Pilot?
So does the new Hasbro Kesin Ommis figurine fit into canon that he was a pilot at some point? It seems to me that the figurine's description contradicts canon that he was a tailgunner in the T-47 snowspeeder, designated Rogue 4, which was piloted by Derek "Hobbie" Klivian. Or is the Legacy Collection description merely using some bad wording with the use of "pilot" least of all during the Battle of Hoth? JoelBray 06:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- It is my opinion that this action figure description is using the word "pilot" very broadly in this sense to encompass all personnel who serve in starfighters/airspeeders. Toprawa and Ralltiir 14:42, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- Just to update this topic, it would not be Hasbro's only error for this character. The action figure resembles Bren Derlin more than he resembles Ommis. Another case of errors is from the other Pilot Legacy release, which showed Ten Numb paired with an A-wing instead of a B-wing. GethralkinHyperwave 08:14, December 21, 2011 (UTC)
Identity
- Just want to inform you that the issue regarding Ommis/Ralter in 'Rogues Gallery' came straight from LFL. It's certainly not the first time that Decipher made a mistake. --Sompeetalay (talk) 16:34, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- Looking at the photos of Dak in the cockpit and Ommis at the briefing, I think it's somewhat obvious that they are both John Morton. --JMM (talk) 18:27, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- I can confirm what Sompeetalay says. So to that end I removed the erroneous Behind The Scenes information and ask for JMM to further clean up this article. --Exar Xan (talk) 22:12, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- I've taken the unfortunate measure of protecting this page against further edits for the time being, since it's clear this is going to be trouble and this debate involves two of the three people who wrote this "Rogues Gallery" issue. Firstly, Exar Xan, please do not engage in reversion wars. The right approach here is to discuss this on the talk page. You don't get to impose your version just because your name appears in the credits. I am extremely skeptical about accepting the information from "Rogues Gallery" at face value, because it's completely contradictory to the sum total of information that has come before. It doesn't matter that it "came straight from LFL." Everything comes from LFL. Heaven knows they make mistakes too. "Rogues Gallery" even contradicts itself by stating that Dak is both Rogue Four and Luke's gunner. He can't be both; Luke is Rogue Leader. Every source dealing with the Rogue Hoth roster, including The Essential Guide to Warfare, states that Kesin Ommis is Hobbie's gunner as Rogue Four. So if we accept all of this "Rogues Gallery" information as correct, where does that leave Kesin Ommis? Does he even exist as a character anymore? Obviously some or all of this "Rogues Gallery" information is wrong. I don't view this as "correcting" a mistake; I view it as a clearly demonstrable error in light of all of the consistent canon material that has come before, and I feel treating it as such is the most practical approach here. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 21:48, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see how you can say they're the same actor. Ommis clearly has a mustache shadow and is wearing a white hood, while Ralter is wearing a black hood under his helmet and lacks a prominent facial hair shadow. Plus, their eyebrows, forehead, nose, and dimples look completely different. Cade
Calrayn 21:53, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- Reversion wars? Seriously? I made every edit once...and did not keep changing things back. Every edit was some different part I noticed was in error. About the other thing about Kesin vs Dak? Facts don't lie my friend...--Exar Xan (talk) 22:59, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- Facts don't lie, but they're also not always correct. Sources unfortunately occasionally contradict one another because someone along the line either goofed or didn't do their research well enough, so it falls to us as editors to exercise a little executive decision-making from time to time. The "Rogues Gallery" bit stating that Dak is Rogue Four at Hoth is an unmistakable error, for example, so we treat it as such. Likewise, it's clear to me that the identification of Kesin Ommis as Dak Ralter is also in error and should be treated as such. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 22:11, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- Just my last few two cents about this. I'm sorry to repeat myself. The info regarding Kesin Ommis / Dak Ralter came straight from Lucasfilm (Pablo Hidalgo). If you guys feel that there is a higher authority regarding SW than Lucasfilm, go ahead. Contact Leland or Pablo about this and see what they will tell you. You can neglect the 'Rogue 4' issue (it's what remains of Kesin). And I don't see why Kesin shouldn't be able to exist anymore. He just doesn't appear in the movie at this moment. --Sompeetalay (talk) 22:14, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- In any event, whoever edited/vetted this "Rogues Gallery" article clearly screwed up: The header states that Dak is Rogue Four and from Coruscant, but then the following blurb says he grew up in an Imperial penal colony (Kalist VI). Kesin Ommis is Rogue Four and from Coruscant. I'm willing to bet the original version of this article correctly identified the character as Ommis, but then someone came along and changed it and forgot to update the header. