Forum:CT:Make Discord the official chat

Forums > Consensus track archive > CT:Make Discord the official chat
This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made in the Senate Hall or new Consensus Track pages rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record.
The result of the debate was Motion withdrawn to allow for more discussion on the SH. Imperators II(Talk) 10:34, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

This CT is to address the Wookieepedia policies for IRC and Discord. These ideas have come up on Discord more than once, but they've only been talked about thus far AFAIK.

Currently, IRC is introduced as:

"Wookieepedia's IRC channel is the wiki's official chat room. In addition to being a general chatroom about Wookieepedia, Star Wars, and various other subjects, the channel is also where official Wookieepedia meetings, Mofferences, are held. IRC is also a quick way to report vandalism to admins as well as asking questions in general."

Further policies set out the rules of IRC use and describes various ways to join and access IRC. In addition, IRC's 1.2 Subchannels defines IRC as the host for channels related to WookieeProjects; status-article-review groups Inquisitorius, AgriCorps, and EduCorps; private administration channels and/or other community groups; and Mofferences.

Additionally, Discord is defined as a complement—secondary—to IRC.

"Wookieepedia's Discord server is a complement to our IRC channels. Our Discord channels exist primarily to foster communication and cooperation between Wookieepedians rather than being a general Star Wars chat. Official Wookieepedia meetings, Mofferences, are held on IRC."

In practice, IRC is no longer utilized as the "official" chat for editors. Most editors rarely or never utilize IRC outside of Mofferences, or only utilize IRC for specific purposes that current policy requires take place on IRC. Discord is where the majority of Wook chat takes places, including for the purpose of reporting vandalism. Long-time Wooks hold many fond and not-so-fond memories of IRC, but changes in technology usage since Wookieepedia began have made IRC less common in usage, and there is a learning curve for people new to IRC. Discord, on the other hand, has fewer barriers to use—for instance, there is only one Discord with support on multiple platforms. Access to IRC requires navigating many options for which client is compatible with your preferred device, and has a significant drawback for logging purposes—if you aren't connected 24/7 or have access to an official bot, you are excluded from knowing what conversations have taken place; this is not the case for Discord. As with IRC, Discord has options for using bots, differing levels of user access rights/roles, private channels, etc.

The proposal is to do two things:

  • Make Discord our official chat: The introduction of Wookieepedia:Discord would reflect this change, subject to copy-editing and refinement through discussion: "Wookieepedia's Discord server is our official chat. In addition to being a general chatroom about Wookieepedia, Star Wars, and various other subjects, the server hosts official meetings and project discussion groups. It is also a quick way to report vandalism to admins as well as asking questions in general about using the site. The Discord server fosters communication and cooperation between Wookieepedians."
  • Retire use of IRC: Wookieepedia would no longer utilize IRC as the official chat room or for any official purposes, and all matters currently hosted on IRC would relocate to Discord.

However, there is another possibility:

  • Make Discord the official chat and maintain IRC as the complement: What it says on the tin. Basically, do a switcheroo on their roles.

The default is to leave things as-is; that is, if you vote "oppose" to both, there would be no change. Please make sure you vote to support one option only. Immi Thrax (talk) 01:40, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Make Discord our official chat and retire use of IRC

Support

  1. Immi Thrax (talk) 01:40, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
  2. Could not figure it out for the life of me. SilverSunbird (talk) 01:43, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
  3. IRC is so archaic. If we want to build an open and stronger community, we need accessible tools. And Discord is just that. Sure, I've heard the arguments against it in the past, but those are heavily outweighed by the benefits, IMO. This is the way to move forward. --NanoLuukeCloning facility 01:51, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Oppose

Make Discord the official chat and maintain IRC as the complement

Support

  1. It's wrong to make people having to register with Discord Inc., an American company, just to appeal a block on the wiki or participate in Mofferences, a series of real-time CTs like this one that can have very significant impact on wiki policies. For the appeal of blocks, it's best if the matter goes to IRC instead of flooding Discord's #help channel, which is dedicated to helping out new editors. Not only would it burden that channel, but it just really wouldn't look good to newcomers if the first thing they see on Wookieepedia's Discord is someone appealing their block, considering that blocks are usually to handed out to angry, disruptive, and ignorant people for good reasons. For Mofferences, the specifics for muting and voting on Discord aren't even thought out. In addition to that, people should never be made to surrender information to some corporation to take part in CTs, the official procedure for deciding community consensus on Wookieepedia. The learning curve involved in using IRC is a good thing; as opposed to near-mindlessly clicking a few buttons and giving away your email address and such, you've got to focus your mind in setting up IRC, finding the right client, downloading the software, getting it to work etc. Essentially, I think of the limited accessibility as a sort of filter. All you need to do to join IRC for a Mofference is give yourself a dozen minutes to set it up. OOM 224 ༼༽talk༼༽ 06:18, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Oppose

  1. Immi Thrax (talk) 01:42, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
  2. NanoLuukeCloning facility 01:51, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

