Forum:SH:Layout Guide restructuring

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Forums > Senate Hall archive > SH:Layout Guide restructuring

The Layout Guide (LG) and the Wookieepedia:Manual of Style (MoS) are easily the two most important article policies. However, the Layout Guide (and the MoS, to an extent), which originates from the early Wookieepedia/Wikipedia era of 2005, has always been the type of policy where more stuff is added all the time and nothing is ever removed or restructured. While parts of the policy are well written, comprehensive, and updated, others are messy and outdated. I came across this while thinking of an LG amendment to implement reference support in Quote templates and realized the LG doesn't just need updating—it needs restructuring. Another big problem is that the main LG page hosts both general rules AND in-universe article specific rules, and the OOU LG duplicates much of the information on the main LG.

Therefore, I've attempted to restructure much of the LG, without really rewriting much at all.

  • Restructuring the Layout Guide(s) into four five distinct sections: to provide some basic structure, I've taken the liberty of inventing four main sections
    1. Article header: everything before the infobox
    2. Article infobox and introduction: everything between the infobox and before the first heading
    3. Article body: everything between the first heading and the contents of the last section the first heading in the bibliography section (Appearances for IU articles, Sources for OOU articles)
      • This might be a bit controversial, I guess. Traditionally, the "body" has referred to all sections containing prose (so not Appearances, Sources etc., but I personally don't think it makes sense to include those sections in the "footer". But I could be convinced otherwise.
    4. Article indexing: this part encompasses everything used for verifiability/citation purposes, i.e. Appearances (IU), Sources (IU, OOU), Notes and references (IU, OOU), and External links (IU, OOU). The succession box must be placed before the Notes and references section due to technical constraints.
    5. Article footer: everything after the contents of the last section
  • New Layout Guide for in-universe (IU) articles: it makes much more sense that there exists three different Layout Guides: one for general rules, one for IU articles, and one for OOU articles. Therefore, I've moved all IU-specific stuff to a fresh page, and the OOU-specific stuff to the OOU LG.
    • I still want users to be able to get a quick overview of article structure even when viewing the IU and OOU guides. Therefore, I've opted to use {{Main}} for sections that have no unique properties in IU vs OOU articles. This reduces information duplication, something that has traditionally been a problem (mainly, due to CTs forgetting to amend the OOU LG, as well).
  • New sections for de facto practices
    • Nomination templates: CAN/GAN/FAN templates have been placed in random orders in the past, and while this is no big deal since they are temporary, it's good to have the Official Order written down somewhere.
    • Table of contents: since virtually every article has a Table of contents (TOC), we might as well note this in the LG. I've also moved the notoc=1 rules from the Top template section here.
    • Sectioning: this is probably the most significant addition of my restructuring so far. However, everything I've added is basically de facto already a rule through precedent.
    • Navboxes: apparently, the navboxes have not been covered in the LG until now.
  • Other Minor Changes: like I said, I'm not trying to bring the entire LG to 2022 in one sweep. However, I figured I could update some relatively insignicant stuff like:
    • Some sections have been moved around: I tried to order the Quotes, Images, and Stub sections in some sort of more logical way.
    • Examples have been updated and added: sections that lack real examples have received one. Existing, outdated sections have been updated
    • Miscellaneous section removed: I realized this is also in the Manual of Style and I feel like it fits better there.
  • What I Haven't Done:
    • I've tried to not completely rewrite any single section. The Quotes section, in particular, is in need of a good rewrite, but I'm saving that for later, including the reference-support-in-quotes issue.

So, to summarize, quite a lot of changes but nothing too major. For reference, here are links to the exact changes:

As always, any feedback is welcome. Given this is a core policy, I am hoping as many of you as possible will weigh in with feedback and proposed changes. 1358 (Talk) 12:55, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

EDIT 10:25, 12 March 2022 (UTC): in response to feedback, the layout has been modified to include a fifth distinct section called "Article bibliography". This part encompasses everything used for verifiability/citation purposes, i.e. Appearances (IU), Sources (IU, OOU), Notes and references (IU, OOU), and External links (IU, OOU). I have also removed the Miscellaneous section as I realized that same text exists in the MoS as well and it's unnecessary to duplicate this imo. 1358 (Talk) 10:25, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

EDIT 21:28, 18 March 2022 (UTC): you can now vote on the approval of the proposed changes. Head over to Forum:CT:Layout Guide restructuring. 1358 (Talk) 21:28, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

