Forums > Consensus track archive > CT:Pronouns in infobox
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The result of the debate was Support. Immi Thrax
(she/her) 03:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
The result of the debate was Support. Immi Thrax
(she/her) 03:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Add a pronoun field to character infoboxes ({{Character}}), when currently there is only the gender field. This is to accomodate the fact that a character's pronouns do not necessarily indicate the character's gender, so it is inappropriate to assume the gender identity when only pronouns are provided. See also: Forum:SH:Making use of pronouns.
Support
- OOM 224 21:23, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- I had even suggested this recently, so big support. MasterFred
(talk) (he/him) 21:28, 14 January 2023 (UTC) - Imperators II(Talk) 21:28, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- I like this. Might also want to add the field to {{Person}} as well. Dentface (talk) 21:31, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- I was honestly surprised we didn't already implement this when we switched from using "Sex" to "Gender" - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 21:33, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- HeadSpikesWalls (she/they) (talk!) 21:37, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- Samonic
(Talk) 21:37, 14 January 2023 (UTC) - RogueWhistler (talk) 21:47, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- Herasoars(comms) 22:06, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- Editoronthewiki (talk) 22:13, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- This will be a big change, but it's an important one. Recognising the distinction between pronouns and gender is something that will make this community more inclusive and welcoming for marginalized users who face this kind of thing being ignored every day. That's something we should prioritise even if it does mean going back and tweaking a lot of existing stuff, the effort will be worth it. I know a lot of folks might have a gut reaction against it because the way we've assumed gender up until now is so ingrained in them, both in how they write and how they view characters. I know I've similarly struggled with changing such habits when writing in the past, but every time I have made the change I've been surprised at how quickly you pick up a new way of doing things and build it into your writing and researching going forward, not to mention hopefully building it into what assumptions you make about others in the real world. I'll be going back through all my old status articles if this passes and making the necessary changes and checks and if others are struggling to do so for articles that they care about then I'm happy for them to reach out to me for help with fixing up articles or checking sources. It's also worth mentioning that this won't be something that gets done in a day and will take time to implement, the review boards know this and aren't looking to suddenly kill every existing status article that doesn't reflect this. Instead it's something that we'll work through across the wiki together as a community, sometimes in focused projects, sometimes as and when people find it when doing other work. Fear of articles losing status should never stop us from making big changes, especially ones this important. Ayrehead02 (talk) 23:47, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- Pronouns CAN indicate gender, but not always and we should stop assuming that is the case Manoof (he/him/his) 00:17, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- My pronouns do not indicate my gender. We should never be assuming this of others either, fictional or otherwise. —SnowedLightning (they/them) 00:30, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Someone told OOM to add something to the list and he took that personally. NBDani (they/them)Yeager's Repairs 00:36, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, makes sense Fan26 (Talk) 00:53, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 02:24, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Dropbearemma (she/her) 05:23, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- —spookywillowwtalk 07:50, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- LucaRoR (Talk) 08:18, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Rakhsh (talk) 10:45, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- NanoLuukeCloning Facility 14:58, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Braha'tok enthusiast Hello there 21:50, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Supreme Emperor Holocomm 22:23, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- DarthRuiz30 (talk) 03:58, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- The exact implementation and further factors like categories can be figured out in further discussions. Immi Thrax (she/her) 10:54, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Jarhead002 (talk) 21:14, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- grunny@wookieepedia:~$ 21:16, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- This makes sense to me --Vitus InfinitusTalk 21:20, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- Commander Code-8 Hello There! 03:12, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