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 22:25, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- That's what happened. Rogue 4 and Coruscant are (unfortunately) remaining from the draft that still featured Kesin. He was changed into Dak Ralter after additional research was done by LFL. --Sompeetalay (talk) 22:43, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- Reversion wars? Seriously? I made every edit once...and did not keep changing things back. Every edit was some different part I noticed was in error. About the other thing about Kesin vs Dak? Facts don't lie my friend...--Exar Xan (talk) 22:59, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see how you can say they're the same actor. Ommis clearly has a mustache shadow and is wearing a white hood, while Ralter is wearing a black hood under his helmet and lacks a prominent facial hair shadow. Plus, their eyebrows, forehead, nose, and dimples look completely different. Cade
- I've taken the unfortunate measure of protecting this page against further edits for the time being, since it's clear this is going to be trouble and this debate involves two of the three people who wrote this "Rogues Gallery" issue. Firstly, Exar Xan, please do not engage in reversion wars. The right approach here is to discuss this on the talk page. You don't get to impose your version just because your name appears in the credits. I am extremely skeptical about accepting the information from "Rogues Gallery" at face value, because it's completely contradictory to the sum total of information that has come before. It doesn't matter that it "came straight from LFL." Everything comes from LFL. Heaven knows they make mistakes too. "Rogues Gallery" even contradicts itself by stating that Dak is both Rogue Four and Luke's gunner. He can't be both; Luke is Rogue Leader. Every source dealing with the Rogue Hoth roster, including The Essential Guide to Warfare, states that Kesin Ommis is Hobbie's gunner as Rogue Four. So if we accept all of this "Rogues Gallery" information as correct, where does that leave Kesin Ommis? Does he even exist as a character anymore? Obviously some or all of this "Rogues Gallery" information is wrong. I don't view this as "correcting" a mistake; I view it as a clearly demonstrable error in light of all of the consistent canon material that has come before, and I feel treating it as such is the most practical approach here. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 21:48, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- I can confirm what Sompeetalay says. So to that end I removed the erroneous Behind The Scenes information and ask for JMM to further clean up this article. --Exar Xan (talk) 22:12, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- Looking at the photos of Dak in the cockpit and Ommis at the briefing, I think it's somewhat obvious that they are both John Morton. --JMM (talk) 18:27, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with Sompeetalay.--75.34.192.144 22:19, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- Just to confirm Sompeetalay's statement; there has been much discussion about the whole Kesin/Dak identity issue. The "Rogue 4 / Coruscant" error is a leftover of that debate, which has indeed slipped through the editorial cracks. Obviously Dak is not Rogue 4. At one point the draft of the article did indeed identify this character as Kesin, but research by LFL showed that it was actually Dak, and Decipher had been wrong all along. --Wild Whiphid (Contact) 22:46, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- Thought I'd add my two cents there. Just look at that pic of "Kesin Ommis" and that pic of Morton playing an airline pilot in Flash Gordon. It's painfully obvious that these two are portrayed the same actor. Or are you all doubters going to say Morton doesn't even look like himself? Let's just admit it: Decipher was mistaken. It has happened before. --LelalMekha (talk) 23:29, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- I think we can clear this up by contacting Leland. As the Keeper of the Holocron, his word trumps everything, even if it contradicts previous sources. We've already deferred to him on one Rogues Gallery issue before that changed the identity of several characters; no reason we wouldn't do it again. Menkooroo (talk) 23:40, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- No need. I'm reluctantly satisfied to accept that this change is not a mistake, and Hidalgo has (rather rudely) confirmed it on his Twitter page. Sompeetalay/Wild Whiphid: Can you provide reference-able material for the evolution of the draft and the Ommis leftover? That would be good info to stick into the BTS, but I would need to source it to something. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 01:52, December 3, 2013 (UTC)
