Forum:TC:Battles of Naboo

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This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or, if the page was deleted, in the Senate Hall rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was Merge, redirect, and move three proposed battle articles to one Battle of Naboo article. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 00:09, May 1, 2014 (UTC)

Battles of Naboo

So, the Battle of Naboo—the closing scene of Episode I—is currently broken up into the Naboo Space Battle, the Battle of the Great Grass Plains, and the Second Battle of Theed. I find this rather ridiculous, as it's all one battle—the closing battle of the Invasion of Naboo. As far as I can see, we don't have any other set of articles that treat a battle or invasion like this; the Battle of Endor isn't split into articles for the mission to the moon and the space battle around the Death Star, and the separation of the Duel on Death Star II (another questionable name) is questionable.

While the Great Grass Plains and the Assault on Theed (per Secrets of Naboo) have been referred to by those canon names, they're all part of the same overarching battle; they should be redirected to the Battle of Naboo article, bolded in the intro, and used as section headings. I've been unable to find a source for the name "Naboo Space Battle" or any of the titles currently listed on Second Battle of Theed.

So, here are a list of sources that refer to the three battles as one Battle of Naboo:

  • The New Essential Guide to Characters, Anakin: "... and soon thereafter Anakin flew a starfighter in the Battle of Naboo, thus earning the right to be trained...."
  • The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels includes diagrams and a summary of the Battle of Naboo, detailing the Theed, Plains, and space battles and referring to them as all one battle.
  • The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels's N-1 Starfighter entry has a quote from Anakin captioned as "Anakin Skywalker, in an N1, during the Battle of Naboo"
  • The Essential Reader's Companion, on the Episode I Journals series: "The journals provide firsthand accounts of the events surrounding the Battle of Naboo, by those who witnessed it."
  • The Essential Guide to Warfare: "At the Battle of Naboo, Anakin Skywalker's destruction of the orbiting Droid Control Ship eliminated the droid army's central computer, forcing the army into hibernation mode."
  • Inside the Worlds of Star Wars: Episode I: "Before the Battle of Naboo, a sentry spies the Naboo Head of Security, Captain Panaka, and a group of volunteers crossing the Great Grass Plains from Theed."
  • Fact Files:
    • The Official Star Wars Fact File 108: "That night, the key players in the Battle of Naboo, along with Palpatine and the visiting Jedi dignitaries..."
    • The Official Star Wars Fact File 133 discusses "Plans and strategies behind the Battle of Naboo", giving summaries and diagrams of both the Great Grass Plains and space battles. A later section on Naboo Guards discusses how they "made an effective resistance movement that tied up many of the occupying Trade Federation forces prior to the Battle of Naboo."
    • The Official Star Wars Fact File 137, Captain Tarpals: "During the Battle of Naboo, Captain Tarpals led a charge against the advancing Trade Federation battle droids."
    • The New Essential Guide to Characters, Ric Olie: "During the Battle of Naboo, Ric Olie and his pilots knew the Trade Federation's Droid Control Ship outgunned them. Despite the odds, they fought on for the sake of their homeworld."
  • And a lot of CSWE entries:
    • The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Vol. I ("Amidala, Padme"): "During the Battle of Naboo, Amidala infiltrated her own palace and forced Neimoidian Viceroy Nute Gunray to end the occupation."
    • The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Vol. I ("battle droid, Trade Federation"): "This new generation of battle droids could operate independently of a central control system, giving them much more operational independence while avoiding a singular weakness in command like the one exploited at the Battle of Naboo."
    • The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Vol. I ("battle wagon, Gungan"): "During the Battle of Naboo, General Jar Jar Binks accidentally opened the cargo ramp of a fully loaded battle wagon, spilling huge Gungan boomers onto the battlefield."
    • The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Vol. I ("Binks, Jar Jar"): A picture of Jar Jar at the Great Grass Plains is captioned " Jar Jar Binks at the Battle of Naboo."
    • The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Vol. I ("comlight"): "Captain Panaka used one to communicate with Queen Amidala when retaking the royal palace at Theed during the Battle of Naboo."
    • The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Vol. I ("comm slave satellites"): "During the Battle of Naboo, the Trade Federation utilized several comm slave satellites to focus signals sent from the Droid Control Ship to bases on the far side of the planet."
    • The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Vol. I ("Dallows, Rhys"): "A cocky Naboo pilot at the time of the Trade Federation invasion of his planet, he flew an N-l starfighter as Bravo Ten during the Battle of Naboo."
    • The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Vol. I ("Dolphe, Corporal Porro"): "He flew Bravo Two during the Battle of Naboo."
    • The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Vol. I ("farseein"): "During the Battle of Naboo, Gungan soldiers sat atop huge statue heads to scan the Great Grass Plains using farseeins."
    • The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Vol. I ("Globe of Peace"): "In the aftermath of the Battle of Naboo, Queen Amidala presented the Globe to Boss Nass in a gesture symbolizing a renewed peace between their peoples."
    • The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Vol. I ("Gungan Grand Army"): "The Grand Army was ordered into battle by Boss Nass as part of Queen Amidala's plans to overthrow the Trade Federation blockade of Naboo, in what became part of the Battle of Naboo. [...] "... before it was mobilized for the Battle of Naboo."
    • The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Vol. II ("How, Tey"): "He assigned Tey How to the communications station on the control ship, where she was killed during the Battle of Naboo."
    • The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Vol. II ("N-1 starfighter"): "During the Battle of Naboo, fearless pilot Ric Olie led Bravo Squadron's N-1 fighters against swarms of Trade Federation droid starfighters."
    • The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Vol. II ("Olie, Ric"): "At the Battle of Naboo, Olie led a small band of freedom fighters against the seemingly insurmountable might of the Trade Federation Droid Control Ship."
    • The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Vol. III ("R2-D2"): "He served as onboard astromech to Anakin Skywalker, a young rookie pilot who, despite not being authorized to do so, flew an N-l starfighter into the Battle of Naboo and destroyed the Droid Control Ship orchestrating the occupation of the planet."
    • The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Vol. III ("Skywalker, Anakin"): "Anakin was remanded to Qui-Gon's care and followed the Jedi to Naboo, where he found himself piloting an N-l starfighter during the Battle of Naboo."
    • The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Vol. III ("Trade Federation"): "The blockade was broken during the Battle of Naboo, ..."
    • The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Vol. III ("Wendlk, Lieutenant Arven"): "A male member of Bravo Flight who flew as Bravo Three during the Battle of Naboo."

