Wookieepedia:Good article nominations/Guts and Glory (third nomination)

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The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a good article nomination that was successful. Please do not modify it.

Guts and Glory: A Chronicle of The Amazing Story of The Twisted Rancor Trio

  • Nominated by: Sol PacificusFirestorm 22:56, October 22, 2016 (UTC)
  • Nomination comments: An article that exceeded the word limit for a comprehensive article nomination. "This article was nominated before. I tried to address the points raised in the previous nomination. I am unsure of the proper layout for articles concerning books. Also, I was very skeptical of referring to this as a "book" in the first place, as the only known version we find is a draft that is only a several paragraphs long. I mentioned this in the article's talk page. I suppose the author intended it to be a book eventually."

(3 ACs/2 Users/5 Total)

Support

  1. Provided EJ's objections are satisfied.—Jedi Kasra ("Indeed.") 12:02, February 20, 2017 (UTC)
  2. Fine after my review. Corellian PremierJedi symbolThe Force will be with you always 17:11, May 11, 2017 (UTC)
  3. ACvote This must have been tricky to write, but it's an interesting read. I like the articles you write. You should write more articles. :P Imperators II(Talk) 18:16, May 21, 2017 (UTC)
  4. ACvote Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 22:20, August 29, 2017 (UTC)
  5. ACvote Exiled Jedi (talk) 01:31, August 30, 2017 (UTC)

