralkinHyperwave 03:12, August 27, 2013 (UTC)
- The difference is that the Theed "short stories" are in fact not short stories, but separate, full-fledged adventures that are designed to extend the Adventure Game, but are not actually part of the Adventure Game. In terms of the EOTE Beginner Game, these are more analogous to The Long Arm of the Hutt, also a full-fledged adventure designed to extend the Beginner Game but which is not an integral part of it. "Mathus' Story", on the other hand, is a one page story telling of Mathus' background prior to "Escape from Mos Shuuta", and it is an integral part of the game, explaining how the characters came to be where they are at the start of that adventure. The Theed Adventure Game character folios have a one-paragraph introduction of where those characters come from; that's what Mathus' Story is most analogous to. It's an integral part of the game, not something separate that can stand on its own. As for the stories in the Hasbro collection, those have separate articles because they are each designed to stand on their own without needing the rest of the collection for support. And in regard to Artoo's Tale, that's a standalone story, not an integral part of a larger work, and the title similarity is merely a coincidence and of no relevance to this discussion. —MJ— Training Room 02:50, August 27, 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, I can concede that point. I still am needing to know how short story is being defined here, because it seems almost arbitrary. Narrative is what defines a story, and it can be told in first, second and third person. So "Artoo's Tale" qualifies as narrative as does "Mathus' Story". —GethralkinHyperwave 19:05, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- As for differences between the Theed short stories, it looks like none of those short stories were released with the initial adventure game itself but were instead released in other materials or web enhancements at later times. Cade
- I guess I am not understanding because I am not seeing a difference. The Theed article has short stories listed on its page linked to the corresponding articles. Applied to Edge of the Empire Beginner Game, the two book and 6 booklets would be listed with links as far as I can reasoned here. Rorworr was not the main subject of the short story including him, as are the characters in the FFG boxed set. The Hasbro Short Story Collection is also a very good example of a set of short stories (necessarily short for their child audience) combined together in the encompassing publication, but each listed as separate articles. And "Artoo's Tale" is a classic 1-page short story that is titled in the same manner as the booklets in the FFG kit. —GethralkinHyperwave 18:49, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but this is an example of hyperinclusionism at its worst. By your reasoning, we should have a separate article for every single piece of paper in that box. No. Everything in the Beginner Game box, plus the downloadable stuff, is all part of the same product: the Beginner Game itself. I would lean toward even merging Escape from Mos Shuuta into the Beginner Game article since it is an integral part of the game, without which the Beginner Game is useless. Also note that we have only one article for the Star Wars: Invasion of Theed Adventure Game, which was the WotC version of the Beginner Game. —MJ— Holocomm 18:24, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
Discussion
- As a precedent, consider that We Don't Do Weddings: The Band's Tale article is not lumped together with all the other short story articles, and all merged into the Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina book article. —GethralkinHyperwave 06:40, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- In other words, these are all vignettes of the Beginner Game, just as the Tales are a compilation of vignettes (as described in the "We Don't Do Weddings" article:
—GethralkinHyperwave 07:33, August 26, 2013 (UTC)vi·gnette vinˈyet noun 1. a brief evocative description, account, or episode.
- "The Pit" — Galaxy Guide 5: Return of the Jedi
- "Mathus' Story" — Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beginner Game
- Comparatively, there is little difference here. Both are short. Both are from RPG source material. Both have been given articles. We aren't talking about a generic player character with an ambiguous bio, either. The characters are fully fleshed out in each of their biographies and the stories have plots. —GethralkinHyperwave 08:19, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- There is in fact a critical difference: "The Pit" and the Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina stuff are intended as standalone short stories. These are not; rather, they are integral parts of, and intended to be use in conjunction with the rest of the materials in, the Beginner Game. Therefore, they should not have their own article.
