Wookieepedia:Featured article nominations/Battle of the Forge

< Wookieepedia:Featured article nominations
The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a featured article nomination that was successful. Please do not modify it.

Battle of the Forge

  • Nominated by: Cade Calrayn GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit 02:38, June 3, 2012 (UTC)
  • Nomination comments: My first FAN! Fitting that it's the finale of the Tython storyline... now to get the rest of Project Hero's Tython stuff up to status.

(3 Inqs/4 Users/7 Total)

Support

  1. Nice work on a major event from a complicated source! ~SavageBOB sig 11:19, June 6, 2012 (UTC)
  2. Y'know, since TOR has dropped to $19.99 on Amazon, I think I might give it a try. Nice article! :D Plagueis327 20:41, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
  3. Exiled Jedi Oldrepublic crest (Greetings) 02:24, July 6, 2012 (UTC)
  4. It's made even more pointless because you can just change the color to whatever later. NaruHina Talk Anakinsolo 03:18, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
  5. Inqvote IFYLOFD (Floyd's crib) 01:00, July 24, 2012 (UTC)
  6. Inqvote Cavalier OneFarStar(Squadron channel) 10:29, August 2, 2012 (UTC)
  7. Inqvote CC7567 (talk) 02:37, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Object

From the desk of Atarumaster88

Savaged…
  • Just a few preliminary objections for the moment. First off, should this be "Duel at Vur Tepe" rather than "Duel at the Forge?" As far as I can tell, the place is never referred to as Vur Tepe in the game, and that name had fallen into disuse by the time of the events discussed in the article. Ancient names are all well and good, but when they're not used for centuries, we tend to prefer later names, at least with characters. Seems the same should apply here?
    • Yeah.
  • Be sure to use the {{Gamemechanics}} and {{GameLSmechanics}} where necessary. I'll have more once these are addressed. ~Savage BOB sig 11:23, June 3, 2012 (UTC)
    • Done.
      • Still needs an Endgame template somewhere, though. ~SavageBOB sig 11:51, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
  • Moar! We can't call the Padawan "unknown" since, presumably, they were not unknown in-universe.
    • Done.
  • Seems odd to call them "the native Flesh Raiders of the Jedi Order's homeworld Tython." The Flesh Raiders were there first, and the Jedi came later, so maybe add an "adopted" in there for the Jedi or something?
    • Done.
  • I think you need to cite a non-TOR source for the Je'daii stuff, since it's never mentioned in-game.
    • Dawn of the Jedi. Done.
  • Be sure to link the PC Padawan upon first mention in the body.
    • Done.
  • Try to position images so they don't interfere with quotes when possible, usually (if left-justified) by moving them below the quote.
    • Better?
  • Since almost half of this article is about things other than the duel between the Padawan and Morr, would it be more appropriate to title it "Battle at..." ? I mean, there are lots of Flesh Raiders being killed too. If you really just want to focus on the duel, I think there's way too much lead-up material here for that, personally. More of the article deals with the buildup to the duel than the duel itself.
    • I moved it to "Battle of the Forge", because you're right - it really is a battle that spans from Kalikori to the Forge.
  • If you want to keep the Je'daii stuff, I think it's important to give context on how they differ from the Jedi, especially in the phrase, "used by the Je'daii and the Jedi..."
    • Done.
  • Where do you get the bit about T7 killing the bodyguards? Can't the player do that him- or herself if desired? I think I did, but I could be misremembering.
    • Bah. Authorial/player creative license. Tried to make it less of a video game, but I see the point.
      • It's still assumed that T7 is attacking the bodyguards when this is highly variable depending on player style. I know that I killed the two bodyguards first and then attacked Morr, and T7 attacks whomever I'm attacking. Perhaps just change it to "with the aid of T7, the Padawan defeated Morr's bodyguards and engaged in a duel..." or some such? ~SavageBOB sig 11:51, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
        • Ah, missed that part. Fixed it.