- I think we can clear this up by contacting Leland. As the Keeper of the Holocron, his word trumps everything, even if it contradicts previous sources. We've already deferred to him on one Rogues Gallery issue before that changed the identity of several characters; no reason we wouldn't do it again. Menkooroo (talk) 23:40, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- Thought I'd add my two cents there. Just look at that pic of "Kesin Ommis" and that pic of Morton playing an airline pilot in Flash Gordon. It's painfully obvious that these two are portrayed the same actor. Or are you all doubters going to say Morton doesn't even look like himself? Let's just admit it: Decipher was mistaken. It has happened before. --LelalMekha (talk) 23:29, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
- For the record, I think I can say that while looking at some of the various pilots on Wookieepedia for some research, it just occurred to me, "Hey, is that the same actor?" I also realized that other than Luke, every other actor later seen in their cockpits (assuming Hobbie's scenes were cut) are in that scene. You can even see the back of Janson's helmet enter from the left of the screen once the group starts heading for their ships. I contacted Pablo Hidalgo and asked him if he agreed with me. I think he contacted John Morton, who confirmed that the actor is him. Now, I suppose we could argue that that doesn't mean he can't be Ommis in that scene, but why not correct an error from years ago? It's not as if Ommis is an important character and that continuity is greatly altered. I also wonder if Hasbro somehow noticed this a few years back, and that's why they stuck a mustache on him. That main portrait of him is from the Hasbro packaging, but on screen he's clearly clean-shaven. What is interesting is that this all came about just in time for the Rogues Gallery article to be changed. --JMM (talk) 02:43, December 3, 2013 (UTC)
- And I would say that this doesn't really effect the character of Kesin Ommis all that much. He still exists as a character and is still Hobbie's gunner. The only change is that the photo we thought was of Ommis is not actually him. He just becomes one of the many Rogues off screen. Or he could even be this guy. :) --JMM (talk) 02:50, December 3, 2013 (UTC)
- We will gladly give some additional information once the Insider has reached its official publication date, which is December 10, if I'm not mistaken. JMM, that's exactly how I feel about Kesin. Until shortly, nearly none of the pilots appeared in TESB. --Sompeetalay (talk) 08:25, December 3, 2013 (UTC)
- Here are the endnotes about the Rogues. --Sompeetalay (talk) 00:33, December 8, 2013 (UTC)
- Very nice. Is it possible to elaborate on what Hidalgo's additional research was? I heard that he contacted John Morton and/or Morton's sister to confirm he was the actor in question. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 01:25, December 9, 2013 (UTC)
- I don't know about confirming it, but I was told that Morton himself confirmed he's standing next to Hobbie. I don't know about an official source you can point to. --JMM (talk) 01:42, December 9, 2013 (UTC)
- From what was said in the e-mail I received from Leland/Pablo, it was Morton's daughter who confirmed this. I've added this to the document. There is nothing more I can do right now regarding this matter. --Sompeetalay (talk) 17:16, December 9, 2013 (UTC)
- Great, thanks for your help. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 01:10, December 10, 2013 (UTC)
- From what was said in the e-mail I received from Leland/Pablo, it was Morton's daughter who confirmed this. I've added this to the document. There is nothing more I can do right now regarding this matter. --Sompeetalay (talk) 17:16, December 9, 2013 (UTC)
- I don't know about confirming it, but I was told that Morton himself confirmed he's standing next to Hobbie. I don't know about an official source you can point to. --JMM (talk) 01:42, December 9, 2013 (UTC)
- Very nice. Is it possible to elaborate on what Hidalgo's additional research was? I heard that he contacted John Morton and/or Morton's sister to confirm he was the actor in question. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 01:25, December 9, 2013 (UTC)
- Here are the endnotes about the Rogues. --Sompeetalay (talk) 00:33, December 8, 2013 (UTC)
- We will gladly give some additional information once the Insider has reached its official publication date, which is December 10, if I'm not mistaken. JMM, that's exactly how I feel about Kesin. Until shortly, nearly none of the pilots appeared in TESB. --Sompeetalay (talk) 08:25, December 3, 2013 (UTC)
- And I would say that this doesn't really effect the character of Kesin Ommis all that much. He still exists as a character and is still Hobbie's gunner. The only change is that the photo we thought was of Ommis is not actually him. He just becomes one of the many Rogues off screen. Or he could even be this guy. :) --JMM (talk) 02:50, December 3, 2013 (UTC)