Object

Exiled Jedi
  • The introduction to this article should be expanded.
    • I've expanded it as asked. I'm still not accustomed to how much detail an introduction should incorporate. Sol PacificusFirestorm 22:26, November 12, 2016 (UTC)
  • There is some context about the band in the Slugthrowers article that should be mentioned in this article.
    • I cannot find any mention of this band in the slugthrowers article. :-/ Sol PacificusFirestorm 20:49, November 12, 2016 (UTC)
    • Oooh my bad. I did not realize you meant the reference article at StarWars.com. I used that source to describe the band as a jatz band, but I'm not sure if more should be mentioned. Refer below, this article pertains to the book, not the band itself, which is something I'm being careful about. Sol PacificusFirestorm 22:26, November 12, 2016 (UTC)
      • I think the fact that they are a jatz band is important enough to mention in the body of the article, not just the BTS.--Exiled Jedi (talk) 23:29, January 10, 2017 (UTC)
        • I've added a brief mention of it in the contents section as well, which reminds me, isn't it Wookieepedian policy for the things that are described in the introduction to be reintroduced in the body paragraphs? My current "Contents" section doesn't appear to do that, as it opens up as a continuation of the introduction. Does this need to be fixed? Sol PacificusFirestorm 02:33, January 11, 2017 (UTC)
        • This has been fixed. Just want to double-check if you missed it or not. Sol PacificusFirestorm 01:31, August 14, 2017 (UTC)
  • The 3956 BBY date cannot be sourced directly to the game.
    • The game and Revan's events on Taris are set in 3956 BBY is it not? I did not write that the book was written or authored or published in 3956 BBY, but only that it was a "work in progress in 3956 BBY" meaning that at some point during that year, the book was not yet completed. We don't know when he began the book or when he finished it, but we know that Revan found it as a work in progress in 3956 BBY. Sol PacificusFirestorm 20:22, November 12, 2016 (UTC)
      • Yes, but the game does not directly say 3956 BBY. It gave an approximate date that clearly defined in other sources.--Exiled Jedi (talk) 23:29, January 10, 2017 (UTC)
  • Its mention in the Slughthrowers article should be mentioned in the BTS.
    • I can find no mention of it in the slugthrowers article, and there is no relevance of the band or the book to slugthrowers in the game.Sol PacificusFirestorm 22:26, November 12, 2016 (UTC)
    • Nevermind, I missed that you were referring to the reference article on StarWars.com. I have done as requested, but double-check that I did the citation correctly, as I have trouble with the proper format of citations that use templates.Sol PacificusFirestorm 22:26, November 12, 2016 (UTC)
  • Please include an image of the datapad from the game as it is an image of the work.
    • I will need help with this as I have no experience with retrieving images. I assumed that the process involved screen-shooting, pasting onto a document, then using some image editor to convert it to some means by which it can be uploaded. However, for whatever reason, any attempts to take a screenshot in the game results in a black-screen image. I did not formerly have this trouble with the game on this PC years ago. I'm actually not entirely sure we should include the image of the datapad in the first place. It shares the same image of datapad as many other datapads in the game. Sol PacificusFirestorm 22:26, November 12, 2016 (UTC)
      • I don't have the game installed, so you will need to request an image from someone else. Sorry.--Exiled Jedi (talk) 23:29, January 10, 2017 (UTC)
        • Are you sure that this article would really benefit from the image? Because the image of the datapad is literally identical to the image of every other datapad in the game, including all the Star Maps. As such, I'm not sure if the image of the datapad can really be said to actually show this book, or if we'd be portraying it like the image uniquely shows the book while it actually can also be said to show the Star Maps, a water pump analysis report, a scientist's memo, etc. Moreover, the datapad isn't technically the book itself, but a device holding a draft of it. Sol PacificusFirestorm 02:45, January 11, 2017 (UTC)
        • I just added the image. I still disagree it should be included for the reasons I've stated, but I added it so you can get a better look. It's also quite low quality, but it's the best I can do. Sol PacificusFirestorm 11:55, January 20, 2017 (UTC)
  • Please provide a quote for the contents section.
    • Done, but I'm not sure my choice of quote is the best one.
  1. "The origins of what would eventually become the most famous band in the galaxy are surprisingly humble. The brains behind the group, manager Gilthos Uksaris, founded the Trio to earn a date with a young singer named Elinda." (introduction)