  • I think the two bodyguards could conceivably get articles, since they're not just cannon-fodder enemies.
    • Eh.... they're just titled "Flesh Raider Adept Bodyguards". Plus, I have no pictures of them.
      • I won't object on this, but I will likely create articles for them when I get around to expanding Flesh Raider, so the links will get added sooner or later. The benchmark I use is whether a game enemy is 1) named as a unique individual (like the Flesh Raider Warmaster) or 2) doesn't respawn once defeated (like the Flesh Raider Bladewielder) and isn't randomly generated by the game (ilke in certain games). If either of those first two is true, and the last one is as well, they deserve an article in my book. ~SavageBOB sig 11:51, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
  • I think the bit you have in the quote, about the Padawan being the weapon Morr was supposed to forge, is important and should be mentioned in the body as well.
    • Done.
  • "misguided" is POV, technically.
    • Well, Din himself says "misguided", but okay.
      • Then it's Din's POV. ;P But struck. ~SavageBOB sig 11:51, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
  • As a non-sentient species, should Jurgoran be capitalized?
    • I don't know. TOR's kind of trigger-happy when it comes to capitalizing stuff.
      • I've noticed TOR has two different practices: when an enemy or place or whatever is featured on the user interface (like the minimal or the target window), all the first letters get capitalized. However, in the codex and in the game dialogue, the same entity is often written sentence-case instead. In such cases, I think we should probably follow the codex and dialogue instead of the UI. That said, is there a Jurgoran codex entry? That might clear things up. ~SavageBOB sig 11:51, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
        • Jurgoran codex has it as "jurgoran". Fixed.
  • Is Tao'ven turning herself in the canon outcome? I think in my game, I forgave her and still got light side points, but I can't remember if she turns herself in anyway.
    • If you forgive her and ask her to learn from her mistakes, (the maximum light side options), in the Council meeting Din states that she has turned herself over to the Order. Shan then asks you what you think should happen.
  • Try to go back through the events you've described and write in Bengel Morr and the Flesh Raider's side of things. As it stands, you've got a good account of the events, but it's one-sided, only from the Jedi POV. Read between the lines and rather than telling us what Morr and his army is up to as the Jedi discovered it, read backward in the timeline and just tell us in the article that "meanwhile, Morr captured Din and brought him to the Forge" or whatever.
    • Hmmm... It looks much better now with that stuff, I think.
      • Maybe make one more pass? We're still learning about the Kalikori betrayal at the same time as the Padawan, when we should be getting that stuff from the other side's POV too. And should we learn about Morr's motives when we first learn about this activities on Tython, rather than when the Padawan confronts him? I mean, keep the bit about the Padawan learning about the motives at that point, but the omniscient POV of the article should probably say what he's up to much earlier. ~SavageBOB sig 11:51, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
        • Better?
  • Try to rewrite the BTS so that it's in chronological order. The stuff with the Twi'leks comes before the stuff with Bengel Morr, for instance.
    • Done. I'll fix the rest tomorrow. Cade Calrayn GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit 04:44, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
  • Is it possible to Quick Travel away from the Forge and avoid the Forge Guardian?
    • Yes. Coward :P Cade Calrayn GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit 15:35, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
      • That bit needs to be enclosed in "Gamemechanics" templates then for cowards like me! :) In other words, yes, we should assume that the Jedi kills the thing, but we shouldn't put that bit in "Light side" template, since it's not a light or dark option; it' simply a "100% game completion" option. ~SavageBOB sig 11:51, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
        • Done.