  • I have a concern regarding the complete retirement of IRC. Is Discord capable of replicating the funtionality that allows IRC to facilitate Mofferences? - AV-6R7 (talk) 01:50, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
    • Echoing AV here. This proposal leaves Mofferences out of the equation. RattsT (talk) 01:57, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
    • This is also my main concern. I'm sure the admins know more info about how removing IRC can heavily affect Mofferences and other official meetings. --Vitus InfinitusTalk 02:00, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
      • I don't want to point to a specific bot because I don't have enough experience with ones related to this, so I could be pointing to one that actually isn't... good... but searching turns up many potential bots that could be used for various purposes, whether an all-in-one or multiples. You can browse Discord bots here. Immi Thrax (talk) 02:13, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
    • I have no issue putting IRC out to pasture, but I'm gonna go on record here as well in that I'd like to see the plan for future Mofferences addressed before I vote on this. IFYLOFD (Talk) 02:27, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
    • As I suggested on Discord (wink, wink), we could have a Mofference channel that would be put on read only during someone presentation, with user roles tailored to allow only admins and speaker to write. I think that we could find similar tools essential to hold a Mofference for Discord. --NanoLuukeCloning facility 02:29, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
      • Iseewhatyoudidthere. And ooooh it occurs to me, bots can do color things--we could assign colors to whoever is currently making the proposal to help distinguish them. I honestly think we could do more and make them far more accessible (such as visually accessible) via Discord. Immi Thrax (talk) 02:42, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
  • This being divided into two votes is unnecessary. Also, a voter can oppose twice but only support one? It would be proper if you unified this into a proposal with the 3 options. Regarding the proposal itself, I echo the doubts of the folks above. GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Winterz (talk) 02:16, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
    • I'm not sure what you're suggesting would look like—could you explain further what you have in mind? Immi Thrax (talk) 02:21, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
      • Just have a vote with: Option A, Option B, Oppose both proposals GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Winterz (talk) 03:33, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
        • OH! That would be so much cleaner, yes, thank you! I'll doublecheck with the admins on how to properly make that change. Immi Thrax (talk) 04:03, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
    • I agree that it should be one vote with 3 options instead. Also, I've been away for a while and haven't used IRC in about 10 years, so if anyone can refresh my memory on the specific functionality that IRC has that helps facilitate the Mofferences I'd appreciate it. --Jedimca0(Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 02:22, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
      • There is a bot who help handle the debate and the suffrage, mostly. --NanoLuukeCloning facility 02:30, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
      • I could be wrong about this, but I don't think IRC itself has any built-in functionality, going by how we use a bot for that purpose instead. So, switching to Discord would be a switch to using a different bot to tally votes. Discord has built-in functionality relating to muting/unmuting "speakers" (though I couldn't describe exactly what, not being a server op myself.) For instance, the info channel is read-only, and roles can be assigned for who can and can't chat. Hope that helps! Former mIRC user myself and it's been a long time. Immi Thrax (talk) 02:34, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
        • On discord you can get or build bots for all of that. Important note, to echo some of the discussion on discord just now, if a decision is made to fully move to discord it doesn't have to be instant. This is something we can and should take the time to do properly, if we decide to do it. --Jedimca0(Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 02:39, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
  • I expressed this concerns over Discord, but before removing ourselves from IRC I would first want to see how a Mofference could be held over Discord. Another point I would like to see being discussed is how review panels and WookieeProjects will be handled with a complete transition to Discord.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 03:57, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
    • So you want... A Moff Trial. My intention was that those things would take place on Discord in channels, but we would need determine if they would be open for anyone, read-only unless part of the team, or fully private. (I wasn't sure what level of detail this should go to, and as pointed out on—yep, Discord!—ought to have been a Senate Hall first to sort out these details.) Immi Thrax (talk) 04:03, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
      • I have the same concerns as Ruiz. We need to decide what to do with our review board meetings before going ahead with such a major change. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 06:07, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

It is unfortunate that those who use IRC regularly, particularly the review board members, were not consulted beforehand, from what I can see. It would be appropriate to use the SH to poll for opinions before starting the vote. You (Immi) don't personally use IRC (and have never tried, as far as I know), so I'm not sure why you are rallying against something that doesn't really affect you. I'm not really sure if there is any downside in keeping IRC for those who prefer to use it. IRC has outlived a number of chat platforms and I would not be surprised to see it outlive Discord as well. If you're worried about missing out on what happens on IRC, we can either enable message history in the relay channel or you could give IRC a shot. I also echo OOM's views in their vote above. In addition, the appropriate way to set up this vote would be to have one vote for making Discord official, and then another, simple-majority vote for determining whether to keep IRC as an alternative. 1358 (Talk) 07:44, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

  • I want to echo ecks' concerns on this. There are a lot of logistics involved in such a switch, like the Mofference, review board meetings, and the matter of Discord being closed-source. While I'm open to the possibility of retiring IRC at some point, this really should have been an SH thread beforehand to test the water and see if this is even a viable option. Tommy-Macaroni 08:30, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Just as ecks said, we could enable message history for the IRC channel in Discord. We could even integrate review bodies or WookieeProjects to Discord and have them relayed to IRC just as our IRC channel if they wished. I'm also open to the possibility of retiring IRC, but this requires a lot of discussion. Also I'm not against consolidating everything on Discord, but keeping IRC as an alternative for anyone who wants to use it.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 08:38, 5 April 2021 (UTC)