  2. "Davik asked Gilthos to bring his group in for a command performance. Gilthos agreed, realizing this could be the band's big break. Unfortunately, Elinda had heard certain unsubstantiated rumors about Davik Kang and his connections to the Exchange. Fearing for her life, she refused to go to his estate to perform." (6th line)
  3. "Many felt that without Elinda's singing the band would crumble. But Gilthos came up with a brilliant plan to save the group by hiring Elinda's sister, Ashana, as the new lead singer on the eve of their scheduled appearance at Davik's estate." (7th line)
  4. "Gilthos knew he was taking a risk. If Ashana couldn't perform at Elinda's level, Davik's infamous temper could have dire consequences for the entire band. However, if Ashana could match her sister's performance then Davik was likely to sign the band to a big time touring contract." (8th line)
  5. "It was a risk, but The Twisted Rancor Trio was founded on "Guts and Glory". (9th and last line)
I personally thought the last line was perfect as the introduction quote in the article. I preferred the 8th line for the Content section's quote, but I'm afraid that it may be weird given that it leads directly to the quote we have in the introduction section. I currently am using the 7th line. I considered using the first line of "the origins of what would [...]" but thought that might be too tame. Which line do you think is best? Sol PacificusFirestorm 21:08, November 12, 2016 (UTC)
I think that the one you selected is fine.--Exiled Jedi (talk) 23:29, January 10, 2017 (UTC)
  • Looking at the text from the in-game item, it looks like there is more detail that should be added to the article.
    • I intentionally minimized details from the text from the in-game item because this article deals with the book itself not the Twisted Rancor Trio or its members. The book provides a summary of the history of the band, the article explains the book and therefore explains the summary of the history of the band, not the history of the band per se. In contrast, I explained the narrative of the band and its members in as much detail as I could in their respective articles (save the band itself which I didn't work on). I tried to provide as much detail as I could in accordance with this policy of explaining the book's contents, not paraphrasing what the book narrates. Sol PacificusFirestorm 20:49, November 12, 2016 (UTC)
    • In other words, I am being very careful about making sure the content of this article has the book as the topic, not the band itself. Sol PacificusFirestorm 22:26, November 12, 2016 (UTC)
    • I actually wanted to add that we possibly could go for a "Plot summary" section instead. Since it is an in-universe article, we could write it like how Wikipedia often has a plot summary or synopsis section for books and movies. Maybe this is the better approach. My main reasoning why I did not go this route is because the text is actually quite brief, and I am fairly certain that applying as much detail as possible, the "Plot summary" would actually be longer than the original text itself, which I found awkward as it's meant to be a "summary". xD Sol PacificusFirestorm 01:29, November 17, 2016 (UTC)
      • Well, the thing is that the article should do its best to be comprehensive and cover everything that the original does. If it needs to be longer than the actual game text to adequately explain its contents, that is not an issue. You don't need to refer to everything verbatim, but you need to hit all of the main points / themes. Here are the main areas I think are lacking:
        • You don't really mention how Uksaris refers to Davik as a legitimate businessman and that the rumors of being connected to Exchange are unsubstantiated, but then he mentions the major risk and dire consequences if they disappoint him. I think these are important to note.
        • Also, I think you should mention that Uksaris wrote that if Ashana could match Elinda that Davik would likely sign them to a major touring contract.--Exiled Jedi (talk) 23:29, January 10, 2017 (UTC)
          • I've done as you asked. Those were indeed some important details I missed, even if I were posing it as a description of the book's contents, not the story itself. However, I had some slight trouble fitting these missing pieces in without rewriting the whole thing. I did think that it was good to note that the missing details explain the title and theme of the book.
In regards to mentioning that Uksaris seemed to suggest Kang's association with the Exchange are but unsubstantiated rumors, and that he referred to him as a legitimate businessman, I added it in the last line as:
"Though authored by Uksaris, he had chosen to write it in the third-person, but this did not stop it from being tinged with his perspective, as he refers to Kang as a "legitimate businessman" whose affiliation with the Exchange are unsubstantiated rumors—rumors that were in fact entirely true."
