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This article was nominated for deletion on 03:16, 14 May 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

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I was under the distinct impression that the 'True Sith' were the Sith Empire around the time of the Great Hyperspace War, who in turn were descended from the Sith species, who are the true Sith. I have played through KOTOR II several times, and never is the age of the Academy or of the true Sith mentioned by Kreia or anybody else. This should probably be a redirect to either Old Sith Empire or Sith (species) Lord Patrick 10:34, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

  • True Sith is mostly a load of fanwanking. Some big, mysterious threat that holds out in the Unknown Regions throughout the entire timeline. Not gonna happen. - Kwenn 11:21, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Why was this moved? Is there any source for the new information written in it? Charlii 17:44, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Some newbie adding nonsense. Kuralyov 17:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
      • Everything in the article comes from KOTOR 2. Just to be safe, though, I added a conjecture tag.SithPower 08:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Where are statements like this: "According to Kreia, the so-called "True Sith" were millennia older than the Old Sith Empire" coming from? Are people just writing this stuff because Kreia said that the 'True Sith' were "tens of thousands" of years old? It should be noted that Kreia also said that the Mandalorian Wars began "little less than a decade" before the events of KOTOR2 which took place in 3951 BBY. In fact, the mandalorian wars began sometime between 3976 BBY and 3963 BBY. Soooo, obviously the old hag is none too good with dates. Or more accurately, Obsidian did not do their research properly. The "True Sith" could not have come before the Sith Empire for the simple reason that the term "Sith" did not come to be synonymous with 'dark side user' until the dark Jedi conquered the Sith species in 7000 BBY. The "true sith" are obviously just the remnants of the sith empire...--Sentry 08:42, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
          • Yes, I was wondering this too. Kreia never compares the "True Sith" to the Old Sith Empire to begin with, she only mentions Revan's Sith Empire, saying that they were "untru" Sith. I'm rRemoving it until someone comes up with quotes real quick.
            • I for one am certain that the "True Sith" was supposed to be an offshot of the old Sith Empire, but that can't be true after the NEC retconed that empire to have been founded about 6.900 BBY. If I remember correctly, the "tens of thousand years" for the age of the Trayus Academy is stated in the OOU loading screen history info. And, since author intent isn't canon, we can only work with the info we've been given and say that there were some sort of Sith running around long before the old empire. That also works very well with the fact that we have other troublesome Sith, timeline-wise, for example Adas and the Killik Sith Lord. Charlii 20:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
              • Well, those of you who has played KotOR II knows that when the screen is loading, small "messages" will appear at the bottom of the screen. Once, I saw one that read "True Sith died out centuries ago. Sith of this era is an organization, not a species." Does this not in fact suggest that "True Sith" is just another name for the Sith species? —Unsigned comment by Kaxs (talk • contribs)

Kreia does indeed say that the True Sith are the sith of the Old Sith Empire. This happens when she tells the future of Korriban DarkLord

  • Possible explanation: As the article says, it's a nickname. They could have predated the Sith, even the word Sith, yet they were some dark side fraction, later nicknamed Sith, in lack of a better word, and the word True is there to distinguish them. so the real problem is not their existence, but the name. I see no continuity problem here MoffRebus 11:04, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Yes there was such a sect of dark Jedi. They were called the Legions of Lettow, but they were not Sith. In fact, there is no evidence whatsoever that the "True Sith" was a nickname. The only reason the term 'true' would be used by Kreia, in such a case, would be to imply a connection to the ancient Sith/Dark Jedi hybrid species of the sith empire.--Sentry 22:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Let me point out that "[...]the term "Sith" did not come to be synonymous with 'dark side user' until the exiled dark Jedi conquered the Sith species" is actually pure fanon. What we know is that the Sith species had a natural force-sesitivity. It's not more unthinkable than anything else to beleive that the primitive people that the Dark Jedi conqoured were the decendandts of a powerfull, space-faring race. Charlii 11:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Actually, it was just bad wording on my part. I'll change it to this:
"Many fans argue that the "True Sith", logically, could not have come before the Sith Empire for the simple reason that the term "Sith" did not come to be generally synonymous with a unified sect of "dark side users" until the exiled dark Jedi conquered the Sith species in 7000 BBY. Before that time period, canonical sources implied that the Sith were a primitive, if highly Force sensitive, species that dabbled in what they called 'sorcery' or 'magic'. Of course, it is possible that the primitive Sith were the decedents of a powerful, space-faring race of dark Jedi, but at this point in time, there is not evidence for such a presumption except for the existence of Adas, a Sith Lord who was said to have lived more than twenty thousand years before the Dark Jedi made contact with the natives of Korriban and Ziost."