- Per a brief discussion on Discord, we should also put into practice having the pronouns on character pages in categories. How it should be formatted I'm not an authority on, but an example of how it could be is [[Category:Individuals who go by she/her]] or [[Category:Indiviuals who use she/her]]. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 21:49, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- Or [[Category:Individuals with she/her pronouns]], maybe? RogueWhistler (talk) 21:53, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- I think that would be frankly redundant to Category:Females in this instance. SilverSunbird (talk) 22:33, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- Or [[Category:Individuals with she/her pronouns]], maybe? RogueWhistler (talk) 21:53, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- As far as I'm familiar with, all characters regardless of gender use standard pronouns except two: Eleodie Maracavanya and Tepoh. Their situation, as well as those of members of species like the Chalhuddans who have a different gender alignment, would merit this proposition. I think this situation would work better if the actual use of this slot was limited to characters who fall under that umbrella, because apart from that, there are no actual or potential usages of irregular pronouns, particularly as regards enby characters. SilverSunbird (talk) 22:33, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with SilverSunbird. If the field is redundant to the "Gender" field in 99.9% of all cases, then it is better to just have it for the few characters that do not use standard pronouns. -ThrawnChiss7 Assembly Cupola 22:45, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- To clarify, I'm suggesting to empty the gender field where the gender is only assumed based on a character's pronouns and make use of the pronouns field instead, because a person's pronouns are not necessarily an indication of their gender (I elaborate on this in the linked SH thread, and the Pride resources linked there give further elaboration). OOM 224 22:48, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- But what about characters where both are known? -ThrawnChiss7 Assembly Cupola 22:50, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- The entire point of gendered pronouns is to reveal gender. Keeping that in mind, extrapolating someone's gender from the pronouns used to refer to them is, almost all the time, accurate. (Cases where the narrative makes it clear the viewpoint character cannot tell enough about another character to tell their gender exempted.) SilverSunbird (talk) 22:52, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- But what about characters where both are known? -ThrawnChiss7
- To clarify, I'm suggesting to empty the gender field where the gender is only assumed based on a character's pronouns and make use of the pronouns field instead, because a person's pronouns are not necessarily an indication of their gender (I elaborate on this in the linked SH thread, and the Pride resources linked there give further elaboration). OOM 224 22:48, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- (resetting indent) this argument that pronouns = gender is incorrect though, there's a legends insectoid species whose name escapes me that changes gender, pronouns shift as well. Gender fluid, transgender and non binary people and characters exist. Rhetoric that conflates gender with pronouns only acts to further confuse and muddy the issue and we need to be aware that some of this rhetoric could be hurtful to those in our community who identify as such. The percentages don't matter imo (says someone who loves statistics :'D) on matters like this where people are involved. Manoof (he/him/his) 00:15, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I'm aware of that. I don't think listing pronouns in the infobox is necessary for characters who are not fluid or enby. It may not be necessary for trans characters who are not shown to have a coming-out story either. SilverSunbird (talk) 00:21, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I don't see a reason to make exceptions for characters who meet gender norms imo. There are plenty of cisgender and transgender people who use the "standard" pronouns for their gender and still provide them in bios or when introducing themselves. While I know people don't usually introduce themselves with pronouns in Star Wars, I feel like we can take a page from real life's book here. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 00:54, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thing is, for most people, providing that information is identical to saying, "Hi, I'm female" (or whatever is appropriate), and thus feels redundant. Obviously, for the few who don't fit that's fine. I just think this proposal, as-is, is too broad. (See above: Maracavanya, Tepoh, and Chalhuddans for potential exemptions. There are probably some more, but that's what I personally have seen.) I've never heard of someone with one of the most common genders not wanting to use the associated pronouns. I would say this makes the most sense for irregular or multiple-choice pronoun users. SilverSunbird (talk) 00:59, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I feel being exclusionist in this manner just negates the point of it though. While pronouns are inherently meant to give some indication in regards to gender identity and that is ostensibly the most common case for Star Wars, it feels wrong to limit it to those who are explicitly LGBTQ+, especially since that's not at all how they're used IRL and Star Wars as a franchise is trending on that more positive path. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 04:32, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Someday, someone will invent a more elegant and less awkward way of acknowledging diverse gender identities than pronouns in brackets. I just think this is best suited for those few characters for whom it is actually important (cited above), rather than absolutely everyone without exclusion. And I don't think limiting it to the necessary cases makes it inherently exclusionist. I'm just reminded of the time not too long ago when the rules were "no pronouns at ALL for characters of unspecified gender", which was absolutely ridiculous. SilverSunbird (talk) 04:42, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- The problem is you're then treating anyone outside the male/female binary differently, which is exclusionist to those individuals and treats them as "other" or "outside the norm". They ARE normal, and language to the contrary can and IS harmful! Yes, these are fictional characters who don't care how we write