I'm not sure of this approach because I think it might verge on making my own interpretation of the piece, in describing its diction and implications. My earlier version to try to incorporate this piece was this:
"At the time that the draft was written, the invitation and the conflict that ensued were recent developments, as the narrative ended with Ashana replacing her sister Elinda as lead singer on the eve of the scheduled performance when the latter refused to accept the invitation for fear of Kang's rumored association with the Exchange.
Because Ashana's musical skill was untested and failure to please the crime lord could provoke the Exchange's wrath, the band was aware that the last-minute plot could endanger their lives. Nevertheless, Uksaris, aside from his skepticism of these rumors, was adamant that the reward—for Kang to sign them onto a major touring contract—outweighed these risks. It is thus in allusion to this bold gamble that Uksaris based the theme of his book: "guts and glory"."
My issue with this earlier version is that I'm not sure "rumors" clearly referred to Kang's rumored association with the Exchange as its 2 lines away not to mention in the previous paragraph. Also it doesn't refer to him thinking of him as a legitimate businessman, which I don't personally think we really need to explicitly state (i.e. I think it's enough just to say Uksaris didn't believe those rumors were unsubstiantiated), but anyways if we wanted to include it, I was having trouble fitting those in without creating sentences that run too long, hence the version I'm using at the moment. Sol PacificusFirestorm 02:25, January 11, 2017 (UTC)
  • Have you checked Knights of the Old Republic: Prima's Official Strategy Guide for any mention of the book?
    • I just checked. I can find no mention of it, even in the items section. The strategy guide is for the Xbox version, and I'm not sure one for the PC was ever made. It's entirely possible this little mini-quest was never part of the Xbox version of the game, which is outdated compared to the PC version. Sol PacificusFirestorm 20:49, November 12, 2016 (UTC)
      • Please try and find out if it was in the Xbox version then. If it is not, then that should be mentioned in the BTS.--Exiled Jedi (talk) 23:29, January 10, 2017 (UTC)
        • As I said, the Xbox version doesn't include any mention of it. Wouldn't mentioning this in the BTS simply be to say that it's absent from the source? I'm not sure if it makes sense to write in BTS sections that an article's subject is absent from particular sources. :-/ Sol PacificusFirestorm 02:33, January 11, 2017 (UTC)
          • You said that it was entirely possible that it wasn't in the Xbox version of the game. That is what I wanted you to check and include in the BTS if it is not in that version.--Exiled Jedi (talk) 02:50, January 11, 2017 (UTC)
            • Ahh my bad. So a quick search online, I've found this, which seems to prove that it is in the Xbox version. If it wasn't, it should obviously be noted, but since it is, is there still anything to note? Sol PacificusFirestorm 03:01, January 11, 2017 (UTC)
  • I will look over the article again after you finish with these objections.--Exiled Jedi (talk) 15:28, November 12, 2016 (UTC)
  • In the full text section of the article, I don't think you should include the "[There are no further entries.]" as part of the in-universe work.
  • There are a lot of very short paragraphs in the description section. Could you try and work some of them together?
    • I merged two paragraphs together, but I'm not so sure about the others. I think you can feel free to adjust it yourself. On the other wiki I work on, admins sometimes prefer paragraphs to be as short as 3 lines, something I really disagree with them about, so I'm a bit confused over how long paragraphs should be here. Sol PacificusFirestorm 01:30, August 14, 2017 (UTC)
  • I would note that Uksaris had discussed mentioned the work to a least one person, namely his friend.--Exiled Jedi (talk) 21:54, August 12, 2017 (UTC)
    • Done. I only added it to the body because I don't think it's significant enough of a detail to include in the introduction. Sol PacificusFirestorm 01:30, August 14, 2017 (UTC)
Couple things…
  • Overall, some of the subjects in the article need describing, such as to what ecactly is the Exchange, the Lower of City of what or where, who Bastila and Carth were, etc.
    • Done. Always a good point, as this is my major gripe with Wikipedian articles :P. However, I thought "Lower City" was a bit self-explanatory, as the "lower levels" of Taris, unless you wanted it to be described as crime-infested. I don't think district is necessarily accurate since it spanned the entire city but a plane lower. I did add "of Taris" though.
  • Always link subjects at their first mention in the article body. Also, as I stated in the nomination page for Ice, there is no need to link subjects in quotations.
  • If you have any questions, feel free to ask me.—Jedi Kasra ("Indeed.") 16:56, February 17, 2017 (UTC)
The CP

