Forum:CT:Translation, Articles titles tweak

This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made in the Senate Hall or new Consensus track pages rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record.
The result of the debate was support, and format by option 2, adaptation language. OOM 224 (he/him/they) 21:58, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

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The purpose of this CT is to provide extra clarification on a point of contention regarding the recent Forum:CT:Translation, Articles titles, since editors have been debating if we should host articles of (non-English) media that are adaptation of other works under their original (non-English) title or under the English title (with a disambiguation), which is known to us since the media being adapted has a title known to us in English and others languages (see example provided in the policy proposal).

Vote 1 is about whether or not to consider the addition of this new rule, with a formatting poll determined by vote 2.

Vote 1: New rule

To be added right under the rule "For works published exclusively in a language other than English [...]", in the Real-world publications section of the Naming policy:

• Furthermore, for a work published exclusively in a language other than English and that is the adaptation of another work with known titles both in English and in that other language, use the title in <result of formatting poll>

Support

1. NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 11:56, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
2. NBDani (they/them)^{Yeager's Repairs} 12:02, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
3. OOM 224 (he/him/they) 12:32, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
4. 01miki10 ^{Open comlink} 12:57, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
5. Imperators II^(Talk) 13:07, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
6. Cade Calrayn 14:43, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
7. Ayrehead02 (talk) 15:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
8. —spookywilloww^talk 00:03, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
9. `CometSmudge (talk) 23:12, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
10. Tommy-Macaroni (he/they) 10:21, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
11. — Commandant Bhatoa (talk) 11:02, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Vote 2: Allow plurality for formatting poll

This vote purpose is to determine that we accept the result of the formatting poll, and will accept the option that receives the most votes as the successful option, instead of following standard procedure currently set by Wookieepedia:Consensus. If a consensus of opposition or no consensus could be reached for vote 2, then vote 1 will be rendered null.

Support

1. NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 11:56, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
2. I side with Nano. NBDani (they/them)^{Yeager's Repairs} 12:02, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
3. OOM 224 (he/him/they) 12:32, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
4. 01miki10 ^{Open comlink} 12:57, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
5. Imperators II^(Talk) 13:07, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
6. Cade Calrayn 14:02, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
7. Ayrehead02 (talk) 15:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
8. CometSmudge (talk) 23:12, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
9. —spookywilloww^talk 04:05, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
10. Tommy-Macaroni (he/they) 10:21, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
11. — Commandant Bhatoa (talk) 11:02, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Formatting poll

English, with a parenthetical disambiguation including both the language and the media type (example: The Rise of Skywalker (French junior novel), instead of L'ascension de Skywalker).

OR

the language of the adaptation (example: L'ascension de Skywalker instead of The Rise of Skywalker (French junior novel)).

Option 1: English and disambiguation

1. NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 11:56, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Unless the title is something other than the adapted media, it’s doing a disservice to our readers to use the native title. Cade Calrayn 14:02, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Ayrehead02 (talk) 15:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
4. It's much clearer to readers what it actually is by using the English translation. In the case of L'ascension de Skywalker, it's pretty easy to make an educated guess as to what it is, but it won't always be like that. I also think it's reasonable to say that two works with the same title will be translated the same way. CometSmudge (talk) 23:12, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
5. — Commandant Bhatoa (talk) 11:02, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Option 2: Adaptation language

1. I just think we need to be consistent in this area. We shouldn't be translating works no matter how obvious they are. NBDani (they/them)^{Yeager's Repairs} 12:01, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
   • If consistency was our concern, then we wouldn’t have an exception clause allowing the author to give us a translation of the title. The naming of the movie should fall under the official source exception. Cade Calrayn 17:55, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
2. 100% OOM 224 (he/him/they) 12:31, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
3. 01miki10 ^{Open comlink} 12:57, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Good point. Imperators II^(Talk) 13:07, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
5. Fan26 (Talk) 16:01, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
6. —spookywilloww^talk 00:03, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
7. Tommy-Macaroni (he/they) 10:21, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

• Commenting my vote, but I disagree with Dani, consistency here would be to follow the spirit and word of the previous policy: "unless an official source [...] provided an English version of that title, use the title in the original language", here those works are using the same title of the work they adapt, it's a syllogism: 1) we know the title of work A in English and in other languages 2) work B is an foreign language adaption of work A under the same title in that language 3) therefore, we know the official English version of that title for work B to be the title of work A in English. Not translation on our part is involved at all. NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 14:49, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Indeed. The official French title of The Rise of Skywalker movie is literally L'ascension de Skywalker, so having an adaptation of the movie at that title doesn't sit right with me at all. Also, any novelization of the films that were published in other languages were also published at their native titles, so Star Wars: The Force Awakens (novelization) was literally published as "Star Wars: Le Réveil de la Force" just like the movie was. We should treat The Force Awakens (French junior novel) and the others just the same. Cade Calrayn 16:20, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
• I wonder if a 3rd option for formatting should be considered. Something like: L'ascension de Skywalker (Rise of Skywalker junior novel) while it is more wordy but it would provide both the original name and a basic description of the work - ThePedantry (talk) 20:36, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Not exactly a 3rd option rather than an addendum to option 2, which Cade also suggested a few days ago. But I rather introduce that in a quick vote if this one conclude with option 2 being preferred. Might also need an update to the following "Disambiguation" section. NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 19:03, 7 December 2024 (UTC)