Forum:CT:Image vote for Breast

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The result of the debate was: proposal to change the main image on breast overwhelmingly defeated. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 23:51, July 6, 2011 (UTC)

I was browsing the wiki, and came upon the page Breast. When I saw the image, I was appalled that we would put an image such as that on a wiki that caters to a wide range of audiences, including teenagers and impressionable young children. This vote is to change the image, from its current, provocative one of a nude sleeping Aayla Secura to a much less prvocative, equally (if not more) informative main image of the Selonian page. It demonstrates a detailed enough female breast, as well as reverse sexually dimorphed male version. Also, as the current image is from Visions, whose canonocity is disputed, the Selonian image is not in dispute as to its canonocity. Vote support if you believe the image should be changed to the Selonian image, oppose if you believe the image of Secura is satisfactory, and neutral if you cannot yet decide.

Support

  1. The CHILDREN'S television series Star Wars: The Clone Wars (TV series) features Secura in a number of its episodes. It is shockingly easy to find this page from hers. Is this something we wish to show children? Something George Lucas would approve of? Is it truly necessary to have an image at all? If we allow this image, what's next? Genitals? Reproduction? Pornography?Gnost-Dural | Hands off the holocrons, THEY'RE MINE!! 23:33, June 29, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

  1. [Redacted by administration] Darth Trayus(Trayus Academy) 23:40, June 29, 2011 (UTC)
  2. Strongly oppose. Per the arguements on the talk page and Trayus. Korsa3 23:46, June 29, 2011 (UTC)
  3. Strongly oppose. We put the image that best represents the subject in canon. The current one does that. We will document everything that is in Star Wars canon, regardless of whether people choose to take an issue with that particular piece of canon (just look at TCW), that's what we do. Also, per talk page people, and Wookieepedia is not censored, etc. Grunny (talk) 23:52, June 29, 2011 (UTC)
  4. 1, WP:NOT 2.7. [Redacted by administration] -- Darth Culator (Talk) 23:53, June 29, 2011 (UTC)
  5. WP:NOTCENSORED (yes, there is a shortcut to that policy) and I will say no more. Master Jonathan — Jedi Council Chambers Wednesday, June 29, 2011, 23:58 UTC
  6. not sure why you're still tilting at this particular windmill, but there's no reason to remove the picture. Get over it. <-Omicron(Leave a message at the BEEP!) 01:00, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
  7. [Redacted by administration] JangFett (Talk) 01:07, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
  8. [Redacted by administration] IFYLOFD (Floyd's crib) 01:11, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
  9. Per Grunny and Trayus and everyone else. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 01:18, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
  10. Per above! Kilson(Let's have a chat) 01:19, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
  11. Since I can't just delete this thread as nonsense. Grand Moff Tranner Imperial Department of Military Research (Comlink) 01:40, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
  12. George Lucas approved Ahsoka Tano. His moral judgment is unfit for consideration here. Karohalva 01:45, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
  13. [Redacted by administration] Toprawa and Ralltiir 04:00, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
  14. As an artist and owner of items similar to the offending objects... I honestly see absolutely nothing wrong with the image. In fact, I like the image. It is a gorgeous image, it is done tastefully, and the style is nice. And the image illustrates the article perfectly. So, what's the problem? Are you going to next go into art museums and demand that they cover up all the nudes there? Trak Nar Ramble on 04:11, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
  15. [Redacted by administration] OLIOSTER (talk) 04:21, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
  16. Per Trayus, Grunny, and others above, plus my previous arguments in various discussions. Yes, if we have canonical sources for genitalia, reproduction, we should have those articles with best possible images too. We already have pornography so that's not in this debate. –Tm_T (Talk) 04:58, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
  17. [Redacted by administration]—Tommy 9281 Thursday, June 30, 2011, 05:03 UTC