Nice job, but I would like to see a bit more to the intro, such as the fact that the guy had it in a datapad in his apartment. Corellian PremierJedi symbolThe Force will be with you always 19:51, April 30, 2017 (UTC)

  • I also agree with CP's point. You should mention in the intro how Revan was connected to all this, just like on your Holdan and Ice nominations. Imperators II(Talk) 10:59, May 1, 2017 (UTC)
  • Done. I'm still a little confused about this because information like that is part of game mechanics not confirmed 100% canon. Sol PacificusFirestorm 17:58, May 9, 2017 (UTC)
Imperators II
  • Having the same image illustrating several different subjects is fine, but maybe you could add a comment to the infobox title that it's a datapad containing the draft.
  • Jedi Civil War and the destruction of Taris are intro-exclusive.
    • Would you prefer that the Jedi Civil War be added in the "Description" or the "History" section? The latter seems the most obvious, however, the only reason why it's in the intro in the first place was as context for the Twisted Rancor Trio, which in the body, appears in the "Description". When I was writing this, I didn't think the war is relevant to the book itself (though relevant to the band), or does it not really matter? Sol PacificusFirestorm 11:56, May 1, 2017 (UTC)
    • Done. Sol PacificusFirestorm 17:58, May 9, 2017 (UTC)
  • Is "guts and glory" the book's theme or rather its title?
    • It's both. I thought mentioning that Uksaris poses it as the theme that inspires the title, or references to it directly is an important detail about the book. Sol PacificusFirestorm 11:56, May 1, 2017 (UTC)
  • Uksaris's opinion on Kang is a fine example on the book's subjective perspective, but I think that an even better example is Uksaris's referring to his idea to replace Elinda with Ashana as a "brilliant plan" despite his friend's warning and the fact that Uksaris himself admitted it was a risk. Maybe add it as well?
  • It seems to me Uksaris's friend merits an article.
  • "In the same vein, since it ended with Ashana's recruitment as the replacement for Elinda on the eve of the band's scheduled performance for Davik Kang, it is not known whether his plan was a success or failure." - I'm afraid this sentence doesn't really have anything to do with the book and would better be at home on the band's article.
    • I think that there isn't any real harm in including the sentence even if its connection to the memoir is tangential because it helps clarify the consequence of where the memoir happens to leave off: that it leaves the fate of the band unknown because this is our only source on them. I modified the sentence to clarify the relevance of the sentence. Sol PacificusFirestorm 17:58, May 9, 2017 (UTC)
  • I believe the proper name of the band should be "The Twisted Rancor Trio".
  • The first section (I've changed it to Description per the precedent of our other IU written work GAs) needs a bit of rearranging. It seems that the sequence of events was something like this: 1) Elinda refused to participate, 2) then there were some doubts about the band's future, and 3) Ashana was recruited (by Uksaris - this also needs to be noted). Your writing should reflect this sequence more accurately. Dealing with this issue should also help clarify the "the conflict that ensued" bit that you mention without any prior context.
    • I'm not really sure about this. From what I see, it's not really that the sequence of the events are off so much as I summarized the entire sequence in one sentence, that is, I noted that Ashana replaced Elinda and why. I think part of the confusion might be the fact I went with a restrained plot summary, owing to my own confusion over the proper manual of style for articles on books, so I summarized that whole sequence rather than going through each and every detail in precise chronological order. I'm also doubtful that the "the conflict that ensued" needs context since it is referring directly to (or was intended to refer directly to) the clause that immediately follows: "as the narrative ended with Ashana replacing her sister Elinda as lead singer on the eve of the scheduled performance when the latter refused to accept the invitation for fear of Kang's association with the Exchange, a powerful crime syndicate". Sol PacificusFirestorm 11:56, May 1, 2017 (UTC)
      • If I'm reading the sentence correctly, the word "as" in "as the narrative ended" is used as a conjunction with the meaning "for the reason that; because". So the sentence as is basically reads "... the invitation and the conflict ... were recent developments, because the narrative ended with Ashana replacing Elinda ...". But it should be the other way around, "... the narrative ended with Ashana replacing Elinda ..., because ... the invitation and the conflict ... were recent developments". Imperators II(Talk) 09:27, May 10, 2017 (UTC)
        • As I was correcting the sentence, I realized that I must've written it that way originally to account for the fact that we can't simply say that this was where the narrative ended because Gilthos, for all we know, continued writing it later (albeit on a different datapad if he had it backed up somewhere). That is to say, this is where the narrative ended when Revan found it, not necessarily where it ended in its final draft. Somehow, accommodating this led to the phrasing as it was. Here's an example of how unwieldy I found it: "The draft of the narrative as the amnesiac Dark Lord of the Sith Revan found it ended with Ashana replacing her sister Elinda as lead singer on the eve of the scheduled performance when the latter refused to accept the invitation for fear of Kang's association with the Exchange, a powerful crime syndicate because these were the latest developments at the time Revan recovered it." In my correction, I just omitted the mention that these were the latest developments when Revan found a draft of it altogether. It's probably also because putting the "because these were recent developments" at the end causes confusion, making it sound as though it intends to refer to Elinda's refusal to accept the invitation instead, not the fact that the narrative ended where it did when Revan found it. In any case, I have corrected it, or tried to. Sol PacificusFirestorm 09:19, May 21, 2017 (UTC)
Toprawa
  • Is this reward a potential reward that they hope might come of their performance, or is this something that Kang had promised to them? "Nevertheless, Uksaris was adamant that the reward—for Kang to sign them onto a major touring contract—outweighed these risks."
    • I have always thought that the text itself is ambiguous as to whether Kang had promised it to them or whether Uksaris had just expected it or wanted to negotiate it. As I was writing it, though, I worded it as such in regards to flow and also in the interest of trying to keep the wording more concise, but you're right that it needs some clarity. I'm not sure if my modification to "an expected reward" (esp. as opposed to "the reward") is sufficient though. Sol PacificusFirestorm 18:54, August 29, 2017 (UTC)
  • In the game-completion section, I revised the text to say, as I presumed, that the friend mentioned there is the same friend mentioned and linked earlier. If this is incorrect, please revise.
    • That is correct. Good job for catching it. Sol PacificusFirestorm 18:54, August 29, 2017 (UTC)
      • I'm actually confused on another part now. Is this Uksaris's apartment that they're going through? It seems so if the crate that's in the apartment was delivered by Uksaris's friend. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 21:00, August 29, 2017 (UTC)
        • In all likelihood it probably is Uksaris's apartment. However, I refrained from mentioning it because it is never explicitly stated as such in the source material. Sol PacificusFirestorm 21:54, August 29, 2017 (UTC)
        • I thought that while unlikely, it's not impossible for it to have been someone else's apartment (or maybe another band member), which Uksaris just happened to be staying over at for a night or two (hence why his datapad was left there), and at the same time, he thought it was more convenient for the package to be delivered there for some reason. Sounds maybe a little convoluted, but I was trying to be open-minded. Sol PacificusFirestorm 21:59, August 29, 2017 (UTC)
          • Fair enough. I reworked those two paragraphs to remove some redundancy (both paragraphs were establishing the setting of Revan exploring the apartment) and unnecessary context (there's no real point to mentioning Revan's companions, who have nothing specifically to do with the Guts and Glory draft). Please check to see if {{Clear}} is still necessary in Monobook and remove if not. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 22:17, August 29, 2017 (UTC)
  • There's plenty of room in the article for an image. I assume the best one to use is that of the band from the Twister Rancor Trio article. I'd put it in myself, but I'm not sure which section it would go best in. I leave that to you. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 04:55, August 24, 2017 (UTC)