Finally, since I brought up the Star Wars: Invasion of Theed Adventure Game above, let me point out one of the characters from that game: Rorworr (Naboo). First, note that the article is an FA. Second, note that the article simply lists the game itself as an appearance, and uses references that link to the game article and describe in plain text what specific portion of the game the information comes from. If it had been warranted to create separate articles for each character sheet, adventure, and everything else, then that would have been requested during the FAN review. It obviously wasn't, therefore articles like this are not needed. Just cite everything to the game itself and be done with it. —MJ— Holocomm 18:24, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- Hmm. So what about instances like Ao Var that are soley in the short story? Since that is a unique reference not used elsewhere in the boxed kit, wouldn't there need to be something that points specifically to that as a reference. It would be different if everything in the kit were one book, but there are three books and six booklets. Not trying to argue, just trying to understand. —GethralkinHyperwave 18:28, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- In that case, simply list the Beginner Game itself as the appearance (not source, in line with how the WotC version is treated), and use references like "Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beginner Game, Pash's character folio". Just because the individual pieces of the game don't have articles doesn't mean that you can't reference them individually. —MJ— War Room 18:45, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- I have run into issues trying to display this as a referenced source without an article (the whole reason why I brought this up in the first place). So, I want to clarify what has been stated above and below. Let's say that I have an EfMS-related article that draws information from "Pash' Story." I do not use "Pash's Story" as the source because it is a folio element of the Beginner Game. I do, however, use the following convention:
If this is the proper format I am expected to use for this, I need to know. I would like for Menkooroo or MJ to confirm this please. Thank you. —GethralkinHyperwave 20:39, August 31, 2013 (UTC)Appearances__________________________________________________________
* "Escape from Mos Shuuta" — Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beginner Game
Sources_______________________________________________________________
* Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beginner Game, Pash's character folio- Not quite. Except for some online stuff, items generally should not be listed under Sources unless they have a unique standalone article. In this case, no Sources section should be used at all, and "Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beginner Game, Pash's character folio" should be used solely as an inline reference for the material it covers. —MJ— Holocomm 00:03, September 2, 2013 (UTC)
- I have run into issues trying to display this as a referenced source without an article (the whole reason why I brought this up in the first place). So, I want to clarify what has been stated above and below. Let's say that I have an EfMS-related article that draws information from "Pash' Story." I do not use "Pash's Story" as the source because it is a folio element of the Beginner Game. I do, however, use the following convention:
- In that case, simply list the Beginner Game itself as the appearance (not source, in line with how the WotC version is treated), and use references like "Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beginner Game, Pash's character folio". Just because the individual pieces of the game don't have articles doesn't mean that you can't reference them individually. —MJ— War Room 18:45, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- Hmm. So what about instances like Ao Var that are soley in the short story? Since that is a unique reference not used elsewhere in the boxed kit, wouldn't there need to be something that points specifically to that as a reference. It would be different if everything in the kit were one book, but there are three books and six booklets. Not trying to argue, just trying to understand. —GethralkinHyperwave 18:28, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- There is in fact a critical difference: "The Pit" and the Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina stuff are intended as standalone short stories. These are not; rather, they are integral parts of, and intended to be use in conjunction with the rest of the materials in, the Beginner Game. Therefore, they should not have their own article.
- I took a screenshot of the story in question and uploaded it (it can also be found at the download link MJ posted at the top of this forum). MJ, feel free to delete the image after this TC is finished.
As you can see, it's not an in-universe short story that belongs in an "Appearances" section; it's an encyclopedia entry that would go in a "Sources" section. So the comparison with the Mos Eisley short stories is a case of apples and oranges. The Heir to the Empire Sourcebook included similar encyclopedia-style entries on Thrawn, Pellaeon, Luke, Leia, Mara, Lt. Page, etc, etc. It's not unique; it's just text in a book. Menkooroo (talk) 03:16, August 27, 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you for the comparison. Keep in mind, though, that the confusion arose from FFG's titling their entry in such a way to appear standalone. —GethralkinHyperwave 03:21, August 27, 2013 (UTC)