Wookieepedia:Featured article nominations/The Barsen'thor (second nomination)

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The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a Featured article nomination that was unsuccessful. Please do not modify it.

The Barsen'thor

  • Nominated by: QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 11:57, March 13, 2018 (UTC)
  • Nomination comments: Because I don't like leaving things unfinished.

(0 Inqs/3 Users/3 Total)

(Votes required: 3 Inq vote(s) required to reach minimum. Additional 1 user or 1 Inq vote required to pass.)

Support

Added it to Wookieepedia:WookieeProject The Old Republic's FAN section. Good work. Fan26 (Talk) 18:46, October 4, 2018 (UTC)
  1. Fan26 (Talk) 16:18, December 1, 2018 (UTC)
  2. Awesome work on the article. Tomotron Revanchist Sith (talk) 09:28, February 5, 2020 (UTC)
  3. UberSoldat93 (talk) 15:48, February 5, 2020 (UTC)

Object

Fan
  • No clue how this made it almost seven months without any objections or support votes. But I digress. At the bottom of the page, under I believe either "Skills and Abilities" or "Personality and traits", the following appears: "In addition to speaking Galactic Basic Standard, the Barsen'thor was versed in many languages of the galaxy. He could understand Dosh,[2] Gand,[23] Binary,[30] Nikto[37] Jawaese,[42] Shyriiwook,[51] Sullustese, Selkath,[59] Rakata[75] Esh-kha[77] and Mandaba.[89] In addition, the Barsen'thor was a skilled pilot, successfully performing many flight missions for the Coruscant Aegis under the callsign "Guardian."[4]" Does the instance of him speaking Sullestese and Selkath occur in the same scenario, therefore both are sourced to ref 59? Fan26 (Talk) 02:16, October 4, 2018 (UTC)
    • Correct, those two languages are featured in the same mission, hence why they are grouped under a single ref. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 06:19, October 4, 2018 (UTC)
  • "Around that time, a sickness known as the Dark Plague struck the Jedi Order once again, driving Jedi Masters across the galaxy insane" This might just be my feeling, but the way the sentence is phrased is like the Dark Plague was mentioned elsewhere in the article, though this is the first mention of it. Would you consider revising the sentence?
  • "The Jedi Master was still missing five years later when an alliance of various factions was formed against the Eternal Empire." Do you think the word "against" should link to Revolt against the Eternal Empire? Fan26 (Talk) 14:23, October 4, 2018 (UTC)
  • " The Children were unwitting deep-cover agents of the Empire who shared a Force connection with the leader of the Empire, the allegedly immortal Sith Emperor Vitiate himself. " I think "unwitting" should actually be "unwilling".
    • Unwitting: adj. Not knowing; unaware: an unwitting subject in an experiment. I think it better describes their position, don't you think? QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 16:35, October 4, 2018 (UTC)
      • Good point.
  • In the "Disappearance and Death" section, the tomb's caption reads "Barsen'thor's tomb on Chandrila". I think "The" should be added to the beginning of it, since it's a title and not a name. Fan26 (Talk) 14:51, October 4, 2018 (UTC)
    • Added. If you see such minor mistakes, you are more than welcome to fix them yourself. You don't have to ask the nominator's permission every time :) QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 16:35, October 4, 2018 (UTC)
    • That's good to know, thank you. Those were the last things I saw.Fan26 (Talk) 18:46, October 4, 2018 (UTC)
  • I realized that since the character was confirmed to be male, we know which voice it canonically has. Would it be possible to get audio for the quotes where 'he' speaks? Fan26 (Talk) 16:46, November 29, 2018 (UTC)
    • I'll see what I can do, though having audio files is not a requirement for status articles, merely a recommendation. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 09:12, November 30, 2018 (UTC)
      • I'm aware, it was just an afterthought. I'm going ahead and striking this-no reason to hold up the nom with this one thing. Fan26 (Talk) 16:17, December 1, 2018 (UTC)
Ecks Dee
  • The LG places {{otheruses}} above any header templates.
  • I understand you want to avoid repetition and vary between usages of Barsen'thor/the Jedi/the Consular, but it gets somewhat confusing in some parts of the intro as I'm not 100% sure to what something is referring. Example: "Learning an ancient Force ability called the shielding technique from the Noetikon devices, the Jedi traveled from planet to planet, using the technique to sever the sick Jedi Masters from the influence of Lord Vivicar, the Sith mastermind behind the plague." Seeing as you talk about Jedi Masters in the previous sentence, it's not inconceivable that "the Jedi traveled" refers to the Masters rather Barsen'thor.