So, here's what I'm suggesting, for those of you who tl;dr:

  1. Move the Battle of Naboo article to Battle of Naboo (disambiguation).
  2. Merge the Naboo Space Battle, Battle of the Great Grass Plains, and Second Battle of Theed into one Battle of Naboo article.

Individual engagements

Merge, redirect, and move to Battle of Naboo

  1. Per the reasons I outline above. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 16:27, April 11, 2014 (UTC)
  2. Overwhelming evidence works for me. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 06:34, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
  3. Per the reasoning I heard last night. Supreme Emperor (talk) 11:04, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
  4. CC7567 (talk) 14:59, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
  5. To save confusion per the discussion below, you may want to rename this option to "Merge and redirect," lest others think the history will be lost. I see what you're getting at, and it's long past time to do it (to this, and other multi-part battle articles), but it may make things go down smoother. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 15:31, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
  6. Per the above JangFett (Talk) 16:52, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
  7. [[Skirmish in Theed Palace Corridor, Floor Three]] 1358 (Talk) 17:37, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
    Clone Commander Lee Talk 17:44, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
  8. Trip391 (talk) 19:32, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
  9. —Silly Dan (talk) 01:22, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
  10. As long as the Battle of Naboo has separate sections devoted to each of the three events. 501st dogma(talk) 11:32, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
  11. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 20:52, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
  12. The Battle of Waterloo article finally convinced me. Massive battle, fought on many fronts by different factions tied for the same ultimate purpose, the defeat of Napoleon the Trade Federation, on one single day. Arrr. Winterz (talk) 21:22, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
  13. Grassy Plains was a distraction for the Theed assault, which was to free the starfighters for the space battle to end both the ground battles. Simple. - Sir Cavalier of OneFarStar(Squadron channel) 22:51, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
  14. Green Tentacle (Talk) 12:26, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
  15. Exiled Jedi Oldrepublic crest (Greetings) 16:05, April 19, 2014 (UTC)
  16. For consistency with other battle articles. Ayrehead02 (talk) 20:39, April 21, 2014 (UTC)