Happy?--Sentry 22:23, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

The article has some confusing talk about the origins of the Sith name, and points out Adas as one quirk. I'd like to ask, if it has been confirmed that Adas was called Sith (Lord) in his time, or was the title given to him in later ages? If so, it would verify or nullify any point he has in the argument. --213.216.199.18 02:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

  • I believe it was in Tales of the Jedi that he was refered to as a Sith Lord. SithPower 07:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

So, the True Sith, are the Sith

Am I correct in assuming that with the recent article, along with Adas, the true sith are also retconned as being actual Sith in species, rather than some other shadowy group? --Sauron18 02:49 23 June 2006 (CTD)

  • That's what I've been saying all the time ;) I havn't read the article but it seems like it implies that the Sith did not have space travel when Adas ruled, which means there are still pieces left out of the puzzle. Charlii 08:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Actually, they did space travel. It says that after Adas' death the Sith weren't as unified as before, so they relocated to Ziost (they were originally in Korriban). This pretty much tells me that they did have space travel. Plus, they met the Rakata and defeated them, they could've taken some of their hyperspace technology. --Sauron18 03:25 23 June 2006 (CTD)
      • I also heard that there are a mention that Darth Ruin encountered old Sith, which would most likely have been the "True Sith" Kreia spoke about. Is this true? Charlii 08:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Mmm, not exactly, he unified some Sith Clans, but if I recall correctly they weren't Sith in species but in teaching, there's a whole connection from the very first Sith to the very last in the article, but it's a bit complicated since not every single thing is in chronological order. --Sauron18 03:33 23 June 2006 (CTD)
          • So I guess this article can be merged to Sith (species)? - Sikon [Talk] 09:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
            • Not really, this deals mainly with the splinter that went into hiding in the Unknown Regions. And besides, "Hutt Empire" is separate from "Hutt". Having one page for the species and others for their impact on galactic history is nothing strange. Charlii 09:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • It is my beleaf that the True Sith and the Sith Species are one. I venture to also make the conjecture that the Rakata(sp) and the Sith(Species) worked along side each other during the Golden Empire. It makes sense to say this because Korriban was the Graveyard world(Easily forgoten, but easily remembered) on the edge of the Rakata Empire; where Lehon was the relavivly close center.
  • On Lehon we see that the Rakata slowly lost their connecting to the force with each generation the Sith did not. So this leaves the True Sith Species hiding in the unknown regions. Revan no doubt emcountered them, though this is not refernced anywhere.--68.85.24.82 19:38, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Revision required

This page needs to be revised in light of the new information now available. QuentinGeorge 01:27, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

  • I am not aware what you are talking about but since you are, please go on. MoffRebus 08:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I updated the "Behind the Scenes" section to reflect the new info about Adas, but beyond that I wasn't sure what to do.SithPower 21:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
      • The cleanup tag should be removed now should it not? Darth Kevinmhk 04:36, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
        • I removed more junk from the BTS section. I don't think it needs to be longer than this. Charlii 07:42, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

True Sith Appearance?

At one point in the game Canderous Ordo tells of a ship he once chased until it crossed the boundaries of the galaxy, he said that the ship looked like an asteroid and spat fireballs. Could this possibly be the "True Sith"?