Comments

Approved as a Good article by AgriCorps 01:32, August 30, 2017 (UTC)


  • Falls under WP:KOTOR.—Jedi Kasra ("Indeed.") 15:04, January 27, 2017 (UTC)
    • It does, are you just making a note of it or is there something more you mean by it in extension? Should I be joining the WikiProject? Sol PacificusFirestorm 15:32, January 27, 2017 (UTC)
      • Merely making a note. I was, and probably still am, I don't remember, the project lead. I'm back on the site... and will review this article soon.—Jedi Kasra ("Indeed.") 18:12, February 16, 2017 (UTC)
  • For your consideration: it seems that {{Excerpt}} is sometimes used to present the whole text of IU sources, for example, on the articles for Order 4, Order 5, Order 65, Ballad of Cham Syndulla, Bodo Baas's Master. Imperators II(Talk) 09:27, May 10, 2017 (UTC)
  • Hm, moving the image of the holograms of the band in the History section from where I put it causes it to awkwardly butt into the Endgame template in the Monobook skin. According to the edit summary, this was so it looks better in the Oasis skin though? I'm not sure how to fix this though. Over at Assassin's Creed Wiki, we have a template that we use to solve this. Sol PacificusFirestorm 19:01, August 29, 2017 (UTC)
    • And now so do we. :P But yeah, since the vast majority of Wook's readers use Oasis skin, we have to cater to the lowest common denominator. :P Imperators II(Talk) 19:19, August 29, 2017 (UTC)