Talk: Anakin Skywalker/Legends/Archive11

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Second Infobox Maybe?

With the Vader/Anakin article merging, maybe there should be a separate infobox for Darth Vader? Also, I was thinking about replacing the main image with this one instead:

250px

It just seems to fit, but that's just me. MaxPayne21 "Max-Tex" 22:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

  • I agree with you about the seperate infobox. Also the pic rocks! Rayman 01:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Without a doubt, Darth Vader should definitely be made into a separate article. JediSeven
  • Should I put it there? Rayman 05:58, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
    • No. The image is of poor quality, and won't be accepted. {{SUBST:Template:User:Jasca Ducato/Sig}} 08:19, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Per Jasco on the image. A previous vote resulted in no consensus on a dual image infobox and there was little support for using two infoboxes as I recall. It might not be perfect, but it would appear we're stuck with what we've got. Green Tentacle (Talk) 08:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

New Addition

Someone has added "Anakin died from Sidious's force lightning, which short-circuted the apparatus that gives him oxygen to breathe. Then Luke removed the helmet, and unknowingly, Anakin died because of that." Is this confirmed anywhere or is it merely speculation by a user? SSupa 21:12, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd say speculation. Remember, Vader said, after Luke told him that he would die, "...nothing can stop that now." He was already about to die, as his systems were short circuted. The fact that Luke took his mask off is irrelavant. --Avian Starr 22:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

destruction orb

in the destruction orb article it states that vader could use this ability. Does anyone think this should be mentioned in the talents section of this article. 69.23.65.113 02:19, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Needs to be sourced first. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 20:18, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Splinter of the Mind's Eye. In the book, it's a destruction orb, but for some reason, those brain-boxes at Dark Horse made it lightning. .... 07:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
      • Maybe He found a way to channel Destruction Orb to make it look like a lightning attack. There is a image of Darth Bane doing a similar thing but im not sure weather it is Destruction Orb or just force lightning. But Im still just speculating. 24.208.43.203 23:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Cin Draillg

Maybe it is just me, but does anyone else ponder how Darth vader killed Cin. I mean he is all powerful. But Cin was suppose to be on the level of yoda and Mace or close to it. It was said that he surpass all, but the two. So could Vader win? Cin was either as strong or stronger the Obi, but some how lost to a lesser experince Knight. Gorege even said the main reason why Vader won was because of experince. SO how did he win is the question. I think personaly that Lucas wanted Vader to seem stringer then he really was and that Cin was a stepping stone —Unsigned comment by 68.58.59.206 (talk • contribs)

Vader could not even beat Obi. So how coul he defeat Cin —Unsigned comment by 68.58.59.206 (talk • contribs)

I agree with Nebulax. Cin Drallig lost against Anakin. It's a fact, as seen on Episode III. Now, there can be multiple reasons for that:

  • Anakin was the Chosen one (prophecy=Deus Ex Maquina)
  • Anakin was really powerful, and his power could compensate experience
  • Anakin fought in the Clone Wars, and apparently, his feats were such he was considered a hero. He even had duels against multiple Dark Jedi if we are to believe the Expanded Universe. Obi Wan Kenobi was master of a Lightsabre Form that increased his protection (which enabled him to fight and win against the four lightsabres of Grievous, when other masters lost the same fight). While Cin Dralling was a weapon master, we do not know about his experience in true, "dirty" combat.
  • Perhaps Obi Wan's acute mastery of Form III against Anakin's use of Form V was, perhaps, more helpful than Cin Drallig's more general mastery of all forms.
  • Anakin was "winning" as his troops were invading the temple, and Cin was loosing, as padawans and younglings were dying around him. This could boost Anakin's morale and anihilate Cin's. And, when two masters fight one against the other, the mental and the moral becomes very important as their overall abilities match.
  • Anakin was exhausted by the fights (the Jedi Temple + Mustaphar), perhaps more than Obi Wan who had time to rest after fleeing Utapau.
  • Anakin had no choice, but prove himself to Palpatine, and give himself to the Dark Side, and thus, would not consider the fight in the Temple won from the beginning. To the contrary, in his fight against Obi Wan, he was arrogant, as he had been before in hits fight against against Dooku on Geonosis. This arrogance made him try dangerous moves and lose some body mass (as he did against Dooku).

