Forum:SH:Template:Delete

This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments or questions on this topic should be made in a new Senate Hall page rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. JocastaBot (talk) 15:24, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

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A few months ago, it's been brought up on Discord that the current iteration of the {{Delete}} template—in particular, the use of the term "pathetic" in describing pages tagged with the template—can be a bit off-putting to newcomers. I was reminded of this hitherto forgotten issue by an old CT, where I find myself very much agreeing with former admin Graestan being sick of seeing Darth Malak's face "every time I am feeling vindictive and want to delete something." With that in mind, we have every reason to change the current template:

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I thus present my personal proposal, using a quote by OOM-9 (ongoing FA Redux, pls review!) from Star Wars: Episode I The Phantom Menace (which y'all should watch if you haven't already). Only the image and caption have been changed.

I just think "Open fire!" is short, snappy, simple, and judgement-free. Plus, it fits thematically with {{Holdon}} since both template images would involve ray shields, but I guess that's kinda beside the point. Anyway, keep in mind that the purpose of the template is just to tag pages for deletion by admins, and pages with the template are listed on Category:Candidates for speedy deletion (if you include "CSD" in the edit summary, use {{CSD}} in place of {{Delete}}, or otherwise have "CSD" included in the revision diff, the page will also be automatically reported in the #admin-help channel on our Discord server, so please refrain from using "CSD" in the Discussion section below 😜).

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Aaand that's basically it from me. What do you think? Should the template be changed, and if so, to what? It doesn't necessarily have to be my design as presented, so feel free to come up with alternatives! OOM 224 14:52, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

• While I agree to an extent that "pathetic" is a bit of a strong word to a well-intentioned newcomer's edits, I'm not sure if "Open fire" is really that much better in that context. I'd suggest either keeping it as it is (as "pathetic" is part of the original quote), or change it to something like, idk, "Execute Order 66"? That's just my suggestions. Timjer (talk) 15:01, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
• I don't agree that the pathetic may offend anyone or be off-putting, nor do I think that the template should be changed since it's such a minor thing; however, I offer an alternative. It's not that good, but here's a quote from Thrawn Ascendancy: Lesser Evil for your consideration. "Would you have preferred I ordered the Whetstone to bombard the planet from space?" (remove the part in bold, change it into "the page") "Why not?" — I recommend this since Nakirre says "why not," which could be referring to why the user is putting the CSD notice. Samonic ^(Talk) 15:03, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Which character says the quote? Editoronthewiki (talk) 15:15, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
    • The quotes are spoken by first the Grysk operative Jixtus and the why not is provided by the leader of the government of the Kilji Illumine, Generalirius Nakirre. Samonic ^(Talk) 16:13, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
  • I think it would be better if the quote was from a well-known source like a film or TV episode. JediMasterMacaroni^(Talk) 17:10, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
    • I understand that; it wouldn't hurt to promote Lesser Evil a bit, though. :P Samonic ^(Talk) 18:56, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
• I think newcomers most often see the template when they've made an error on uploading an image–such as forgetting the licensing. So this might be a tall-order but I'd like it to somehow be inviting to correct the issue. (Maybe we can workshop a different template to use in that instance?) NBDani (they/them)^{Yeager's Repairs} 15:05, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Good point. That could certainly be done in the template message. OOM 224 16:35, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
• Considering that this is a template for speedy deletion, I've never had a problem with this quote, even when I was a new editor. I think it's a good quote for a template only intended for pages that are supposed to be deleted without going through the TC process. Additionally, while I am not opposed to changing the quote to something else if my opinion is in the minority, I dislike "Open fire!" as an alternative because I don't think it as relevant to the text as the current quote. SorcererSupreme21 (talk) 17:38, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
  • I also find it amusing that IRL OOM suggests a quote from IU OOM. That gave me a good chuckle. SorcererSupreme21 (talk) 17:40, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
• I agree with Sorcerer that, given the template's purpose, I don't find the current quote to be insulting. I do think we could change the picture to the actual event being referenced if people are sick of looking at Malak's face. As regards the template popping up in response to image uploading errors, we could make a special version of the template just for that, containing instructions on how to save the file from speedy deletion for the guidance of new editors. SilverSunbird (talk) 17:55, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Good point. A version of the template directed at files with missing upload information would indeed be helpful and should be relatively straightforward to implement. OOM 224 17:39, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
• I just want to say for the people saying newcomers will never see this, I still think it's important to thnink about the events where newcomers make a C*Dable page and return to look at it being called "pathetic." NBDani (they/them)^{Yeager's Repairs} 18:30, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
  • It's a Sith's quote. The Sith aren't polite. Samonic ^(Talk) 18:54, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
    • The Sith may not be, but Wookieepedia should be. Imperators II^(Talk) 21:08, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
• I have witnessed on multiple occasions dissatisfaction with the current quote of the template on newcomers' part, and to be very blunt, I do not care at all for all the comments here about how it doesn't bother established users - you're not exactly the best arbiters of what new editors find hostile, are you now? I find OOM's suggestion to be a perfect, well-thought replacement. For bonus points, it's also from a source (TPM) that's arguably even more widely known than that of the current quote (KOTOR) - so, you know, better chances of a new editor seeing it and going "ah, I see, it's a Star Wars reference that I'm aware of" instead of "ugh, what's with the hostile text and where is it even from?". Imperators II^(Talk) 21:08, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
• All for the changes. The Wook, in order to continue to thrive, needs to draw in new editors by being a welcoming community. Even the smallest of changes we can do to make that happen are well worth it—especially when it costs us nothing in terms of lessening quality. A change like this is simply cosmetic, but yet could be the difference whether who'd made a well-intentioned edit decides they want to try editing again after their mistaken article creation. Personally, I wasn't bothered by it when I joined. At the same time, I don't think it's a new editor's responsibility to come here with skin as thick as a bantha. What if someone could come here and not have to armor up against hostility (in any way)? It's an ideal worth working toward.—spookywilloww^talk 21:16, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
• Definitely support this. I'd also like to see on the documentation perhaps something around Dani's point - if information is missing, a message to the user on WHY the page is being deleted and an offer on help. Image missing licensing information shouldn't automatically be deleted imo - we should be working with the uploader where possible to ensure that information is populated. The use of the reason in this template should be mandatory as well, and established users should explain the reason sufficiently and especially on pages created by new users. Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 01:37, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
• Per Imp; just because we don't find it problematic doesn't mean new editors don't, and this template has been a repeatedly expressed concern at this point. It should certainly be changed. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 17:41, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Alternative

