Wookieepedia:Good article nominations/Garth Breise (second nomination)

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The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a good article nomination that was unsuccessful. Please do not modify it.

Garth Breise

  • Nominated by: OtterSurf (talk) 17:50, December 31, 2018 (UTC)
  • Nomination comments:

(0 ACs/2 Users/2 Total)

Support

  1. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 15:07, January 4, 2019 (UTC)
  2. Well done. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 09:32, January 10, 2019 (UTC)

Object

We've got Impcoming
  • Hey now, most of the unaddressed issues from this article's previous GA nomination are still present. Imperators II(Talk) 19:58, December 31, 2018 (UTC)
    • Yep, there's still work to do. OtterSurf (talk) 20:21, December 31, 2018 (UTC)
      • When nominating other such status articles, please keep in mind that you should resolve any such outstanding issues before nominating the article. Imperators II(Talk) 20:28, December 31, 2018 (UTC)
  • We need a category for ExGal members. I believe Danni Quee is also one, for example. Imperators II(Talk) 19:58, December 31, 2018 (UTC)
    • That category doesn't exist. Should I create it? OtterSurf (talk) 20:21, December 31, 2018 (UTC)
      • If there really are other known ExGal members other than Breise, then yes. Imperators II(Talk) 20:28, December 31, 2018 (UTC)
        • Done and done. And I mean done. OtterSurf (talk) 11:14, January 1, 2019 (UTC)
          • For future reference, please note that categories should be listed in alphabetical order. Imperators II(Talk) 01:54, January 3, 2019 (UTC)
  • You don't need to link stuff in quotes if you mention it in the article's body. Imperators II(Talk) 19:58, December 31, 2018 (UTC)
  • Date is infobox- and intro-exclusive... Imperators II(Talk) 19:58, December 31, 2018 (UTC)
  • ... and it needs to be referenced to a source other than the novel, such as The Essential Reader's Companion, with a manual ref note if necessary. Imperators II(Talk) 19:58, December 31, 2018 (UTC)
    • Looking for a source. Your idea sounds good. OtterSurf (talk) 20:21, December 31, 2018 (UTC)
    • Done. OtterSurf (talk) 12:32, January 1, 2019 (UTC)
  • Last sentence of BTS is unnecessary. Imperators II(Talk) 19:58, December 31, 2018 (UTC)
  • Actually, in the BTS I'd only keep the novel's name, release date, and author. Imperators II(Talk) 19:58, December 31, 2018 (UTC)
  • Please split up the first paragraph of Bio and chuck it under another subsection. Imperators II(Talk) 19:58, December 31, 2018 (UTC)
    • Could you clarify how much of the section that is and what info I should move? OtterSurf (talk) 20:21, December 31, 2018 (UTC)
      • Start by splitting up the very first paragraph of Bio into smaller paragraphs. Then put them into another subsection(s) as necessary so there's not just the single "Death" one. Imperators II(Talk) 20:28, December 31, 2018 (UTC)
  • Did Yomin Carr go by an alias while undercover? If so, I think we should try to mostly use that in the article instead. Imperators II(Talk) 20:28, December 31, 2018 (UTC)
    • Nope, the ExGal team knew him as Yomin Carr. OtterSurf (talk) 11:19, January 1, 2019 (UTC)
  • The Essential Reader's Companion mentions that "Carr destroys the station’s communications systems and proceeds to kill the ExGal scientists," which I believe constitutes an indirect mention of Breise, therefore necessitating the addition of the book to Sources with an {{Imo}} tag. Imperators II(Talk) 01:54, January 3, 2019 (UTC)
  • "dubious prestige" in intro is point-of-view, please revise. Imperators II(Talk) 01:54, January 3, 2019 (UTC)
    • Done. OtterSurf (talk) 09:49, January 3, 2019 (UTC)
      • "He was one of the first galactic citizens to encounter a Yuuzhan Vong advance agent, as well as one of the first to be killed by one" — I believe this whole sentence is factually inaccurate; this section of our own article on the Yuuzhan Vong is littered with examples that contradict this. (I can personally confirm that at least some of that info is true.) Imperators II(Talk) 15:37, January 3, 2019 (UTC)
  • First sentence of Bio needs context for ExGal-4 and Belkadan. Imperators II(Talk) 01:54, January 3, 2019 (UTC)
  • Saying Breise was a scientist is redundant to saying he was an astronomer. Imperators II(Talk) 01:55, January 3, 2019 (UTC)
  • The first paragraph of "Death" is overly long, see if you can split it into several smaller ones. Imperators II(Talk) 15:37, January 3, 2019 (UTC)
    • I've split the first part into the previous section. It ties in better there anyway. OtterSurf (talk) 19:43, January 3, 2019 (UTC)
Anil
  • Does Breise appear in the audiobook version of the novel? If so, audiofiles for the quotes can be added. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 08:03, January 1, 2019 (UTC)
    • No idea. OtterSurf (talk) 11:20, January 1, 2019 (UTC)
      • A friendly reminder that this one is still here. You can ask others for help if you can't find the audiobook yourself. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 12:11, January 3, 2019 (UTC)