  • The general consensus is that he came across some Yuuzhan Vong scouts. —Silly Dan (talk) 01:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Kreia mainly is the only one to talk about the "True Sith". Kreia also wanted to destroy the Force. Since the Yuuzhan Vong are untouched by the Force perhaps there is some connection?
  • I was thinking about this, and why the hell Revan would wander off into the Unkown regions when a theory hit me. It's generally believed that the asteroid-like alien vessel that Canderous witnessed flying off into the Inter-galactic void was a Yuuzhan Vong vessel that was scouting the Galaxy before they turned up, and Canderous did tell Revan about this thing he saw in KOTOR. Goto goes on about how strange it was that Revan appeared to be trying to conquer the Republic in order to strengthen it, by leaving key infrastructure in place as though he anticipated an attack from a more serious opponent than any known. Everyone seemed to assume Revan was thinking about the Sith seen in KOTOR II or these 'True Sith', maybe what Revan was worrying about was an extragalactic threat such as the Yuuzhan Vong. Anyway a theory I've been toying with is that he may have come across signs of the Vong and believed them to be an impending threat which required strong leadership to face down, but he just happened to get the timing of their invasion wrong by a few millenia. 5-Oct-2006
  • A theory. And a good theory. but how did Revan find out about the Yuuzhan Vong? He could hardly have "sensed" them, and he wasn't exactly on speaking terms with Canderous during his time as Dark Lord. Darth Abeonis Sith Council (Sith campaign) 20:55, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

He might have encountered them in some form when he searched for the Star Forge. It may be unlikely, as most of the systems were in civilized space, but he could have found them somewhere near the unknown world. That seems the only logical explaination if we assume the threat was the Vong, but I have some doubts about that.

So the Vong took about 4,000 years to scout, plan, and invade?

I think the "Revan fell to save the Republic" theory is a load of Dianoga osik, but your theory is interesting. Lord Patrick 03:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

213.134.160.234 10:09, 22 June 2007 (UTC)If you read the loadscreen messages, there is a mention of gravitonic anomalies in Malachor system that made Mass Shadow Generator possible. Could these be dovin basal anomalies? Besides, look at Darth Sion, Lord of Pain. It is said that he learned pain in Trayus Academy, which may be a hint that Academy holds the Yuuzhan Vong secrets. It isn't organic structure, but maybe Vong did not build it, they just made it their library or something like that and it was build by someone else?

In Kotor if u ask Canderous about Mandalorian Wars and how they begun, he tells u that, the Sith came to them and because of them, the mandalorians started their war. As far as i know, in this thime, 20 years after the Great Sith War, ther was no Sith. After Kun, there was nobody until Darth Revan. So Canderous logically told about True Sith and ofcourse, it was True Sith who was in background of Mandalorian wars so , I thing the first mentioned isnt in kotor 2 but in the first kotor. --ScorpiO 16:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Just a Hunch

Now like I said, this is just a hunch. What if the True Sith are none other than the Yuuzhan Vong? I mean think about it. It's clear that the word Sith became sort of a pejorative for "evil" so in that context "True Sith" could mean "True Evil". Also, thanks to Canderous we know that the Vong were already at the edge of the Outer Rim, and likely had been here for some thime (the ship was encased in ice in an asteroid field). And we know that Palpatine knew of the Vong (or "Far Outsiders") even before the Clone Wars, so what if that knowledge dates back even further? And it's my belief that the reason Palpatine created the Empire was to ensure that the galaxy would be able to withstand and defeat the Vong, and Revan was doing the same thing when he attacked the Republic. Disciple even says that Revan was attacking the Republic with the goal of leaving the infrastructure intact, so he, too was just trying to strenghten the galaxy to make it capable of surviving an attack by and unseen enemy. That's my theory in a nutshell. Comments, please?

  • The problem is: what happened to them? We know that the Vong choose the Galaxy as a target after Shimmra assumed command. So why would they try to invade the Galaxy, leave and then return 4000 years later? Charlii 21:55, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

77.236.0.195 09:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Why do you think we're talking about all Vongs? As we know, they aren't exactly agreeable about everything. Maybe it's just small group of them? 77.236.0.195 14:04, 5 July 2007 (UTC)Palpatine knew about them, and he was a Sith. How would he know about them? Revan -whether he wants it or not- will always be considered as a Sith -redeemed Sith, but Sith nonetheless. If he indeed fought Yuuzhan Vong, wouldn't it be mentioned in Sith history?

    • only one slight tiny problem. The Yuuzhan Vong do not feel the force. Whatsoever. In my opinion, being force-sensitive is kind of a requirement to be a sith AckbarSig TheOne&OnlyAdmirableAckbar (It's A Trap!) 14:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Perhaps it's not an issue of either or, but both. By that I mean it's possible both the 'True Sith' and the Vong were both present. The Vong invaded the unknown regions, but the True Sith were able to fight them off the first time. They figured the Vong would return in greater numbers, so they convinced Revan to conquer the Republic and unify the galaxy to fight off this threat. After Revan was redeemed, he may have thought the True Sith had lied to get him to attack the Republic, so he set out to destroy them. Even if he succeeded, a legend of the "Far Outsiders" could have survived until Palpatine's time, even if a record of their previous invasion did not.
  • Revan was going to fight the 'True Sith'... not fight with them.

