Forum:CT:App Template - Creatures/Species

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The result of the debate was Support Proposal 1; Oppose Proposal 2. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 23:51, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Relevant SH Thread: Forum:SH:Appearances - Updating the Creatures Field

This is a two-part vote for which two different changes are being suggested. Both are regarding the {{App}} template.

Proposal 1

Expand the "Creatures" section of the {{App}} template to include all other organisms (barring sentient species, which are part of proposal 2), renaming the section to "Organisms."

Support

  1. As proposer. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 23:35, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 00:04, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 00:27, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. To account for organisms such as fungi, lichens, micro-organisms, and species that do not exactly fit into either of those labels, including those of creatures and plants. Imperators II(Talk) 07:24, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  5. OOM 224 (he/him) 10:14, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  6. Panther436 (talk) 17:12, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  7. Fan26 (Talk) 18:12, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  8. Ayrehead02 (talk) 18:22, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  9. Sir Cavalier of OneFarStar(Squadron channel) 18:37, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  10. --Vitus InfinitusTalk 20:47, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  11. Rakhsh (talk) 21:00, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  12. JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 04:16, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
  13. Master FredceriqueCommerce Guild(talk) (he/him) 09:41, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
  14. <-Omicron(Leave a message at the BEEP!) 15:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
  15. —spookywillowwtalk 15:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
  16. ThrawnChiss7 Mitth symbol Assembly Cupola 23:37, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Proposal 2

Conditional on Proposal 1 passing
Include sentient species and semi-sentient species in the "Organisms" section of the {{App}} template, and remove the "Sentient species" section of the template.

Support

  1. As proposer. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 23:35, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Since Star Wars can be quite vague about sapience at times. Imperators II(Talk) 09:04, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Given the blurred lines that semi-sentient creatures like the Kowakian monkey lizard provide I think having everything in one category is simpler, plus it means we have a clear answer as to where something like Reptile should go since at the moment you'd have to chose between the two sections if a source had both Trandoshans and dewbacks. Ayrehead02 (talk) 18:22, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

  1. I... I really don't think this is a good idea. There is a definite distinction between sentient and non-sentient species, and it's worth keeping that distinction in the appearances section for our readers' sakes. Cade GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Calrayn 00:04, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Per Cade, keeping the sentient species separate would make it easier to navigate, imo. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 00:27, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Sentient species section is definitely helpful, and IMO anything not definitively sentient can go with organisms, including semi-sentients, which are usually just smart creatures and not beings with human-like minds. Panther436 (talk) 17:12, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. Per Cade Fan26 (Talk) 18:12, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  5. Thinking purely from a reader perspective, while combining sentient species into an overall organisms field could make sense, to a visitor looking for information on alien species, having a dedicated section makes things easier. If you're looking for a potential solution on what to do with semi-sentient species, then I would potentially recommending retitling the section to "species" with the understanding that it covers both sentient and semi-sentient species, and the organisms field would cover explicitly non-sentient species and creatures/animals. I would also not like to combine the two fields into one overpopulated field. - Sir Cavalier of OneFarStar(Squadron channel) 18:37, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  6. --Vitus InfinitusTalk 20:48, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  7. JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 04:16, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
  8. Yeah, I'm definitely looking for a distinction between sentient species and other species as a reader. Master FredceriqueCommerce Guild(talk) (he/him) 09:41, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
  9. <-Omicron(Leave a message at the BEEP!) 15:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
  10. —spookywillowwtalk 15:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
  11. ThrawnChiss7 Mitth symbol Assembly Cupola 23:37, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

  • I admit it would be awkward if Proposal 2 passed and Proposal 1 did not, but they are separate votes as some may agree with one change but not the other. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 23:38, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
    • Statement irrelevant after revision - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 09:03, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  • The current proposal is also awkward because, in the event of Vote 1 not passing, it suggests listing sentient species under "Creatures", which... huh? Imperators II(Talk) 07:24, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
    • That's a fair point, not sure why I didn't make it dependent on vote 1 in the first place. Either way it's revised to be dependent on it now. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 09:03, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  • For the folks voting oppose here, it'd be nice if we could hear some ideas on where should semi-sentient species be best listed in. Imperators II(Talk) 07:24, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
    • Same goes for species of unclarified sentience - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 09:01, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
      • Per Panther above, I think listing all species that are not confirmed to be sentient or possess human-like minds in Organism would work. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 17:50, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
  • Another point brought up in the SH thread that the oppose vote doesn't really address is—in lieu of consolidating all organisms into one section—where do we put links to more general biological classification terms such as reptile or plant and so on. To quote Ayrehead from in there, "if a book has Trandoshans and dewbacks, which gets reptiles above it?" Imperators II(Talk) 18:07, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
    • Oops, didn't realise I'd already been quoted saying this in the thread before also including it in my vote. Ayrehead02 (talk) 18:24, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
    • I mean reptiles as a whole aren't a species, just a class, so they should just go with organisms no? Panther436 (talk) 18:28, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
      • That is a fair point, but then we shouldn't included sub-species or races like Alderaanian under the heading either by the same exclusive logic. Ayrehead02 (talk) 18:38, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
      • Perhaps we can have an "Organisms and biological classifications" section to make the distinction clear while still listing races as sub-bullets of relevant species. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 19:02, 2 December 2023 (UTC)