There is a LOT of valid reasons to have Anakin win against Cin Drallig, while losing against Obi Wan. Perhaps in a "Dojo-like" training duel, Cin would have won. But this was a dirty fight, within a battlefield, so this was not a training duel. Note that no one saw the whole fight in Episode III, so we can only assume the fight against Cin Drallig must have been very tough. But in the end Anakin won. I can be wrong, unless one have more arguments than "(Cin > Obi) and (Obi > Ani)=> Cin > Ani", then there is not point in discussing this fact anymore. Paercebal 10:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

  • First of all there wasn't anything saying Cin had that much force ability, and just because he knew most of the forms doesn't mean he was good at using them, he could be like me know a ton about sword fighting but isn't good at using it in a fight. Vader could of just force choked him. Derek Yoda's friend 02:24, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Paercebal. Anakin was most definitely more powerful than Cin Drallig, and he had the entire 501st to back him up. Also, despite his skill with the lightsaber, it is doubtful that Cin Drallig could have defeated Obi-Wan or held up against Anakin as well as Kenobi. Despite the fact that Drallig was skilled in all the lightsaber forms, Kenobi was recognized by Mace Windu as the master of Soresu, and was more concentrated on it than Drallig. Also, Obi-Wan knew Anakin's style from years of training, and could anticipate his moves, making for a much more even match than the Anakin vs. Drallig duel.Hobbes15

  • Obi-Wan has just spent the last thirteen years fighting alongside Anakin, so he's gonna know what he's capable off. Also, Cin Drallig was over-ocnfident as proven by his quote "There is one thing you have yet to learn, how to become one with the Force".

Vader slew Cin Dralling due to his skill with the lightsaber, and Drallig's over-confident recklessness, Obi-Wan however knew that there was a good chance Vader could win the duel and so fought to survive, as well as win. Jasca Ducato Sith Council Sith Campaign 17:40, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Vader's body dematerialises? According to what?

Hi there folks, Longtime reader, first-time user, so please be gentle! Maybe this has been covered before (I know I've certainly had heated discussions with people about it), but it doesn't seem to be listed as a past talking point here so I thought I'd raise it:

Is there any canonical evidence that Vader's body vanishes upon death, ala Kenobi and Yoda, and that therefore all Luke cremates is his armour & prosthetics? This article asserts the notion as though it is canon, but I've never seen any credible source that confirms this.

Indeed, it seems to fly in the face of common sense. Ben and Yoda dissolved immediately upon death, whereas Vader/redeemed Annie clearly dies on-camera and yet his very solid body remains in frame for the remainder of the scene, which is several long seconds. There is certainly no indication in ROTJ itself that his body is supposed to have vanished, which would be a very odd omission if it was intended (always a dangerous word around these parts, I know!) to be the case. Furthermore, it's not as though becoming one with the Force/a Force Ghost without one's body disappearing is unprecedented; Qui-Gon's body didn't dematerialise either.

So, without wanting to get into any arguments with people, could anyone please simply source this assertion? Because if there's no canon source, I think it shouldn't be included in the article as though it were canon. Thanks, -Freddie T. —Unsigned comment by 129.78.208.4 (talk • contribs)