Is it possible that the "True Sith" survived and are not the Vong but are the direct ancestor of the One Sith organization?

"True Sith" Logic

I think it is just a misstranslated concept. Otherwords, the Sith in KotOR II were not following traditional Sith rituals. Even though they carried the name "The Sith Lords", they were just not following the "Sith" concept found in "KotOR I". Otherwords, the Sith on Korriban were "True Sith" (Real Sith), and the Sith in KotOR II (The Sith who followed Nihlus, Kreia, and Sion) were amature Sith. - KotORFan 64.136.27.226 01:12, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

"Dialogue" with Canderous Ordo

Is it possible that these are the Sith ttat Canderous refers to twice in possibkle dialogue with Revan? For instance, after talking about the final defeat at Malachor V, Revan can ask something like "But what about the Sith?" Then Canderous will say something like, "The Sith had gone, retreated to their old empire." Another possible dialogue is in one of the first conversations with him after Taris; hehe will say something about the Sith coming to them with an offer to attack the Republic; in one of the K.O.T.O.R. issues Rohlan Dyre says something about their attacking the Republic not feeling right, Just a theory, and probably a very good one.--Zhran 04:26, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

  • It is possible that he is speaking of the so-called "true Sith", but there was at least one other Sith faction still active during the period: the Sith who were running the Sith Academy on Korriban (who were probably remnants of Ulic Qel-Droma's Krath and/or Exar Kun's Brotherhood of the Sith). For reference, here is the dialogue in question:
"The Sith came to us with an offer – to fight a worthy enemy in a battle that would be remembered forever."
―Canderous Ordo[src]
"The Sith had gone – retreated into their empire. They sealed themselves off from the rest of the galaxy. We thought it would be centuries before they'd come back. It's amazing that they could rebuild their fleet so fast."
―Canderous Ordo[src]

Unfortunately, his dialogue is so ambiguous that it is pretty much impossible to know what group he was talking about.–SentryTalk 07:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Millennium Falcon novel

"By all indications, their quest should be safe, innocent: something to keep them interested and busy. But as they piece together the clues of the past, hints of a more profound mystery begin to reveal themselves, and a faceless threat lies in wait—one that has already launched a tentative assault not only on the Jedi Order, but on the Force itself."
―Publisher's summary of Millennium Falcon[src]

It sounds like the True Sith, and an assault on the Force itself sounds like Kreia... Drewton Era-old (Drewton's Holocron)

True Sith and Yuuzhan Vong are the same

Isn't it possible that some Vong while scouting the outer rim found Zomana Sekot, realized that their Gods, and beliefs were wrong, and asked for forgivness. Then Zomana Sekot gave the force back to them. Then the Vong broke off from the rest of the Vong, and discovered Malachor V where some of Ragnos's Sith still survived planning their revenge. They fell to the dark side, joined forces, sent the Mandalorians after the republic. Then when Revan found it they abandoned it to retreat and watch in The Outer Rim. When they returned to find any salvagable wreckage from the Battle of Malachor V they found Nihilus taught him the ancient sith language, and taught him the ancient sith techniques and sent him back the Malachor V the train under Traya, and bring down the Sith Triumvirate to pave the way. Sort of like Nom Anor the idea of which came from their Vong Converts? Sort of like an emmisary to the galaxy. Whew that was long. Let it soak in. User:Revanthereformer1138 June 1 2008

Mention in kotor1

In one of the load screen blurbs in kotor1 it said something along the lines of: "The Sith of today are but followers of an ideal, true Sith [And yes the T is lowercase] died out years ago." Although I think True Sith is a load of Bantha PD because evey time the name comes up, the T is lowercase, every time. The mention is canon NaruHina Talk Anakinsolo 23:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

New Information From the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

"...Intrigued, Kreia scours the texts through the Force, suspecting their authors were in fact pure-blooded descendants of the Sith people."