    • Made some adjustments. Please take another look. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 08:27, October 8, 2018 (UTC)
  • "the Barsen'thor participated in the fight against the Children of the Emperor." Is there/should there be an article for this particular fight/crisis/whatever?
  • "The Children were unwitting deep-cover agents of the Empire who shared a Force connection with the leader of the Empire, the allegedly immortal Sith Emperor Vitiate himself. The Children had infiltrated deep within the ranks of the Republic, their presence masked by the power of the mysterious First Son." I feel like dedicating two whole sentences to context is a bit excessive when it comes to the intro. See if you could condense this a bit. 1358 (Talk) 21:36, October 7, 2018 (UTC)
  • I made some further tweaks in the intro, particularly trimming some context I found excessive. Please have a look and see if that's okay.
  • "During the Battle of Corellia, the Consular discovered that the First Son was in fact a sleeper persona implanted inside Jedi Master Syo Bakarn" I feel like it's a bit misleading to link Sleep/Legends here, as sleeper agents don't really have anything to do with the act of sleeping.
    • I might have gotten a little carried away while trying to improve overall linking in the article. Removed. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 07:54, October 11, 2018 (UTC)
  • Seeing as we know the exact dates for the resurgence of the Sith Empire and the Cold War, I think it'd be a good idea to put these in the early bio to establish some sort of timeframe for the reader.
  • Before I start with the rest of the bio, please keep the location of {{Main}} consistent. Right now it's below the quote template in some places and above in others. I don't think we have any policy on this, but personally I think it looks better placed above the quote template (think of it as a header template of sorts). 1358 (Talk) 19:13, October 9, 2018 (UTC)
  • Arrival: The paragraph that starts with "Par told the apprentice the information..." barely mentions the Barsen'thor and it feels like it's too much context. See if you can trim it some. 1358 (Talk) 17:59, December 8, 2018 (UTC)
    • Reworded to focus a bit more on the Barsen'thor. I don't think that the context in this paragraph can be completely cut, though. It's all kinda necessary, IMO. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 19:54, December 15, 2018 (UTC)
  • Defending the Forge: "the Consular deeply concentrated and used the machine to create a working lightsaber. Upon creating the lightsaber, he barely had time to test it before Raloch appeared" This feels a bit redundant, with the double mention of the lightsaber creation in close succession. 1358 (Talk) 19:47, April 26, 2019 (UTC)
  • Into the Black Sun's den: "Black Sun, a local criminal gang, had turned the cantina's back rooms into some sort of secret warehouse." This sentence is purely context and as such it feels a bit disconnected to the rest of the prose. See if you can integrate it better somehow.
    • Done.
  • Into the Black Sun's den: "wherein they met a Human Doctor called Maer." Why are we capitalizing "doctor" here? It's fine in the next sentence if the source material calls him "the Doctor", but in this sentence, I see no reason to capitalize it.
    • No, the source material does not specifically call him the Doctor, so I've decapitalized it.
  • Into the Black Sun's den: The paragraph that starts with "According to one of the patients" doesn't mention the subject of this article once. Please cut down on the excessive context. 1358 (Talk) 11:18, July 19, 2019 (UTC)
    • Cut down on some of the extraneous details. Please take a look. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 18:21, July 27, 2019 (UTC)
      • It still feels a bit excessive, to be honest. You have three consecutive sentences that are purely context. See if you can cut down even more and maybe merge the paragraph with the following one.
  • Learning the ritual: "The sickness had been encountered by the Jedi Order before only once." This sentence feels a bit abrupt and detached, see if you can somehow integrate it better with the rest of the paragraph; maybe merge it with the next sentence, which also has just one clause.
  • Learning the ritual: Before I go ahead and finish reviewing this section (and article), please go through it and cut down on some of the excessive context. In the first paragraph of this section, you have eight consecutive sentences before the article subject is mentioned once. This is a recurring issue in the article (as evidenced by my review), so you might want to go through the entire thing and see if you can trim excessive context. 1358 (Talk) 20:52, August 9, 2019 (UTC)
    • I've trimmed the unnecessary details throughout the bio. Everything left is necessary context, IMO, so I'd like to approach the rest on a case-by-case basis if you feel there are still extraneous info. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 15:17, August 18, 2019 (UTC)
