Forum:CT:Audiobook StoryCite listings

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The result of the debate was support both proposals. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 04:00, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Alrighty, it's me, Cade, the master of sources and weird coding stuff and other nonsense. I bring before you all today our audiobook listings, which have committed the High Crimes of Irking Me and Looking Bad. As I sit here letting Outlaws ambient dialogue play so I can record all the new mentions, I was staring at the Ukio page and its double-listing of the FACPOV story, and it just looks.... bad, honestly. I've never really liked that we double-list the book and audiobook, and I especially don't like it for short story collections. So I came up with this streamlined formatting that combines the main book and audiobook listing into a single line, whilst still linking to both. Just to note, this would be a) used exclusively for unabridged audiobooks, and b) for the time being, only part of {{StoryCite}}. Implementing this for novel/etc. audiobooks will be a separate, later CT; the formatting will be the same, but I want to see if I can come up with a fancy and clean template way to do it so that we keep as much formatting out of the article as possible.

So, without further ado, here are the options and what we're replacing:

Current:

Option 1 (square brackets):

Option 2:

Both of these options would be implemented via an |audiobook=1 parameter on StoryCite, so listings in references would remain unchanged while the entries in Appearances would be updated.

Addendum 1: Per Imp's mention above, I decided to expedite the standalone novel implementation, and I think the simplest way is the following, with my fancy new {{Ab}}, which will take the audiobook article title and will display the paranthetical descriptor in small parantheses/brackets (depending on Vote #2). This means that, for novels that have both abridged and unabridged audibooks, the template will display "unabridged audiobook" instead of just "audiobook", just like we currently do with the normal wikilinks.

Currently, it's the following:

Using {{Ab}}, it would be instead: *[[Aftermath (novel)|''Aftermath'']] {{Ab|Aftermath (audiobook)}} {{Mo}}

And to clarify - in both cases (standalone and story collections), Template:Ab and the audiobook=1 parameter are only to be used in the Appearances section, similar to the reprint=1 parameter on {{WEGCite}}; references can continue to cite the individual work separately. C4-DE will of course be responsible for the consolidation of these audiobook listings, and the Source Engine logic for this will be updated accordingly to add/remove the audiobook listing as necessary.

Addendum 2: As pointed out, this will render the need to specify "simultaneous with audiobook" in {{1st}} and {{1stm}} unnecessary, but can produce confusion when the audiobook is delayed; therefore, I propose that we refrain from specifying the audiobook in 1st/1stm if it is simultaneous, and using {{1st|in book}} for cases where the first appearance is in a book that released prior to its accompanying audiobook.

Addendum 3: This would be the resultant text for the Layout Guide's Appearances audiobook section, replacing the existing #1 with this. The bolded sections are new/changed and I moved the non-commercial one up to a numbered item:

  1. Unabridged audiobooks should be listed in the Appearances section, using the {{Ab}} template for standalone books and the audiobook=1 parameter for story collections that are cited using {{StoryCite}}:
  2. Abridged audiobooks should be listed in the Appearances section, after the book that they are adapting, and ordered by publication date in the case of multiple audiobooks.
  3. Audiobook editions that are not commercial releases, such as the accessibility versions published by Talking Book Publishers, should not be listed in the Appearances.

Vote 1: Combine StoryCite audiobook listings

Support

  1. Still finalizing the technical implementation for the rest of the audiobooks, but this is a good first step. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 22:07, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
  2. Sanathestarr (talk) 22:15, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
  3. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 22:21, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
  4. I would prefer that we be consistent and also do this for novels, but I guess this has to happen first. Audiobooks aren't adaptations, they're the exact same content, so all listing them separately does is clog up the appearances section. CometSmudge (talk) 22:52, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
    • It is worth noting that abridged audiobooks might have content removed from them. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 23:04, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
  5. With the understanding that this is indeed meant to ultimately be applied to unabridged audiobooks of novels as well. Imperators II(Talk) 09:00, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  6. I see this as no different that us listing multiple cards in the same expansion for FFG/AMG products in that fancy collapsible template. - JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 16:03, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  7. OOM 224 (he/him/they) 18:31, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  8. Now that the wording's clearer. 01miki10 Open comlink 19:10, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  9. ThePedantry (talk) 19:11, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  10. Ayrehead02 (talk) 19:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
  11. CooperTFN (talk) 19:08, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
  12. Tommy-Macaroni (he/they) 10:05, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
  13. Asithol (talk) 04:14, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