  18. Per above. Also ... c'mon! I see more explicit material than that just by picking up a British tabloid! - Cavalier OneFarStar(Squadron channel) 07:40, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
  19. Yeah... 1358 (Talk) 08:33, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
  20. It has been settled three times on the talk page that the image must remain.—TK-999 Era-imp(Rise of the Empire) 09:33, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
  21. [Redacted by administration] DD97Which bear is best? 13:21, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
  22. No censorship. Gulomi Jomesh 15:13, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
  23. Agreed. Corellian PremierRobotechAll along the watchtower 20:39, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
  24. Just to reiterate and explain the point that everyone else is making: as harsh as this may sound, we do not cater to children. This is the Internet, and it is a parent's responsibility to ensure that his or her child does not see anything inappropriate, not ours. If young kids see the image, then their parents should be held accountable for not properly monitoring them. It isn't our job to protect them from reality. CC7567 (talk) 00:01, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
  25. Per Tope.LtNOWIS 02:06, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
  26. Really? Per all of the above and WP:NOT. -- Riffsyphon1024 05:59, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
  27. Frankly, if Trak approves that's good enough for me. This generation is a bunch of degenerates anyway and the stereotypical "what's that" reaction from children is far less common than avoiding it as "icky." Or it used to be. Regardless, she has a lot more sway than a hypothetical one of their number. NaruHina Talk Anakinsolo 06:50, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
  28. Per DangerDan. Ruthless Xero(Comment) 07:33, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
  29. Funniest CT in ages. Green Tentacle (Talk) 21:08, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
  30. I don't understand the big push for Selonians. ToRsO bOy 22:48, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
  31. Nothing left to say. Jedi-Meister »!?« 17:24, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
  32. Why is your keyboard malfunctioning? -- AdmirableAckbar (Talk) 00:48, July 3, 2011 (UTC)
  33. As for the children arguments, it is the job of parents and guardians, not Wookieepedia editors, to safeguard children from seeing things their parents don't want them to see. As for the best image for the page, I think cropping the breast from the rest of the anatomy would perhaps not work in this case, since Aayla is upside-down. [Redacted by administration] ~SavageBOB sig 20:11, July 3, 2011 (UTC)
  34. It isn't a sexual image. It's art, for the sake of art. And breasts sometimes feature in art. When I was a kid, my mother took me to see Titanic in theatres, not concerned about the breasts in it because it was done artfully and tastefully, as opposed to sexually. [Redacted by administration] Taral, Dark Lord of the Sith -Just shy, not antisocial: You can talk to me!- 23:29, July 3, 2011 (UTC)
  35. I need a name (Complain here) 23:38, July 5, 2011 (UTC)
  36. Per all the above. Are we ready to close this page yet? -- SFH 00:05, July 6, 2011 (UTC)
    • Tomorrow, 7:33 PM Eastern/11:33 UTC, per the snowball clause. I think we need to add a "curb stomp" clause to the snowball clause. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 00:10, July 6, 2011 (UTC)

Neutral

  1. I've been convinced of the suitable canonicity of the existing image, but it occurs to me neither of the suggested images in their current state is really suitable for the article. The existing picture isn't of a breast; it's of a nude Twi'lek who happens to have a breast. Similarly, the suggested replacement isn't of a breast, either; it's of a group of Selonians, some of whom have breasts. Whichever image we choose, it should really be cropped to highlight the subject of the article. Cf. Wikipedia's main image in their breast article, which tastefully showcases the subject, limiting itself to only enough of the surroundings to provide context. jSarek 08:38, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
    • Indeed, I have been thinking too that the current image does need cropping to focus more to the article subject. –Tm_T (Talk) 09:02, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
  2. Per jSarek.--Exiled Jedi Oldrepublic crest (Greetings) 04:03, July 6, 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

I believe my vote states all that I can say. If necessary, I will open a debate here.Gnost-Dural | Hands off the holocrons, THEY'RE MINE!! 23:33, June 29, 2011 (UTC)