Imp
  • Would it be possible to obtain more images? Some of the sections and subsections can look pretty intimidating for the reader. If further subsectioning is possible, that would help, too. Imperators II(Talk) 12:35, May 18, 2019 (UTC)
    • I've done some splitting of some of the larger sections, while adding a few images here and there. Please take another look. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 12:39, May 30, 2019 (UTC)
  • Is it not possible to utilize {{TORcite}} in refs 105 and 107, as well? Imperators II(Talk) 10:53, June 1, 2019 (UTC)
  • Ref 13: You're using the ref to source the date 3643 BBY for the Jedi Consular class, but the ref itself actually only dates the Jedi Knight, Smuggler, and Trooper classes to that year. Either the reference should be expanded to a manual ref note, or perhaps the dating template itself needs to be amended. And I'm not seeing why ref 13 is used upon its second instance in the article. Imperators II(Talk) 14:29, June 12, 2019 (UTC)
    • Took me a while to figure out how to tackle this, but I think I've figured out a way to reword/expand this. Hopefully, it's not too convoluted. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 09:58, June 19, 2019 (UTC)
  • "Gaining a trusted ally" — the quote's missing some punctuation. Is the omission coming from the source? Imperators II(Talk) 16:23, January 5, 2020 (UTC)
    • No, it's coming from my own derpiness. Fixed. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 16:49, January 6, 2020 (UTC)
UberSoldat
  • Article says he died. Is there a reason why the infobox is missing this information? UberSoldat93 (talk) 11:15, February 4, 2020 (UTC)
    • Based on current sources, we can only estimate his death date to have occured at some point between 3638 BBY (last confirmed appearance in Shadow of Revan) and 14 ABY (confirmed to be dead by that point due to the appearance of his tomb in Jedi Academy). To say that a character died at some point during an almost 4000 year-long period is just stating obvious information and is in no way useful to the reader. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 12:34, February 4, 2020 (UTC)
  • Same thing for his birth. A rough date would be appreciated. UberSoldat93 (talk) 12:06, February 4, 2020 (UTC)
    • Since we do not know how old the character is at the start of SWTOR's class story, best I can do regarding the birth date is "some years before 3643 BBY" or somesuch. And I'm also reluctant to add this, to be honest. If we first encounter a character in a story set in 3 ABY, obviously that character had to have been born at some point before 3 ABY. We don't have to state the obvious. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 12:34, February 4, 2020 (UTC)
      • Very well. I was only curious since I'm totally not familiar with TOR, as are many readers. UberSoldat93 (talk) 12:37, February 4, 2020 (UTC)
  • Is it possible to use a "canon" appearance for the infobox image? UberSoldat93 (talk) 12:49, February 4, 2020 (UTC)
    • There is no confirmed canon appearance, as the in-game avatar is customizable by the player. Even though the gender has been confirmed in a FFG book, there's still a ton of variations in terms of species and visual appearance. Images such as this are merely promotional images orbitrarily chosen to illustrate the character. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 12:59, February 4, 2020 (UTC)
Helping the Teral
  • "The Jedi asked to be made the House's delegate, but there were complications to that." This can be reworded better.
    • Reworded.
  • "They planned to form an alliance with the Organa through a marriage..." Is "the Organa" actually referring to House Organa? A little confusing here. UberSoldat93 (talk) 13:49, February 4, 2020 (UTC)
    • Yes, it was referring to the House. I've clarified that. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 08:57, February 5, 2020 (UTC)
Battle with the plaguemaster
  • "In fact, Vivicar was merely a vessel for the spirit of Morrhage..." A better sentence opener can be used here.
    • Reworded.
  • "...a rare and distinguished title that only two Jedi had held in the millennia before." Would be good to specify who the two Jedi are in the paragraph. UberSoldat93 (talk) 15:00, February 4, 2020 (UTC)
Revelation on Quesh
  • "Determined to rescue the scientists, Nadia unexpectedly for the Consular demonstrated that she was in fact Force-sensitive,..." Grammatical error here.
Restoring troop morale
  • "The captain seemed to survive anything the Coalition Forces could throw at him and seemed invincible. In addition to that, Valon had recently stolen a thermal bore device that could crack Hoth's ice shelf and could potentially destroy the Republic base." Parts of this can be reworded more formally.
Blaesus exposed