That's it. Nice work! ~SavageBOB sig 11:55, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

  • OK, just a bit more. I think the Sacking of Coruscant needs a bit of context in the lead and body. Can you just say who sacked it and mention that Morr was at the Temple when destroyed? That would make the mention of that bit a little more relevant.
    • Done.
  • Be sure that all paragraphs have a source citation at the end. The one about Morr training the Flesh Raiders to be more aggressive is currently missing one.
    • Done.
  • Similarly, the bit about the Padawan destroying the Flesh Raider camp in Kaleth is currently being sourced to Dawn of the Jedi.
    • Done.
  • The bit about Morr and the Flesh Raiders making their way through Tythos Ridge is currently being sourced to the Codex. Is this correct?
    • Well, there are two routes you can take to reach the waterfall path, which is the only route into Vur Tepe. The first one is the Elarian Trail from Kalikori, which goes past the Jedi Temple, Elarian Outpost, the entrance to Kaleth, and then Elarian Outpost again. So I rather doubt that Morr took the route past the Jedi. And the Tythos Ridge codex talks about how it was lush and fertile before the Flesh Raiders, and one of the paths in the Tythos Ridge leads to one side of the Tythos River Valley, so all Morr would have had to do is cross the river and climb up the path to the waterfall past some horranth. I'm pretty sure Morr took the route through Flesh Raider territory, since he commanded them. And it's faster that way.
      • That's all fine, but my point is that the codes says nothing about the events of the game per se, so you need a second source citation for the fact that Morr goes to the Forge. ~SavageBOB sig 01:08, June 6, 2012 (UTC)
        • Fixed.
  • The bit about Padawans using the Forge to build their lightsabers is currently sourced to Dawn of the Jedi.
    • Woops. It's the Forge codex.
  • Is killing the Grand Chieftain optional? I think so, but I can't remember off the top of my head.
    • Okay, that's another thing. Keshk blocks the way to the two tunnels to the Forge (one of which the Consular uses, and the other the Knight uses). He can be snuck past, but it's not easy, and I think it makes more sense if you fight him. The Consular's story isn't about the Flesh Raiders, and the Knight is. Since Morr commands the Flesh Raiders, Keshk is his subordinate, and it's a reasonable explanation for the Flesh Raiders' presence at Vur Tepe to say that Morr was marshaling them there. And if he doesn't want the Padawan to follow him, why wouldn't he instruct his subordinate—who he passes on the way to the Forge—to stop the Padawan from coming that way? He isn't actually part of any quests, but, personally I think defeating Keshk fits better into the Knight storyline. Cade Calrayn GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit 15:09, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
      • Well, two thoughts. First, you should perhaps change it to "got past Kesh" instead of assuming the knight defeats him. As you say, the Consular has to face him too, so I don't think it's fair to assume the Jedi Knight kills him. Second, it's feasible to sneak past him, now? FOr that reason, just say, "got past" and explain the ambiguity in the BTS. ~SavageBOB sig 01:08, June 6, 2012 (UTC)
  • The first paragraph of "Aftermath" needs a source citation. ~SavageBOB sig 11:52, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
    • Done.
501st
  • The "youmay" does not give a link to the other duel. 501st dogma(talk) 19:48, June 3, 2012 (UTC)
  • You need a conjecture template.
    • Done.
  • Since you moved the page to "Battel of the Forge", you probally don't need the youmay. 501st dogma(talk) 12:00, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
Exiled Jedi
  • "Defeating the jurgoran—called the "Forge Guardian"—is an optional bonus quest, but the player must either kill it or be defeated, at which point they are forced to teleport back to the Temple's medcenter." I just played the quest tonight and I was defeated, but I teleported back to the closest medcenter not the Temple medcenter. I will review the article in full when I have the time.--Exiled Jedi Oldrepublic crest (Greetings) 05:05, June 22, 2012 (UTC)
    • Yeah, fixed.
  • When the Padawan gets knocked out by the Twi'leks I seem to remember the shot sounding kind of like a dart, are you sure it was a stun bolt?
    • Not really, so I changed it to "was knocked out from behind". The sentence got reworked too.
  • For the "A slumbering beast awakened" section I think you should get the quote your character says after you build your lightsaber. The one about it being a light in the darkness or something along those lines.
    • Good idea. Done.
  • Could you make it clearer why Keshk is mentioned in the BTS? I'm guessing that he can be fought before reaching the Forge, but I can't tell.
    • Yeah, he's right at the end of the ruins. Done.
  • Good job on this article, from what I've played of each of the classes I think that the Jedi Knight's story has been the best.--Exiled Jedi Oldrepublic crest (Greetings) 18:32, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
    • Thanks. Me too! Cade Calrayn GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit 18:52, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
Rubedo
  • "The Order had recently discovered that the former Padawan of Human Jedi Master Orgus Din, the Nautolan Bengel Morr—who had vanished during the Sacking of Coruscant over ten years ago—was the mastermind behind the Flesh Raiders' invasion." This is a run-on sentence. You can't nest the "vanishing" comment like that. It leaves the appositive that names him unresolved, without a comma or full stop at the end.