        • I can confirm he does have lines, but I have no way of extracting anything. Do you know anyone I could ask? Doesn't seem fair to go bothering Clonehunter whenever we need audio files. OtterSurf (talk) 14:51, January 3, 2019 (UTC)
  • I think Yomin Carr is important enough to be mentioned by name in the intro. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 08:03, January 1, 2019 (UTC)
  • Duplicate references. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 08:03, January 1, 2019 (UTC)
    • Can't find those, sorry. OtterSurf (talk) 11:26, January 1, 2019 (UTC)
      • First two sections of the Biography and the Personality and traits have consecutive ref [2]s. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 23:09, January 1, 2019 (UTC)
      • If you're only using one reference for a paragraph, you only need one ref tag, at the end of the paragraph. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 23:42, January 1, 2019 (UTC)
  • Isn't there another quote available for the Biography section? TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 08:03, January 1, 2019 (UTC)
    • I'll rack my memory. Been a while since I read the novel. OtterSurf (talk) 11:21, January 1, 2019 (UTC)
    • Done. OtterSurf (talk) 10:36, January 2, 2019 (UTC)
      • Are there other quotes available for the other subsections of the Biography? It is OK if not, but you should check for quotes for every section when promoting an article for status. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 12:11, January 3, 2019 (UTC)
        • I don't own the novel anymore, which makes this harder, but luckily Google Books has been forthcoming. I've found the most relevant quote possible for every section. OtterSurf (talk) 15:36, January 3, 2019 (UTC)
  • I think the image in the Death section would be better at the right, so it wouldn't mess with the header for "Personality and traits." TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 08:03, January 1, 2019 (UTC)
  • Duplicate links for Yomin Carr. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 08:03, January 1, 2019 (UTC)
  • I think the article could use some more pipelinking, such as Galaxy/Legends for the second use of the word "galaxy" (aside from The galaxy/Legends), Listening post/Legends for the mentions of the exploratory base, Yuuzhan Vong War when mentioning the Vong thread, Imperial standard meter etc. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 08:03, January 1, 2019 (UTC)
  • The article body lacks context for Yuuzhan Vong. Something similar to the one in the intro should be enough. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 08:03, January 1, 2019 (UTC)
  • You need to identify ExGal as the Extragalactic Society at some point in the body. Everything in the intro also should appear in the body. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 23:42, January 1, 2019 (UTC)
  • Always call people by their last names unless they share their last name, like Leia Organa and Bail Organa. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 23:42, January 1, 2019 (UTC)
    • Done! I've used his full name in some areas. OtterSurf (talk) 10:40, January 2, 2019 (UTC)
  • During my search for audiofiles, I've read the sections of the novel that features Garth, and it occured to me that the characters shows much more personality that it is said in the article (occasional sarcastically talking etc.). I suggest you to re-read those sections and expand the Personality and traits section accordingly. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 01:56, January 4, 2019 (UTC)
  • As I said above, I've searched for audiobooks and actually found two. The first one (The New Jedi Order: Vector Prime audiobook (Random House Audio)) is actually an abridged version read by Anthony Heald of Random House Audio. It only contains one of the quotes (#2), so the rest of them are ripped from the unabridged The New Jedi Order: Vector Prime audiobook (Talking Book Publishers Inc.) read by Chuck Benson of Talking Book Publishers Inc. You now need to create pages for them to get rid of the redlinks. You can find info about the audiobooks from the following websites: 1 2 3 4 5 TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 01:56, January 4, 2019 (UTC)
    • Pages created. They might need a bit of beefing up, but they're okay for now. OtterSurf (talk) 10:21, January 4, 2019 (UTC)
QGJ
  • For the infobox death field, if you reword ref 1 to say that the book features "Garth Breise's death on Belkadan," you can use the same ref to source both the date and the place of death. That is the general practice nowadays to make that field less cumbersome with refs.
    • Done. OtterSurf (talk) 13:09, January 5, 2019 (UTC)
      • Remember that refs need to be fully linked and give full context, as if they were separate articles. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 09:32, January 10, 2019 (UTC)