  • First of all, Qui-Gon didn't become a Force ghost. Second, I don't see any law indicating how much time is taken between one's death and their body vanishing. Obi-Wan died and vanished at the same time; Yoda died, then seconds later his body vanished. There could have been minutes between Anakin/Vader's death and vanish into the Force, assuming his body did indeed vanish. But the fact is that Anakin was, upon his death, the Jedi Master—he fulfilled his role as the Chosen One, despite have been mortally wounded by Palpatine—and it's probable that he had spent a lot of time trying to figure how to achieve the "vanishing body" trick after Kenobi's death. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 00:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Okay, thanks; that's all very well, but I reiterate my question; is there any canonical source that actually indicates that his body did, in fact, dematerialise before Luke cremated him? (Furthermore, if only his bionics were left, wouldn't his body look like a deflated bag on the funeral pyre, since we know most of his chest was still organic?). And how is Qui-Gon not a Force Ghost? Isn't that the definition of your consciousness surviving the Force beyond the death of the physical body? Is a lack of (onscreen) visual appearance enough to declare him NOT a fore ghost? But my main question is the first one; evidence for Vader's body dissolving. Thanks, -Freddie T. —Unsigned comment by 129.78.208.4 (talk • contribs)
      • 1) I don't have a source for this. 2) Some armor doesn't just cave in on itself when it's not being worn. Anything regarding the armor is not evidence. 3) Qui-Gon was never shown as a Force ghost; therefore, he wasn't. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 01:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
        • In Dark Rendezvous, Qui-Gon comes to Yoda and communicates with him, insinuating that he is indeed, a force ghost.--Dooku(Solar Sailer)17px 01:23, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
          • Can you provide a quote? —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 01:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
            • "...and then Qui-Gon was beside him...waiting for Yoda to find his way down the untaken path...to the heart of things. Yoda opened his eyes. Qui-Gon's feel in the force was the same as always: stern and energetic. 'Become like a wave he has...a wave without a shore.'...'He is a fencer,' Qui-Gon agreed. pg. 51 Yoda: Dark Rendezvous. It goes on like that for the next half of the page, and then "Qui-Gon shivered, and was gone." (pg. 52).--Dooku(Solar Sailer)17px 01:37, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
              • Okay, then strike number three. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 01:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
                • I thought you wanted me to strike it?--Dooku(Solar Sailer)17px 01:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
                  • If I really had wanted that done, I could have done it myself. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 01:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
                    • Good point.--Dooku(Solar Sailer)17px 01:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
                      • In any case, I'll look for a source. I have a feeling that the RotJ novel might be the source, though. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 01:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
                        • I've heard that his armor disappears - I think in a Lucas interview. Fat lot of good that does us here, though... Cutch 03:14, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
                          • "Armor disappears?" I don't think that's quite possible - Kyp Durron visits the pyre in Dark Apprentice, and, while it is scorched and melted almost beyond recognition, there is a few "heat-warped pieces of armor", meaning it couldn't disappear. JorrelWiki-shrinkableFraajic 03:23, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  • It's from Databank title Vader, Darth in the Databank (original site is defunct). - Lord Hydronium 03:33, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Specifically: "He then died, his body disappearing into the light side of the Force. Luke burned the dark armor that had encased Anakin's crippled body in a quiet funeral pyre on the forest moon of Endor that night. " JorrelWiki-shrinkableFraajic 03:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Okay, thanks. So; is that it? That sole Databank entry is considered enough to rule Vader's UNDEPICTED body-vanish as canonical? I'm not arguing per se; if those are the strict rules here at Wook then there's not much point in me arguing the toss, but it seems pretty thin to me. I think if Lucas intended (oooh, the "i" word!) for Vader's body to vanish, he would have done so at the time, as he did with Yoda in the same film. And if it's a retcon he approved of, he could've easily made Vader's exposed head vanish in either of the Special Edition "updates" (while he already at work enthusiastically erasing eyebrows). Plus I still don't see how you can say that Qui-Gon (who also didn't disappear) isn't a Force Ghost. He talks to Yoda several times post-mortem; what does it matter if he doesn't materialise in spectral form? If anyone can (politely) explain this to me, I'd appreciate it. -Freddie T.
    • No, we take what the Databanks say as canon isbecause it's a source, and the best source at that. Skywalker became a Force Ghost, end of. And with regards to not actually apperaing, per se, in the EU. not all Force Ghosts have to physically show themselves. Anakin just chooses not to for the moment. Jasca Ducato Sith Council Sith Campaign 09:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
      • Two things, Freddie: 1) Anakin's body vanished and became a Force ghost, as Jasca already said. Don't argue against canon. 2) In case you haven't noticed, I've been proven wrong on Qui-Gon not becoming a Force ghost. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 12:00, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
        • Okay, cheers. Sith Council is actually misunderstanding/misparaphrasing some of the nuances of what I actually said/asked, but the overall message is clear: if Databank says it, it's Holy Writ as far as Wook is concerned. That's cool; I'll just go about personally believing my own "common-sense fanon" version which gives superior credence the actual film and ignores isolated discrepancies in online secondary sources. But as far as debating the Wook entry, no further argument from me. Thanks guys, -Freddie T.
            • Actually, my name is Jasca Ducato/Darth Abeonis. Not "Sith Council". Jasca Ducato Sith Council Sith Campaign 08:37, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
              • Sorry about that Jasca; the result of a badly-executed cut & paste, it seems. Didn't mean to offend your sensibilities. -Freddie T.
  • A new element perhaps. George Lucas state against the databank entry in the ROTJ 2004 DVD commentary. He indicate that it's Obi-Wan and Yoda who help Anakin to become a force-ghost and he precise that the body of Anakin was still in the armor when Luke burn it. Check it out ! Guiguioh 10:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Come to think of it, who says a Jedi's body has to vanish when they become "immortal" as Yoda put it. I mean, Qui-Gon's body didn't disappear but he managed to become a Force Ghost, so, if Anakin's body was still in the armour, then he could quite easily have just left his body behind. Jasca Ducato Sith Council Sith Campaign 11:46, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
    • But the most of Qui-Gon that lives on is his voice. Yoda and Obi-Wan's bodies appeared through the Force. -Milo Fett[Comlink] 00:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Remember in Episode IV when Obi-Wan tells Luke to "use the Force" when firing the proton torpedoes at the Death Star I. Only his voice was used, not a physical image. Jasca Ducato Sith Council Sith Campaign 16:49, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
      • I've seen the movie. But now I can't remeber why I argued this in the first place. Never mind :-) -Milo Fett[Comlink] 22:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
      • There is no set time limit for how long it takes for a body to disintegrate, it took at least a few minutes for the body of Jedi Master Nejaa Halcyon (see I, Jedi) to disintegrate. I also would like to point out that Yoda give Obi-Wan an assignment at the end of Episode III, the assignment it to communicate with the ghost/spirit of Qui-Gon Jin, therefore, Qui-gon did become a spirit.
      • Neblax just because something is not shown does not mean that it is not canon, if that were true then that would mean that every character that does not appear in the movies but does in the books is non-canonical,
  • Wow. You geeks need to re-read what you have written here from the POV of a new comer to this site. Rude, abrupt, and all but screaming at Fred to stop questioning canon, even after he stated several times he was new and was not out to start anything, just asking questions.