about them, but like all fictional works, they reflect the real world and if we do this to fictional characters, we are effectively doing this for real people as well. Does adding the pronoun for a male/female individual detract from the article? Answer is a definite no. Does NOT adding the pronoun, whilst adding the pronoun to individuals outside of that binary cause harm? Answer is a definite yes. Seems pretty clear to me that there is more harm than good to not use the field for all individuals, and literally no harm to use it for every individual. Yes, there's work involved, but shifts in thinking, behaviour and work will always take a degree of work, and shying away from something like this because of effort is akin to saying "I don't care enough about these people to do the thing". Manoof (he/him/his) 05:02, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I am in no way trying to do that. As I have made clear, I believe it sounds awkward. As I have also made clear, there are only two enby characters in-universe with unique pronouns, and apart from them and members of species with different gender systems who may possibly have special pronouns introduced, it feels redundant. Some people have complicated individual relationships with their gender, and some people don't. Some people feel it's important to share those, and some people don't, and some people see it as self-evident. And that is where I shall leave it off. SilverSunbird (talk) 05:15, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- The problem is you're then treating anyone outside the male/female binary differently, which is exclusionist to those individuals and treats them as "other" or "outside the norm". They ARE normal, and language to the contrary can and IS harmful! Yes, these are fictional characters who don't care how we write about them, but like all fictional works, they reflect the real world and if we do this to fictional characters, we are effectively doing this for real people as well. Does adding the pronoun for a male/female individual detract from the article? Answer is a definite no. Does NOT adding the pronoun, whilst adding the pronoun to individuals outside of that binary cause harm? Answer is a definite yes. Seems pretty clear to me that there is more harm than good to not use the field for all individuals, and literally no harm to use it for every individual. Yes, there's work involved, but shifts in thinking, behaviour and work will always take a degree of work, and shying away from something like this because of effort is akin to saying "I don't care enough about these people to do the thing". Manoof (he/him/his)
- Someday, someone will invent a more elegant and less awkward way of acknowledging diverse gender identities than pronouns in brackets. I just think this is best suited for those few characters for whom it is actually important (cited above), rather than absolutely everyone without exclusion. And I don't think limiting it to the necessary cases makes it inherently exclusionist. I'm just reminded of the time not too long ago when the rules were "no pronouns at ALL for characters of unspecified gender", which was absolutely ridiculous. SilverSunbird (talk) 04:42, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I feel being exclusionist in this manner just negates the point of it though. While pronouns are inherently meant to give some indication in regards to gender identity and that is ostensibly the most common case for Star Wars, it feels wrong to limit it to those who are explicitly LGBTQ+, especially since that's not at all how they're used IRL and Star Wars as a franchise is trending on that more positive path. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 04:32, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thing is, for most people, providing that information is identical to saying, "Hi, I'm female" (or whatever is appropriate), and thus feels redundant. Obviously, for the few who don't fit that's fine. I just think this proposal, as-is, is too broad. (See above: Maracavanya, Tepoh, and Chalhuddans for potential exemptions. There are probably some more, but that's what I personally have seen.) I've never heard of someone with one of the most common genders not wanting to use the associated pronouns. I would say this makes the most sense for irregular or multiple-choice pronoun users. SilverSunbird (talk) 00:59, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I don't see a reason to make exceptions for characters who meet gender norms imo. There are plenty of cisgender and transgender people who use the "standard" pronouns for their gender and still provide them in bios or when introducing themselves. While I know people don't usually introduce themselves with pronouns in Star Wars, I feel like we can take a page from real life's book here. - Thannus (DFaceG) (he/him) (talk) 00:54, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I'm aware of that. I don't think listing pronouns in the infobox is necessary for characters who are not fluid or enby. It may not be necessary for trans characters who are not shown to have a coming-out story either. SilverSunbird (talk) 00:21, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with SilverSunbird. If the field is redundant to the "Gender" field in 99.9% of all cases, then it is better to just have it for the few characters that do not use standard pronouns. -ThrawnChiss7
- Please, let's keep in mind that, while this conversation is about fictional characters, this impacts real people and take that into consideration on how we talk about and phrase things in this discussion Manoof (he/him/his) 05:02, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I am more than ready to check video game dialogues for this info. Rakhsh (talk) 10:51, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Which infobox field should be filled for characters that are only identified by a description such as "father" or "daughter"? Commander Code-8 Hello There! 02:52, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
