Forum:CT:Amendment to WP:TALK regarding slurs

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The result of the debate was Support proposal. 1358 ^(Talk) 17:42, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

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It has come to our attention that the administration does not have the clear authority per policy to redact slurs from talk page comments. As we build and foster a more inclusive community and culture, it is imperative that admins be able to remove offensive content swiftly. I therefore present a slight amendment to WP:TALK, with the changes visible in bold here.

Support

1. MasterFred(talk) 22:29, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
2. 01miki10 ^{Open comlink} 22:32, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
3. Thank you for acting swiftly on this, admins! Immi Thrax (talk) 22:36, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
4. DarthRuiz30 (talk) 22:37, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
5. Tommy-Macaroni 22:37, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
6. Wok142 (talk) 22:38, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
7. Green Tentacle ^(Talk) 22:40, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
8. RattsT (talk) 22:42, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
9. Cade Calrayn 22:45, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
10. Ramsay Sanders (talk) 22:45, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
11. IFYLOFD ^(Talk) 22:57, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
12. Jedimca0^{(Do or Do Not, There is No Try)} 22:59, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
13. Great! Technically, the existing policy could be interpreted to permit attacks on identity groups rather than individuals. Glad we’re closing this hole. — YakovChaimTzvi (talk) 23:02, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
14. Zed42 (talk) 23:07, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
15. Ayrehead02 (talk) 23:10, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
16. Editoronthewiki (talk) 23:21, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
17. JMAS ^{Hey, it's me!} 23:31, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
18. VergenceScatter (talk) 00:20, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
19. infectedzombieguy(Talk to me!) 01:06, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
20. Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 01:24, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
21. Lewisr (talk) 01:28, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
22. Rakhsh (talk) 01:34, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
23. Commander Code-8 ^{Hello There!} 02:07, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
24. Minnabird ^(talk) 03:14, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
25. Andykatib 06:49, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
26. ...Is this the right place to mention that Fred misspelled "Amendment" in the page title? SilverSunbird (talk) 07:00, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
27. Braha'tok enthusiast ^{Hello there} 07:18, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
28. 1358 ^(Talk) 07:47, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
29. LucaRoR ^(Talk) 13:02, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
30. UberSoldat93 (talk) 13:06, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
31. --Vitus Infinitus^Talk 13:08, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
32. OOM 224 16:30, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
33. JediMasterMacaroni^(Talk) 02:56, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
34. grunny@wookieepedia:~$ 11:42, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
35. JMM (talk) 13:07, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
36. Supreme Emperor ^Holocomm 15:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
37. Cumulonimbus Cloud 20:05, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
38. Fan26 (Talk) 20:11, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
39. Already in practice by us Discussions mods. Glad to see it expanded sitewide. Jedi Sarith LeKit (talk) 05:14, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

While I support the need to foster an inclusive and welcoming community, I still have some reservations since this may have implications for free speech. Obviously, it is wrong to use racist, sexist, homophobic, and transphobic slurs or insults when interacting with fellow Wookieepedians and other users. However, I think we need clear definitions about what constitutes slurs and insults. I am just concerned that people having differences of opinions over various Star Wars and real world issues might get shut down or censored just because an administrator doesn't like them. While we need to protect the community, we also need to protect against abuses of power by authority figures. Just to be clear I support the intentions of this proposal but I think we need further clarity about slurs before I can support it. Thanks. Andykatib 03:29, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• I'd just like to say that while I understand that there are potential problems that could be caused by the passage of this CT, while there are actual problems caused by keeping this kind of language on the wiki, so I think it's worth allowing admins the necessary tools to remove it. VergenceScatter (talk) 03:42, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Hi VergenceScatter, I see your point. I agree that it will be good to give our administrators the necessary framework and tools to eliminate offensive speech. Still, it will be good to set boundaries and parameters. Will also be good to ensure that our policies are in line with Fandom policy and possibly US laws since Fandom is a US-based company. Andykatib 03:51, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
    • I feel like grossly derogatory is fairly clear. I am not sure how else to specify any more without just listing the terms and phrases that are not allowed, which is not a realistic option because it restricts the admins from being able to act on nuance. MasterFred(talk) 04:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
    • There's a big difference between having an opinion about Star Wars and using derogatory slurs, which this amendment is about.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 04:56, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
      • Hi Master Fredcerique and DarthRuiz30, I understand your points. Agree that it won't be good to limit the ability of administrators to respond to offensive behaviour and bullying. Now that we have discussed things, I am confident that our administrators and users know how to spot offensive content and make discerning judgements. Any behaviour that disrupts the peace of this website or adversely affects other people's ability to use the website should not be tolerated. I also accept Wookieepedia's policy that controversial issues including politics have no place here. Have no more objections. Andykatib 05:10, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Just so you don't feel like a lone voice, I 100% agree with this and the thought did cross my mind prior to voting. We do need to address the immediate and real issue rather than what may hypothetically occur. We can always make changes in the future but we also need to remember that language evolves over time, I think the wording caters for it sufficiently. Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 09:35, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

To be clear, this amendment does not really affect what is allowed to be posted. Posting a comment with slurs is already disallowed under the Civility policy and also the Fandom Terms of Use (under User conduct). Administrators have in the past and will continue to block users who post derogative content, whether that is aimed at another contributor or not. What this amendment does is give administrators the possibility to, in addition to blocking the offender, remove the derogative content itself from the talk page. I don't believe this amendment really affects "free speech" because speech on Wookieepedia is already regulated by WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, and Fandom policies, and none of those are being amended in this vote. 1358 ^(Talk) 10:05, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• • Good clarification, Ecks! -- YakovChaimTzvi (talk) 18:35, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• A very quick speech-related summary from a non-lawyer/this-does-not-constitute-legal-advice: 1) U.S.-based web hosts can restrict speech however they see fit (online speech doesn't fall under the commonly misunderstood first amendment/"freedom of speech" unless it's the government getting involved); 2) web hosts are protected from civil liability for good-faith removals of content deemed objectionable or offensive, and 3) Section 230 allows the federal government to bring criminal charges for hosting illegal content and means web hosts are criminally liable for what their users post. To my not-a-lawyer knowledge, allowing our admins to remove slurs and other content deemed offensive by the community is in alignment with both U.S. law and Fandom policy. Immi Thrax (talk) 11:19, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Thanks Immi Thrax for clarifying the legal issues around removing objectional content. This gives me the assurance that our Admins will be on safe ground. Andykatib 12:05, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Thank you Immi for clarifying that as arbitrary as online forums' rules often are, they in no way infringe upon sacred First Amendment rights and that the First Amendment is not something we have to take in to consideration when regulating oursevles as a community. Fan26 (Talk) 20:11, 11 September 2021 (UTC)