  • Well-inspired stuff, ecks. :P Looking forward to this. Imperators II(Talk) 13:15, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Much better. Good work, ecks. Green Tentacle (Talk) 15:07, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
  • This is awesome! Can I suggest that in the IU/OOU guides, sections that have no difference are redirected to the main LG rather than including the subsections. For OOU this would be the Article header; Introduction and infobox; and Article footer sections. Love it and already makes it much clearer on what might need tweaking! Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 16:29, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
    • The reason why I retain the sections along with {{Main}} template is so that users can get a quick overview of the complete IU/OOU article structure. I suppose one option would be to shrink the empty sections into just a bullet list with links to the main LG; this reduces the whitespace while retaining the ability to view the complete article structures. 1358 (Talk) 22:44, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
      • I think something like that would be better, do you think putting just the Section header and then the Main templates line by line for each subsection underneath? The arrows in the main template kind of look like bullet points in that format and achieve a similar result? Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 12:15, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
        • Sorry for the delay getting back to you. Do you mean something like this? It's certainly more compact but I kinda like seeing the headings in the TOC for a quick overview. But it's not really something I have strong feelings about either way. 1358 (Talk) 16:20, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Long overdue. Very nice work, my friend. IFYLOFD (Talk) 16:33, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Looks great! Like that Belaya is used as an example, too. :p Jedi Order ImpacticForce (Talk) 16:48, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
    • It happened to meet my arbitrary criteria of "recently passed status article" + "infobox with more than one reference" + "indented bullets in the infobox". :P 1358 (Talk) 22:44, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Impressive stuff ecks, looks great! Wok142 (talk) 20:24, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
  • My personal thought is that the Article body should just be the prose, ending with Bts. Appearances, Sources, Notes and references should either be part of the footer, or be a separate fifth section to themselves. Otherwise, this looks great. - JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 20:51, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
    • Yeah, this is something I struggled with as well, seeing as that's how the body has been traditionally defined and changing its definition now would no doubt lead to confusion. The reason why it's like this is that I don't feel the Appearances and Sources really fit under the banner of "Article footer", but it's not really a big deal and I'm leaning towards just doing it anyway. Another suggestion on Discord was to create yet another subsection that would encompass Appearances, Sources, and Notes and references, seeing as all these three sections exist for citation/verifiability purposes, and then include External links in the Article footer. 1358 (Talk) 22:44, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
      • I like the option of having Appearances/Sources/Notes and references being their own subsection, with External links being part of the footer. - JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 01:37, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
        • IMO External links should be included in this hypothetical section, seeing as they are all visually the same, serve the same purpose of bullet-listing links, and use the same citation and appearance templates, as opposed to everything else in the footer. Just my two cents. SorcererSupreme21 (talk) 03:09, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
          • Now that I've slept on this, I think I agree. Appearances/Sources/Notes and references/External links are all used for verifiability and they can go under the same heading. Some proposed names for this new heading are "Article citations", "Article appendix" and "Article bibliography". I prefer the last one since "bibliography" perfectly describes all those sections. 1358 (Talk) 10:11, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
            • How about "Article index/ing"? That's would be the more appropriate term in my opinion. By the way, header, body and footer was fine in regards to webdesign terminalogy, but I've got nothing to oppose if you think it need one more section.NanoLuukeCloning facility 12:13, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
              • The problem with using "body" for non-prose sections such as Appearances is it would potentially lead to instant confusion among new status article writers when the older reviewers talk to them about something "in the article's body" and then the writers'd start looking at Appearances and such. It isn't fine with respect to Wookieepedia terminology, as it were. :) Imperators II(Talk) 12:33, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
              • I don't have any strong feelings either way, to be honest, but I feel like bibliography, defined as "the works or a list of the works referred to in a text or consulted by the author in its production", seems like a perfect match, and I also think the word is more familiar to the reader than "index". 1358 (Talk) 17:31, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
                • It could be confusing with the use of Bibliography (redefined by CT last year) as a sub-section of Works (yet to be defined by CT) on Person articles though. NanoLuukeCloning facility 17:48, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
                  • You're right. I've changed it to "indexing". 1358 (Talk) 09:16, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Thank you for doing this, it's much better. Samonic Thrawns Chimaera (Talk) 21:04, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
  • This is, as they say, "a beautiful thing." Though isn't there a way to transclude specific sections of articles, like we did for audiobooks or something? JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 00:20, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
    • I played around with the idea of transclusion as well as having general/IU/OOU tabs in each section, but I decided against it because it simply doesn't seem to work for everything; the issue is that some sections only exist in the general guide while others are unique for the IU/OOU guides. 1358 (Talk) 10:11, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Good stuff. I support this. SorcererSupreme21 (talk) 03:09, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Looks pretty good Rsand 30 (talk) 11:28, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Very nice. One thing I'm not sure about is the placement of {{Spoiler}} and the nomination templates on the same article, which has happened a few times, albeit rarely. I don't believe there's any agreed arrangement currently, but I feel like Spoiler should take precedence given it serves a more important role to unsuspecting readers. Plus, I'd say nomination templates are of the same class as maintenance templates. OOM 224 22:14, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
    • Moved the spoiler template one step up. Don't think there's any benefit in merging the nomination templates with maintenance templates given they have quite different use cases. 1358 (Talk) 09:16, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Finally came around re-reading the current LG (took notes for future CTs...), and reading the updated version. It's a great improvement, well done ecks. I wish we had an status article with an External links that would include a pertinent article as an example, but that's probably something we can change later if it something like that ever reach status. I find it odd that "Sources" isn't featured in the general LG, especially when the OOU LG request to "See Wookieepedia:Layout Guide#Sources for specific formatting rules". I understand why you didn't put Sources in the general page as to make it work you'd have to rewrite the section and harmonize both version... maybe it's something for us to work on right after we're done with this. Anyway, can't wait for the CT... but I fear the logistics involved ^^. NanoLuukeCloning facility 13:45, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
    • Thanks for the feedback! You're right, the Sources part is an oversight on my part. I'm going to have to look into that before the CT. 1358 (Talk) 16:23, 16 March 2022 (UTC)