  • Context missing for Belkadan in the intro.
  • Some context for Spacecaster too, please.
  • Instead of just pipelinking "cloaker," I'd prefer you to establish that Carr was disguised as a Human. A reader who is not familiar with NJO might be confused as to how Carr was not detected, especially if they look at his image.
  • P&T needs a paragraph break.
  • You can perhaps move his engineering skills into a "skills and abilities" section.
    • I don't think there's enough to fill a whole section. Plus it fits okay in the P+T. OtterSurf (talk) 13:05, January 5, 2019 (UTC)
  • One more image early on in the Bio would be nice. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 12:21, January 5, 2019 (UTC)
    • Done! I did originally go with Luke Skywalker on Belkadan, but I thought the image of ExGal-4 fit better. OtterSurf (talk) 13:17, January 5, 2019 (UTC)
Toprawa
  • For starters, I would like to see you reupload the "Two days" quote while editing out the narrative portion around the spoken lines. This is the standard we've adopted for other articles that have been using these audio files for quotes. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 23:55, February 2, 2019 (UTC)
    • As the uploader of those audio files, I have dealt with it. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 00:10, February 3, 2019 (UTC)
  • Just from the eye test, the intro looks a little short compared to the article body. Two intro sentences for three subsections (two of them rather large) just isn't enough. See if you can't double the size of the intro; two paragraphs of equal length would look good. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 00:21, February 3, 2019 (UTC)
    • I've given it some heft. OtterSurf (talk) 12:19, February 3, 2019 (UTC)
      • I still want to see more. All you did is add one sentence. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 06:09, February 4, 2019 (UTC)
        • Chunked it up a bit more. I think it sums up the article nicely. OtterSurf (talk) 18:49, February 5, 2019 (UTC)
  • Reviewing note: Try to tone down the use of semi-colons. They really just make for stilted, unnatural reading. Once in a while is fine, of course, but when you're sticking them in every paragraph, that's a bit much.
    • Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. OtterSurf (talk) 11:00, February 8, 2019 (UTC)
  • In the P/T, be careful about extrapolating single-instance events as if they're part of his regular personality. For example, if the only time we see him being "safety-conscious" is when he's climbing the tower, we don't necessarily know he was like that the rest of the time. Try to instead frame the P/T as he displayed these personality traits during the tower repair or whatever the case may be. Like, "While repairing the ExGal-4 communications tower, Breise was very safety-conscious..." etc. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 07:07, February 8, 2019 (UTC)
    • Done. OtterSurf (talk) 11:00, February 8, 2019 (UTC)
      • You've done a good job of this one. I just want to see you add a little bit somewhere about how he found his job monotonous. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 01:19, February 11, 2019 (UTC)
        • Done. OtterSurf (talk) 09:54, February 11, 2019 (UTC)
          • Ok, but that's not exactly what the Biography is saying. The Bio says he found the night shift to be monotonous, not astronomy itself. Which is it? Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 01:34, February 12, 2019 (UTC)
            • I'd say he found the whole job boring. I can't remember who thinks it but I know one of the team reflects on how excited they were to be doing this job only for it to fizzle out. I'll edit the article accordingly. OtterSurf (talk) 09:28, February 19, 2019 (UTC)
              • How can you add this to the article if you don't even know if the information is correct? You just said you can't remember who thought that, so how do you know it applies to this character? You're going to need to quote for me whatever passage from the book this is coming from so I can be assured it's accurate with respect to Garth Breise. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 00:24, February 20, 2019 (UTC)
                • I've linked it in to Breise talking about Yomin Carr eventually finding the job boring, i.e. "He'll get bored with it soon enough". OtterSurf (talk) 11:30, February 24, 2019 (UTC)
                • This point has lain idle for some time. Can we get it sorted now? OtterSurf (talk) 08:25, March 28, 2019 (UTC)
                  • This point has lain idle because I will admit I've become totally discouraged with your ability to resolve this objection and have put it on the back burner out of frustration. You didn't answer any of my questions/concerns in my post from 00:24 February 20, and thus I have no confidence whatsoever that anything you're saying is accurate. At this point, I feel like the only way for you to properly resolve this objection that gives me peace of mind is for you to come on IRC and answer my questions for me directly. You can tell me what time is best for you to sit down and discuss this. I will also leave this message on your talk page. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 17:13, May 4, 2019 (UTC)