Keep

  1. "Battle for Naboo" in most of those cases could refer to the overarching invasion, so keep the individual engagements. Corellian PremierJedi symbolThe Force will be with you always 14:58, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
    • Not really. You're particularly ignoring the bolded items in the list above, where "Battle of Naboo" is specifically referring to the battle that ends TPM. Why should we treat this battle any differently from other battles? The Battle of Yuuzhan'tar and the Battle of Endor aren't broken into land & space battles? There's also the Battle of Coruscant and the Sacking of Coruscant, to name a few. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 15:18, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
  2. Uh, for now I'm voting against. Yeah, some sources refer to all three with one name, but some other sources only detail the specific engagements. In fact, it seems like the closer the look a source is taking, the more likely it is to refer to them separately, while the big sources that cover a lot of subject matter tend to condense it, likely because they aren't a giant infinite digital source. (Hell, one of your bolded sources lists the Blockade as being broken by the battle, but the blockade was broken during the invasion when the queen escaped, and then later when the TF decided there just wasn't anything to blockade. The Blockade ended days or weeks before the start of what you plan to refer to as the Battle of Naboo.) Using the big, mentioned-in-passing sources with limited space as a model for how to operate a wiki seems kinda...backwards. All three operations are probably going to be more or less handled completely separate in the article and giant infobox anyway, all this really does is cut down a few KBs in redundant sources and make QAing harder. SinisterSamurai (talk) 07:02, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
  3. I have to agree in full with SinSam. The sources that refer to it as one battle are generalizing (with a slight emphasis on the source that SinSam mentions about the breaking of the blockade). The manners in which the battles interact notwithstanding, these are functionally three separate engagements and are treated as such by the sources that examine them in detail, just like we ought to. They deserve to be discussed in their own separate articles, not to mention that I can't even imagine how the infobox in a combined article would work or if it would even be useful with everything lumped together.
    Master JonathanCouncil Chambers
    07:41 UTC ThuApril 17, 2014
    • It would work like the Battle of Endor infobox, exactly like it's supposed to. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 20:38, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
  4. After taking another look at the subject, I have to vote against it. The Battle of Naboo is more like a battle consisting of many separate battles like this [1]. Clone Commander Lee Talk 10:57, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
    • Except it's not, Lee. These are three simultaneous engagements that are intricately related and are all occurring on/above the same planet. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 20:35, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
  5. KEJ (talk) 20:08, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
  6. Hitler served in WWI. Led in WWII, which was cause in part due to economic conditions from WWI, they should be merged... Manoof (talk) 13:04, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

  • Is there any reason you're not considering merging and leaving the edit history and redirects? "Battle of the Great Grassy Plains" is a canonical name that needs to be kept as a redirect anyway, "Naboo Space Battle" is at least a plausible search term someone might type in, and all three articles have eight years worth of edit history. Battle of the Grassy Plains is even an FFA. —Silly Dan (talk) 13:39, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
    • That is what I'm suggesting - we merge them and leave the names as redirects, and the finished article will be located at "Battle of Naboo". Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 13:54, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
    • Ah, thanks for the clarification. —Silly Dan (talk) 01:22, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
  • So, maybe I missed this, but what is the precedent we're establishing, here? I'm just curious where the demarcation is, why we would do this but stop short of merging all the battle articles into a single clone-wars article or galactic civil war article, or just squeezing the whole wiki into GALACTIC HISTORY. You clearly mention that some parts of the battle ARE in fact referred to by these other canon names by certain sources, but we're merging the articles anyway, so that's not the line. Where, between what you are proposing and the hyperbole is the line actually being drawn? SinisterSamurai (talk) 06:45, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
  • Well, since the question of scale and criteria was ignored, are we sure we can't have a Battle of Naboo page with a bunch of "click here for main article" links? SinisterSamurai (talk) 20:59, April 18, 2014 (UTC)