    • No problem.
  • "Morr and his Human apprentice Callef—who had been killed by Din's current Padawan when the Nautolan's apprentice had led a Flesh Raider invasion force into the Tythonian Gnarls—were attempting to destroy the Jedi Order, which Morr saw as weak…" This is of the same vein. Saying his name like that requires an appositive: "His Human apprentice, Caleph, blah blah blah," which is screwed up by the dashes. You should probably just introduce Caleph's death in a separate sentence. If the two were working together and his death is really noteable to this particular battle, you can find another way to introduce him.
    • I completely reworked the prelude to give a better explanation of the war, and made the grammar and sentences better. How's it look?
  • Articles on Scout Chief and Grand Cheiftain? They sound like titles.
    • Done.
  • This is a comment: Mind double "and"s. A sentence can have two "and"s in a sentence like "Cade and Bob skipped alongside Trak and Naru", where there are two groupings and the max on that is three groups. Other than that, it's generally an indicator of a run-on sentence. I corrected a lot of triple and quadruples going through this. NaruHina Talk Anakinsolo 01:44, July 6, 2012 (UTC)
    • Sure.
  • I found this video on YouTube of a dark-sider getting a green crystal. The video itself is from the Beta, but in the comments they say it seurvived into the final product. Apparently, it has to do with letting Morr go instead of turning him in. Please look into it. NaruHina Talk Anakinsolo 06:47, July 8, 2012 (UTC)
    • Huh. I forgot about that. Yeah, if you let him go, he gives you a green crystal, and you have the option of making a "Dark Jedi Lightsaber". Added to the BTS. Cade Calrayn GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit 16:30, July 9, 2012 (UTC)
Objections, objections…
  • Might want to take care of reference 11 in the "War on Tython" section.—Jedi Kasra (comlink) 20:04, July 9, 2012 (UTC)
Floyd
  • Is the fight with the jurgoran really a part of the battle itself? It seems to me that the battle was between the Padawan and Morr, and the jurgoran was just the Padawan fighting a beast after it was over. Seems to me that it should be mentioned in the Aftermath section, not as part of the battle.
  • "An astromech droid that the apprentice had rescued earlier in the conflict, T7-O1," You already mentioned this earlier.
  • IFYLOFD (Floyd's crib) 00:41, July 24, 2012 (UTC)
Attack of the Clone
  • Some of these objections are things that I would normally fix in my copy-edit, but since this is your first FAN, I think you would benefit from correcting these yourself.
  • Please note that the rule of linking upon the first instance applies to the infobox, too, in addition to the intro and body. Please check to make sure linking is good in the infobox.
    • Done.
  • Please take note of Forum:CT:Punctuation in image captions.
    • Done.
      • The majority of the image captions are still sentences, yet lack punctuation. Please take another look. CC7567 (talk) 20:05, August 3, 2012 (UTC)
        • Done, I believe.
  • I don't usually object to this, but the article appears a little image-heavy, mainly for the "Race to the Forge" section. Can either of those images be moved around or possibly removed? This is more of an aesthetic, non-policy issue, but the primary focus of the article should be the writing, not including an image about every single topic. If one of the images isn't as important, I would recommend removing it.
    • I removed the waterfall pic. Cade Calrayn GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit 17:15, August 3, 2012 (UTC)
  • Once you've addressed these preliminaries, I'll begin reviewing. CC7567 (talk) 21:48, August 2, 2012 (UTC)
  • In battle infoboxes, † is commonly used only to refer to specific individuals or forces that perish, not an entire group like the Tythonian War Droids.
    • Fixed.
      • As a note, if there's only one bullet in a certain infobox field (in this case, "Orgus Din's apprentice" for commanders1), there's no need to bullet the info. CC7567 (talk) 01:34, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
  • The date is not mentioned in the intro, and while it isn't always necessary, saying "ten years earlier" in the intro doesn't make much sense because we don't know the date until the body comes along. Please clarify.
    • Added.
      • Is it 3,643 BBY or "around" 3,643 BBY? Everywhere but the infobox says the latter, but the infobox says the former. CC7567 (talk) 01:34, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
        • Fixed.
  • As with Skirmish at the ancient shrine: what's going on with the infobox type? You call the event a "battle," yet the duel infobox is being used. I would highly recommend that you check your other current nominations for consistency as well.
    • Ah, CC, this one actually has a semi-valid excuse. Originally, this article was at Duel at the Forge (Bengel Morr) before Bob made me realize that it's not just a duel. Still, I'll fix it. Should have seen it.
      • Noted. Thanks for clearing that up. CC7567 (talk) 01:34, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
  • "raced through the Flesh Raider-controlled territory": please check WP:DASH and correct.
    • Ah, the endash. Dang.
  • I would recommend referring to "T7" by his full designation throughout the article, as it helps with formality.
    • Well, the Knight themself (... >_<) refers to him as Teeseven, but... I understand.