While I believe that the current quote is still a good one for a template about speedy deletion, I can see how the language and relative obscurity of the quote and its source can leave less Star Wars–informed readers confused. Last year, I changed the quote used on a template on a wiki I administer after a new user reacted to it in a way well explained in this thread. That said, while I'm still not a fan of "Open fire!" as an alternative, I can see where the appeal lies and thus suggest Grand Moff Tarkin's infamous line "You may fire when ready." as an alternative. I think of its potential use as less like hostile drones about "open fire" (i.e. delete) a CSD'd page and more like Imperials (i.e. wiki staff (heh)) about to engage it, if that makes sense. Plus, I think it also has better synergy with {{Holdon}}, and if we're arguing for the addition of quotes from more well-known sources, what better than the original? SorcererSupreme21 (talk) 22:07, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

• This is the exact quote I thought of when I first saw this thread, though I think a picture of the Death Star firing would be even better Commander Code-8 ^{Hello There!} 04:52, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Here is an alternative with the requested image. I have to say, I like the imagery of the Death Star destroying a CSD'd article. SorcererSupreme21 (talk) 05:38, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

• Okay, that one I can get behind. SilverSunbird (talk) 05:39, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
• I also agree, this seems like a very decent alternative if we're going to change it. Timjer (talk) 09:12, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
• This is a brilliant alternative. The quote is from the movies and shows the Death Star superlaser in action. I myself do find the current template needlessly harsh; we don't want to scare newcomers away. You don't have to be crazy to hang out with me. I'll train you. –Nightlily
• I also have to agree that the Death Star proposal is an even better one than the Open Fire one for the purposes of this particular template. Imperators II^(Talk) 15:43, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
• I think this is much better than our current quote: it is more polite, and it is less obscure. -ThrawnChiss7 (talk) 16:59, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
• Indeed. JediMasterMacaroni^(Talk) 17:07, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
• Nod, this is good. I had considered this, but thought we could use a prequel quote instead. OOM 224 17:37, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
• I like this quote, but I actually prefer the Tarkin image to the Death Star one. His scowling visage simultaneously is somehow more intimidating than a firing superlaser, and also humanizes the process a bit. (Plus it's technically more relevant to the quote than a firing that's already in action.) Asithol (talk) 22:11, 10 November 2022 (UTC)