It may feel redundant that we list book and audiobook separately, but that's what we do for every other source as well. Remember when articles listed every adaptation on the same line as the film? Not to mention all the WEG reprints (or were those already removed?). Besides, the first impression of the parenthetical (audiobook) part is that it simply describes the type of book rather than noting that a audiobook version also exists. 01miki10 Open comlink 22:24, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
The WEG reprints have been moved into the |reprint=1 parameter of the WEGCite template, which displays that the content was reprinted in the appropriate book. This is the same sort of thing, and I'd argue there's an extreme difference between film adaptations being listed on the same line and unabridged audiobooks, which are the same content just in an audio format with the same title, being listed together. No one is suggesting we consolidate beyond audiooboks. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 22:28, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
  1. Different page, different media, separate bullet point. No different, in my opinion, to listing different publishings or adaptations of a source. SorcererSupreme21 (talk) 22:31, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
    • "Some other media uses a subpar listing style" is not a strong argument in favor of audiobooks also using that style. Asithol (talk) 04:14, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Vote 2: {{Ab}} usage for standalone novel audiobooks

Support

  1. Sliding this vote right in here if y'all don't mind. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 19:03, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  2. CometSmudge (talk) 19:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  3. 01miki10 Open comlink 19:10, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  4. ThePedantry (talk) 19:12, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  5. JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 19:13, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  6. Imperators II(Talk) 21:12, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  7. Sanathestarr (talk) 21:37, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  8. OOM 224 (he/him/they) 22:23, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  9. Ayrehead02 (talk) 19:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
  10. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 03:06, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
  11. CooperTFN (talk) 19:08, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
  12. Tommy-Macaroni (he/they) 10:05, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
  13. Asithol (talk) 04:14, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Formatting

Option 1: square brackets

  1. I think this looks cleaner, and it makes the audiobook link more distinct from the {{Mo}} and other templates. And since this is in a template and abstracted out, we can use the single-brackets without needing to do the messy nowiki on the actual articles. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 22:07, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
    Agree that this makes it more clear its not a parenthetical descriptor. CometSmudge (talk) 22:52, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
  2. Consistency here might be slightly misleading, so it's better to have something a little different. OOM 224 (he/him/they) 23:24, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
  3. Per Cade. - JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 16:05, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  4. Per Cade and OOM. Mor9347 (talk) 20:56, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
  5. CooperTFN (talk) 19:08, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Option 2: parantheses

  1. Sanathestarr (talk) 22:15, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
  2. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 22:21, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
  3. If it must happen, parantheses would be consistent. SorcererSupreme21 (talk) 22:32, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
  4. 01miki10 Open comlink 14:58, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  5. I feel like with the added "and" there's no argument anymore standing in the way of consistency. :P Imperators II(Talk) 15:51, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  6. Since "and" has been added to remove any confusion CometSmudge (talk) 15:59, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  7. ThePedantry (talk) 19:11, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  8. I was fairly indifferent to this, but Cade blamed the British for the failure of his beloved square brackets so I might as well make him right. Ayrehead02 (talk) 19:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    Me to you. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 21:49, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
  9. Tommy-Macaroni (he/they) 10:05, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
  10. We should follow American English punctuation convention, as our MOS mandates. Asithol (talk) 04:14, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

  • Just thought of this, but maybe doing it like (and audiobook) (regardless of the bracket type) would help even more with differentiating these links from parenthetical disambiguators? Imperators II(Talk) 08:31, 31 August 2024 (UTC)