This is why Star Wars fans are considerd such losers by "normal" people, the first imagined slight and you all behaving like teenage girls at a boyband of the moment preformance.* —Unsigned comment by 125.237.35.114 (talk • contribs)

  • Who's the loser: The Star Wars fan, or the anon who comes to a Star Wars site just to pick fights? —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 23:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Qui-Gon doesn't appear as a Force Ghost on episodes II and III because Liam Neeson broke his leg. I read it in IMBd, I think. Darth Echuta 16:58, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Infobox Picture

I sort of think that the more ubiquitous Darth Vader (you can probably guess which one I'm talking about)should be in the infobox picture. If I can still read, lower down in this page the infobox picture is addressed briefly, and someone who's username looks a lot like a four-dotted ellipsis says that the picture should depict the person in their prime. If the semi-deformed ellipsis can be trusted, then I think that it follows that the infobox picture shouldn't have Hayden Christensen in it. --- 05:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)MaxW

Sorry. Thanks for correcting me. MaxW 22:10, 8 March 2007 (UTC)MaxW

2.4 Rewrite - Anakin's dimisned connection to the Force

I believe the idea that Anakin's/Vader's connection to the Force was "greviously" dimished after meing maimed needs to be rexaimined. Using Yoda as an example, we cannot base a connection to the Force on body mass, as such, the reduced mass of flesh on Vader's body should not have an affect on his ability to use the Force, or his connection to it. Yoda was a fraction of Anakin's size, yet he was more powerful than every other Jedi. In my opinion, the argument does not hold water.