Battling the Order of Revan
  • The image in this section is moving the heading below. Try resizing it to alleviate this issue. UberSoldat93 (talk) 16:24, February 4, 2020 (UTC)
    • Moved the image, made it a bit smaller, and also evened out the length of paragraphs in this section. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 13:20, February 5, 2020 (UTC)
Ratts
  • Death is missing from the infobox. I've read your response to Shay's objection, and while I realize that there's no specific date for his death and that the assumption can be made he died during that period, the fact that he did indeed die should be presented in the infobox. There are individuals who live for immensely long times in the galaxy, either through natural or unnatural ways, so I don't see why stating the known information that this individual died before 14 ABY is unnecessary.
    • Added it in. The ref note turned out to be quite convoluted, but it's the best I could come up with, while trying to make it both comprehensive and concise. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 14:33, August 24, 2020 (UTC)
      • "Using comments and information from the game, the novel The Old Republic: Annihilation, as well as statements made by the game's lead designer Charles Boyd, that expansion can be dated to the year 3638 BBY." Is there a way to be a bit more specific here? What "comments and information" are you referring to? RattsT (talk) 21:51, August 24, 2020 (UTC)
        • If I were to elaborate on that, I would have to incorporate the entirety of {{TOR_updates|3.0}} template; and you can see this template in action by looking at ref 6 in Revan/Legends. I could do that and add this information to the death date ref, but then this already wordy ref note would become an essay in and of itself. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 09:17, August 25, 2020 (UTC)
          • Alright, the link to the Boyd screenshot in the ref should be enough, for brevity's sake. RattsT (talk) 06:44, August 30, 2020 (UTC)
  • The "Companions and romances" section of the BTS features two quotes. Per the Layout Guide, "a maximum of one quote is allowed only at the beginning of each section." RattsT (talk) 20:44, August 22, 2020 (UTC)
OOM
  • "[…] forged a temporarily coalition in order to fight the common threat of the Order of Revan.[100] Revan, a Sith Lord-turned Jedi during the Jedi Civil War three hundred years ago.[101]" The last sentence seems to be incomplete. Also, "three hundred years ago" cannot be sourced to KOTOR. - - -CIS roundel OOM 224 ༼༽{talk}༼༽ 08:09, August 30, 2020 (UTC)
    • Good catch. I seem to have chopped off the second part of the sentence during my effort to cut excessive context from the article. Fixed and provided a better source. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 13:23, August 30, 2020 (UTC)
  • Spelling inconsistency between Malachor III and Malachor Three. - - -CIS roundel OOM 224 ༼༽{talk}༼༽ 15:33, August 30, 2020 (UTC)
    • Oh wow, I competely missed this one. My apologies. I've now changed all instances to "Three," as that how it's spelled in the subtitles. It is indeed spelled as "Malachor III" in the TOR Encyclopedia, but I think we should go with what the actual game says, and move the actual Malachor article accordingly. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 13:50, September 21, 2020 (UTC)
      • Great. The first instance of "Malachor" should be changed to the full name though, and there's an instance of "Tusken" when the rest of the article mentions only "Sand People." - - -CIS roundel OOM 224 ༼༽{talk}༼༽ 16:14, September 21, 2020 (UTC)
        • The first instance is formatted like this on purpose, as the planet is not referred to as "Malachor Three" at that point in the storyline yet. In fact, it's not even established as a planet; Cin Tykan only utters the line "Malachor was dark" during his mad ramblings, so the Barsen'thor doesn't know what specific place he's talking about yet. I've changed the wording a bit to reflect that. Also fixed the one "Tusken" instance. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 06:46, September 22, 2020 (UTC)
  • "[…]the Empire had sent the commando squad to capture the Jedi and lure out the pirate. The Jedi Master healed the wounded engineer and let him go." Jumps from the engineer's revelation to him being healed by the Barsen'thor. Please reword the sentences so that the two clauses are presented clearly.
    • Addressed.
  • "After defeating the pirates inside the scavenger camp and killing their leader.[65]" This seems to be incomplete.
    • Addressed.
  • "Around that time, Fess—who had at the time been undergoing the shko-yagu, a ritual signifying his transition over the halfway point of his life—had received a message from Svaal, the hunter they had met on Tatooine, regarding a potential prosperous hunt on Alderaan, and he asked the Scorekeeper's Herald to accompany him." The sentence is too long, and "time" is used twice in a row. - - -OOM 224 ༼༽{talk}༼༽ 22:06, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