                    • What questions are there to ask, exactly? I don't own the novel anymore, I can't remember exactly who thought it (I think it's Danni, but again I can't conclusively say without the novel) and there doesn't seem to be anyone else who's wanted to step in and assist here. Would it not be best if I just cut this information out of the article? We can always add it in at a later date if anyone can back it up properly. OtterSurf (talk) 18:14, May 4, 2019 (UTC)
  • The intro and the article body aren't totally syncing up on the details of Breise's colleagues' deaths. The intro says Carr murdered his colleagues, but the article body only says that Doole died as a result of Carr's bugs, which I don't know if I would even call murder. It's more like an indirect result of the introduction of the bugs, unless I'm missing something.
    • Done. OtterSurf (talk) 11:00, February 8, 2019 (UTC)
      • You didn't really resolve this objection. The point here is that there should never be information exclusive to the intro. Everything covered in the intro should also be covered in the article body. The Biography only says that one other person, Doole, died from Yomin Carr's actions, whereas the intro says many of the team members did. This is what needs to be rectified. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 00:32, February 9, 2019 (UTC)
        • Done. I know Cho Badeleg is missing but I thought I'd keep it limited to Belkadan. Bensin Tomri is an exception because he is stated to be a close friend of Garth. OtterSurf (talk) 21:58, February 9, 2019 (UTC)
          • Well, you're right that all of the expansion you've made to the end of that Bio paragraph to mention all of these other people is extraneous to this article subject. I don't mean to have you running around in circles with this objection, but I think the thing to do here is go back to how you originally had the end of the Biography worded and just remove the last sentence of the intro, which really isn't critical at all. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 22:40, February 9, 2019 (UTC)
  • For that matter, I don't like how the last Bio paragraph introduces "the beetle-borne bioweapon unleashed on Belkadan by Yomin Carr," as if we're supposed to know what this is already. This is never referenced previously in the article. We're only told that the beetles are to help with terraforming, which isn't synonymous with a bioweapon. I think you need to do a little clarification somewhere. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 07:13, February 8, 2019 (UTC)
  • Try to come up with a subsection title a little more compelling than just "Death." Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 07:33, February 8, 2019 (UTC)
  • I'd like to see the P/T avoid beginning two consecutive sentences with "Despite his/Despite this." Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 00:32, February 9, 2019 (UTC)
  • If I'm reading the final sentence of the intro correctly, would it be fair to modify it as "...and therefore sever its link to the outside"? Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 00:30, February 11, 2019 (UTC)
  • I don't know if my latest addition to the BTS can actually be sourced to that book or whether it needs to be referenced to ERC. Please check. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 01:19, February 11, 2019 (UTC)
    • The novel is listed as the first in the NJO there, so I'll add it in. OtterSurf (talk) 09:56, February 11, 2019 (UTC)
      • Tacking multiple reference notes onto the end of sentences is not ideal. We should instead be striving to place reference notes exactly on the sentence portions that they're attributing. Please note my change here. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 01:33, February 12, 2019 (UTC)

Comments

Vote to remove nomination (AC only)

  1. ACvote I'm starting this removal vote in response to the discourse above regarding my unresolved objection. The nominator openly admits he does not have the source and thus cannot respond to or properly address any of my concerns and questions related to my objection. He clearly understands the situation, which makes me wonder why he couldn't have acquired this readily available and inexpensive book at any point over the past several months. In my mind, his admission puts every detail of this article into question, and I feel there is simply no other practical way to proceed with this nomination than to remove it. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 18:58, May 4, 2019 (UTC)
  2. ACvote Per IRC discussion, it is utterly ridiculous to think this article was nominated without the writer having the source material. Tommy Imperial Emblem Macaroni 19:00, May 4, 2019 (UTC)
  3. ACvote Ayrehead02 (talk) 19:04, May 4, 2019 (UTC)