In Episode I, Qui Gon ambiguiously refers to a "midichlorion count." It's not stated whether they are counted through his whole body, or simply within his cells. My suspicion is the midichlorions were counted in the cells, as a small blood sample is used. It is also possible the Jedi used a certain measured quantity of blood/cells to yield a midichlorion count.

If we compare the masses of Anakin and Yoda, and apply the idea that the size of a body, and the midichlorions contained within the whole determine the connection to the Force, Yoda's concentration of midichlorions would need to be astronomical to produce the abilities he displays. As Yoda said, "Size matters not." I believe this applies even to Anakin sans three limbs.

If there is a cannon refrence contradicting this thought, please let me know, but even so the idea does not stand to reasoning, given the sum of evidence. Thoughts?

  • There have been several discussions about this and there are a few theories for instance ( and this is the one I prefer ) after the Duel with Obi-Wan and the loss of his wife Vader has become a Sad man and his only true last connection with life is Palpatine ( this is stated in The Legacy Of The Force series ) and because of his depression he limits himself now there is a whole theory about but it comes this to this once Vader would get over his 'depression' and forgive himself he would be able to summon his powerful Force potention again. However G.Lucas has stated that Vader only has 80% of Palpatines powers after the loss of his limps, if he did not lose his limps he would be twice as powerfull, and since this comes from Lucas himself we can presume that's the 'canon theory'Galedze(Connection Trough The Force) 18:48, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Good enough for me. Thanks.
    • The first user was dead on. While Anakin did lose some physical ability, it was 99% mental. Read Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader to learn more. He never stopped feeling sorry for himself. Sure he was weaker, but if he could have thrown the self-pity aside, he could have become even more powerful than Palpatine. He never truly got over the death of his wife. Indeed, he never fully embraced the dark side; if he had, he could have become the Jedi (though as a Sith, if that makes sense) he was meant to be. Chack Jadson 20:17, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
      • And that could explain why he was able to kill Palpatine in RotJ: His son filled the space that Padmé had been in, allowing himself to fully embrace the Force. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 20:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Basicly yes, only then he was able to sort of 'get over it' and do what needed to be done. And what Chack says is also true despite Lucas's statement that Vader only has 80% of Palpatine's power he guess that it was the power he was using or could use at the time, either way I think Vader with or without limps had and always had the power of becoming the strongest Force user in the Galaxy ever within him. Galedze(Connection Trough The Force) 20:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
    • "only then he was able to sort of 'get over it' and do what needed to be done". No, I don't think so. Luke's cries of help to his father was what made Vader kill Palpatine. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 20:35, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
  • That's basicly what I'm saying ;) either way we all know the facts.Galedze(Connection Trough The Force) 20:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Ok ( dude I forgot your name since you didn't sign your comment and I'm too lazy to chekc it in history again :p ) hope that answeres your question, PS ( and this is a little of topic here but still, I recently saw the whole thing you woudl leave an all Nebulax and although you did put me on the vandal list for a not so great reason ;)( I don't really care :p ) I guess-know- it's a good thing you decided to stay ;), ok back on topic here. Now perhaps if this subject of Vader's Force power is brought up again ( for like the 1000 ste time or something ) we should perhaps make a solid few theories above the talk page if it is brought up again.Galedze(Connection Trough The Force) 20:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
  • yeah but where already dooing that for like a year and for some strange reason the same question(s) keep coming back, either way let's just let it be for what it is and do wat we always do :p Galedze(Connection Trough The Force) 21:00, 9 March 2007 (UTC)