    • Addressed. Sorry for taking so long to respond to these. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 16:22, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
  • No worries. It's worth mentioning in the BTS that the Barsen'thor has his own music track, titled "Peace, The Jedi Consular." The track could just be pipelinked to this soundtrack page. - - -OOM 224 ༼༽{talk}༼༽ 16:37, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
  • "True to his word, Tark had returned to Tython to spend the rest of his days in exile." Tark's message doesn't say he would spend the rest of his days in exile, only that he returned to Tython. Also, I think it's worth mentioning what Tark said to the Jedi Consular.
    • After Vivicar is redeemed, he says to the Jedi Consular that he intends to "come home" and to "find peace" in the "hidden places" on Tython. Afterward, he sends a message titled "Coming Home," where he talks about being on Tython. When viewed in conjunction, I would argue that his original statement and his post-mission mail can be clearly interpreted as him staying on Tython in exile. I've added Tark's advice to the Barsen'thor; that part was originally in the article, but I later removed it when cleaning up the article from unnecessary context. If you feel it's necessary, I don't mind bringing it back. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 09:48, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
      • I see. That makes sense regarding Tark's exile, though I still find him remaining in exile for "the rest of his days" being speculative. For Tark's advice, the part you've just added is enough. - - -OOM 224 ༼༽{talk}༼༽ 17:06, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
  • It's also worth mentioning that the Fortitude was located in the "distant Outer Rim."
  • The article could use information on the Rift Alliance members' initial opinions on the Consular, which they share aboard the ship just after the player accepts the mission to Balmorra. I have screenshots of the above three objections that I could send to you via Discord, but I could also provide quotes here if you like. - - -OOM 224 ༼༽{talk}༼༽ 15:41, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
    • Do you mean some random ambient dialogue spoken aboard the ship? I don't think I noticed anything worth adding from such dialogue during my playthroughs. I'm not on Discord, so could you share the info you are talking about on my talk page? QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 09:48, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
      • Sure. Striking here in the meantime. - - -OOM 224 ༼༽{talk}༼༽ 17:06, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
        • I've incorporated your suggested info into the article now. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 09:26, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Winterz
  • This should have french/german voice actors for both male/female in the expansions. GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Winterz (talk) 18:34, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
    • Nevermind. GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Winterz (talk) 19:28, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
Vergence
Tommy
  • Redirect.
    • Fixed.
  • Image formatting: the format "[[File:filename.extension|thumb|left/right|size" should be used. Several images are missing one or more of these parameters.
    • Most of those were in the "Relationships" section, where using non-thumbnail versions was generally accepted in the past. Besides those, there was only one other instance with the missing image alignment parameter that I found. I have changed all of those.
  • Some full-sentence image captions missing punctuation, and vice versa.
    • Fixed the two instances that I was able to find.
  • When linking to files, underscores should be used instead of spaces. Tommy-Macaroni 20:45, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
    • Fixed the one instance of that, which was linked in a template. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 07:50, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
    • I no longer wish to maintain this nomination. In order to not waste your time reviewing this any further, I would like to ask this to be taken down. Same with Jaden Korr. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 07:50, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Comments

  • Issues from the previous nomination have been addressed. Paragraph size has been significantly reduced, and some long sections have been split up. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 11:57, March 13, 2018 (UTC)
  • Closing per nominator request (above). Tommy-Macaroni 08:41, 18 March 2021 (UTC)