  • Before I join the dogpile, I need to ask . . . what is the source of the statement that the book is dubiously canonical? jSarek 04:54, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
    • Read the talk page for itGnost-Dural | Hands off the holocrons, THEY'RE MINE!! 11:35, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
      • I did read the talk page for it. What I saw was an anon assert it was non-canon, followed by some people repeating that assertion without evidence and ignoring people making claims to the contrary. So again, I ask, what makes you say its canonicity is in doubt? If there is legitimate doubt as to the canonicity of the image, that's an argument I might agree with for changing it, but since Star Wars Art: Visions is an official product, there is a presumption of canonicity unless some source (Infinities logo on the product, comment from Leland Chee, an article in Star Wars Insider, SOMETHING) indicates otherwise. jSarek 12:00, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
        • I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the assumption comes from the fact that several pieces of artwork included in the collection cannot be considered canonical due to the subject depicted within the artwork (I haven't got access to the book at the moment, so can't provide specifics). However, many of the images appear to be canonical and are used that way on the wiki (some of the images in the Battle of Kothlis article come to mind). Personally, I think each image should be treated independently. Unless the image is clearly shown to be disregarding canon, then it should be considered canonical. - Cavalier OneFarStar(Squadron channel) 12:08, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
          • Cav is right here. FWIW, although I've never looked at this book in it's entirety, it seems extremely similar to the artwork presented in Star Wars: Visionaries, in which some images are of arguably dubious nature, while some are clearly inspired by canonical scenes and are treated as such on the wiki. In other words, each piece is judged individually on its own merits. Toprawa and Ralltiir 17:20, June 30, 2011 (UTC)

[Redacted by administration]Gnost-Dural | Hands off the holocrons, THEY'RE MINE!! 11:35, June 30, 2011 (UTC)

  • [Redacted by administration]Gnost-Dural | Hands off the holocrons, THEY'RE MINE!! 11:41, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
    • I wouldn't actually consider British tabloids to be overly degrading. --Jinzler 11:49, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
      • Yes, I think you kind of missed the point I was trying to make there ... as in, this image is nothing compared to what is freely available within a modern, open-minded and mature society. - Cavalier OneFarStar(Squadron channel) 11:54, June 30, 2011 (UTC)

NOT FIT FOR JUDGEMENT? When it comes to Star Wars, EVERYTHING needs to be approved by him. That would be like... making the palace for a dictator without asking his choice in paint colors! I hate using that example, but it's the closest I could come up with.Gnost-Dural | Hands off the holocrons, THEY'RE MINE!! 11:43, June 30, 2011 (UTC)

  • I have to quote yourself: "Oh, [...] don't be disappointed if it doesn't come out the way YOU want it [the debate] to come out." 1358 (Talk) 11:46, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
    • NOT FIT FOR JUDGEMENT? When it comes to Star Wars, EVERYTHING needs to be approved by him. Including, y'know, the picture of the blue naked boob. Just sayin'. - Cavalier OneFarStar(Squadron channel) 11:54, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
      • Btw, shouting in capitals and accusing people will not do much to rally support for your argument.—TK-999 Era-imp(Rise of the Empire) 12:21, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
        • "Do we really want to tarnish the two golden words that marked the beginning of the saga we now celebrate with nude Jedi.."Oh come on. [Redacted by administration] And calling us sickos almost sounds like an attack WP:NPA. Korsa3 15:05, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
  • [Redacted by administration]Karohalva 15:22, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
    • [Redacted by administration] -- Riffsyphon1024 05:59, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
  • Rather than crowding the votes section with comments, I'll comment here: I see no reason why us or parents should try to protect their children from seeing the said picture. I aknowledge this is (mostly) cultural difference, but still. –Tm_T (Talk) 03:57, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
    • [Redacted by administration] Karohalva 04:43, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
      • [Redacted by administration] –Tm_T (Talk) 05:38, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
      • [Redacted by administration] Karohalva 23:05, July 1, 2011 (UTC)