  • It's not very clear in the intro that the villagers actually capture Din and deliver him to Morr, or why it's necessary to "awaken" him. Please clarify.
    • Woops. Fixed.
  • I'm encountering some more underlinking in the Prelude, so please check the rest of the body for linking before I continue reviewing. CC7567 (talk) 20:05, August 3, 2012 (UTC)
    • There, I think. Any more that you can see? Cade Calrayn GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit 21:00, August 3, 2012 (UTC)
      • Please make sure not to link to disambig pages in the mainspace, though—temple is one of them. I would recommend checking the other links as well. CC7567 (talk) 01:35, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
        • Fixed, I believe.
  • The Prelude is looking a bit long, so I wanted to check: is everything there relevant to the battle? The Prelude should only detail what is directly related to what happens in the battle. No need to change as long as you're comfortable with it; I just want to make sure you're confident that all of the detail is necessary.
    • I do believe it is necessary, as it gives needed context to the battle. The Betrayal section explains the actual events preceding the battle, and the War on Tython and the other section show the uprising from both the perspectives of both the Jedi and Morr. I do understand your point, though.
  • "Morr and his bodyguards": do you mean that Flesh Raiders were his bodyguards? Please clarify.
    • Done.
  • Regarding the "Race to the Force" quote: please see Forum:CT:Clarifying use of quote templates. {{Quote}} should still be used for two-speaker dialogue.
    • Hrm.. I believe that was originally a longer quote on another page. Fixed.
  • "Flesh Raider-controlled Tythos Ridge": dash check, please.
    • Endash, done.
  • "the apprentice witnessed Morr grip Orgus Din with the Force and throw him against the stone steps." Is this where Din is knocked unconscious? I didn't realize that he was unconscious until you mention that the Padawan woke him up much later in the section.
  • Seeing as there are two Jedi Temples mentioned in the article, it sounds like it would be necessary to specify which temple you're referring to each time. Please go through the article and check to make sure the reader knows which temple you're talking about.
    • Ah, the Tython and Coruscant ones. Good point.
      • After you mention the Sacking of Coruscant and the destruction of that Jedi Temple, are all the following "Temple" mentions referring to the one on Tython? If so, it would be worth mentioning in the Prelude that the Jedi relocated to Tython and its Temple, as that'll save a lot of confusion for the reader. CC7567 (talk) 19:14, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
        • Good point. Done.
  • "the Padawan met with the Council": what Council?
    • Woops, Jedi Council.
  • A question about the categories: should Category:Battles of the Flesh Raider uprising be a subcat of Category:Conflicts of the Cold War? That would justify having both listed as categories, though if the Flesh Raider one becomes a subcat, it would be necessary to remove the parent category (the Cold War one).
    • Sorry about that. Some insistent anon doesn't understand about categories and subcategories, and has been adding the Cold War category to a bunch of my articles. I thought I fixed all of them.
  • Pretty good in terms of linking, though I noticed some overlinking in addition to underlinking. I would recommend simply checking my copy-edit to see the links that were missing and those that weren't necessary, as well as some minor grammar/spelling errors. The "search" function on your browser really helps in rooting out the exact spot where a link needs to be; I use Firefox, and it comes in handy a lot. (It also has a built-in spellcheck that I use a lot.) As a note, please remember to link to Wikipedia's MMORPG article when referring to MMORPGS, instead of the video game page. CC7567 (talk) 07:01, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
    • It was linked to video game? Weird. I could have sworn I always use the Wikipedia link. Cade Calrayn GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit 16:22, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

Comments

Approved as a Featured article by Inquisitorius 02:37, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

  • Just a heads up that traditionally, the game mechanics templates have been used only to surround the bit of a game that is optional. Personally, I have no problem with the way you've done things here, since its aesthetically scores better than the way we usually do things. But the way we do usually do things is to only put templates around the truly optional stuff. So, for instance, the part about the jugoran attacking would not be in templates, but the bit about killing it would. For the light side stuff, going by the way previous articles have worked, the templates would only go around the precise light side choice, not around the material that remains the same for dark side or light side players. Again, I ilke the way you've handled things here, but I just wanted to give you a heads up in case someone else asks you to change things. ~SavageBOB sig 01:23, June 6, 2012 (UTC)
    • After some thought, I've changed my mind on this, despite being so adamant on the Clantaani FAN last year. I made this edit as a show of good faith (a reversion back to the way you originally had it). The BTS explanation is sufficient, I think. :) Menkooroo 17:53, June 21, 2012 (UTC)
      • Ha! Yeah, I noticed that and almost reverted you as possibly being mistaken before I thought to check here first. :) ~SavageBOB sig 20:12, June 21, 2012 (UTC)