So the "true Sith" most likely are, in fact, the Sith (species), as many have speculated. Or at the very least this passage might be referring to said group. Should this information be entered on the page, if only as a possible revelation? 24.3.94.134 23:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

  • That's the impression that I received as well, however the campaign guide also alludes to Revan encountering a group of Sith remnants from Exar Kun's Brotherhood. Now we know that the Sith Academy on Korriban was established by at least one of these Sith holdouts of Kun's faction. The question becomes is it just Kreia's speculation (being unaware of where the Sith knowledge really came from), was there interchange between the two groups, or did Revan encounter first one then the other? Vryce 05:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

True Sith revealed

According to the official website for Star Wars: The Old Republic, the Sith Empire featured in the game is the True Sith that Revan sought in the Unknown Regions. Grand Moff Tranner Imperial Department of Military Research (Comlink) 23:37, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

  • This is indeed the case. A lot of article shifting might have to take place. I've been adding articles related to the new game. I've only been referring to the Sith as the "Sith Empire," though they are indeed the True Sith. We'll have to come up with a conjectural title, or simply create a new article called Sith Empire (Great War) or something like that. --Danik Kreldin 03:25, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
    • I think this page still has it's use, for describing the same thing as Traya did; the hidden remnant that stayed in the shadows between 5000 and 3600 BBY. It is directly connected to both the Old Sith Empire and the resurgent Sith Empire, that's for sure. But I still think this interregnum-period warrants it's own article. Charlii 16:01, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
      • There's no rush. We should probably wait until more info from the game comes out anyway. If they're truly the same organization, we should merge. Splinter factions? More tricky. we should give it time, no reason to jump the gun. Din's Fire 997 16:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Now that we know that these Sith existed, should we mention that it is possible that they were responsible for the start of the Mandalorian Wars as Canderous said in KotOR. Seems a very good explanation to me. They used the Mandalorians to cripple the Republic, then at some point during the war Revan discovered the True Sith and decided to conquer the Republic, so it could withstand their attack (as Kreia said in KotOR II). It also may resolve the Mandalore the Ultimate/Unidentified Mandalore dispute. The real Mandalore declared their offer, so the Sith replaced him with their agent. I know that it might be fanon and OR, but I think it should be at least noted in BtS. QuiGonJinn (Comlink)Quigonheadshot
  • This has been an Long Dispution since KOTOR2 came out,I agree with Quigon,The true Sith would certainly use the Mandalorians to weaken the Galaxy then when they were strong and read take it for themselves.Sith-venator 17:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
    • The KotOR Campaign Guide does hint that it was the Tund fraction of Sith that were behind the Mandalorian Wars. Then again, it does seem to imply that these were the True Sith, which we now know isn't true. Charlii 19:38, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
      • Do we, really? Is there a source stating: "the throneworld of the Sith Emperor was not Tund"? Since we're stuck with both the Tund and the True faction, and conveniently both are survivors of the Jen'ari Sith Empire, I personally do see it as possible that they were one and the same. Of course we'll have to wait and see what TOR brings Gorthuar 22:09, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
    • There is another quote from the official site that seems to hint on their possible relation to the Mandalorian Wars: "When the time for vengeance arrived, the Sith began infiltrating star systems in the Outer Rim, sowing seeds of discord and making secret deals with local criminals and warlords." QuiGonJinn (Comlink)Quigonheadshot
  • Gorthuar, the Sorcerers of Tund developed from Adas' faction, not the Jen'ari. Please read your sources. --Michaeldsuarez Infinite Empire (Activate Holocron) 23:40, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
    • You might have noticed that I was asking whether there is such a source. It should be pretty clear, even to least observant readers, that I am simply unaware of such sources existance. Instead of patronising, it would have been elegant of you to point that source out to me. Gorthuar 10:02, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
      • You could start by reading the relevant articles (as I did provide links to those, and sources can be found on article page). However, since I doubt that that would satisfy someone like yourself, here's a link for you: [1]. --Michaeldsuarez Infinite Empire (Activate Holocron) 02:27, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
        • This is bordering on incivility. Please be more polite, Michaeldsuarez. Chack Jadson (Talk) 02:31, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
  • I think it'll be easier (and maybe better) to discuss this once the game has come out. That way we'll (hopefully) have more answers and won't have to go back and forth on ideas that might prove to be untrue in the future. Just a thought... Because we all know how cannon can change when someone else gets a hold of an idea started by another. <3 China! 19:12, 20 February 2009 (UTC)