Forum:CT:Fantasy Flight Games

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This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made in the Senate Hall or new Consensus Track pages rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record.
The result of the debate was Support proposal. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 16:57, August 22, 2020 (UTC)

The time has finally come to decide the fate of Fantasy Flight Games material here on Wookieepedia. Myself and fellow administrators Toprawa and Ralltiir and Tommy-Macaroni have spent considerable time over the last few weeks and months going through FFG's entire catalogue of products and analyzing how best to treat each of the lines, and in many cases, individual products or even cards. The result of this collaboration is a policy page that comprehensively details how we will treat each currently released Fantasy Flight Games Star Wars product and guidelines on how to determine the canon status of future products. This CT will consist of a single vote in support or opposition of the entire policy page, with our reasoning for how each product line is treated given below. It is possible that this may not be the last FFG vote, as future products may not easily fall within the guidelines; however, this should cover all our current concerns and allow us to confidently start incorporating FFG material that, in many places, has been neglected up until now due to uncertainty.

Our overall philosophy when crafting this policy page was that the more recent an FFG product, the stronger the argument for it to be canon. However, it is also important to recognize that certain products are released purely for mechanical reasons rather than lore ones and that there is no clear-cut line in Fantasy Flight's production run as to when they stopped producing Legends material. It is also worth noting that ideally we would not need to have this vote, as Wookieepedia does not claim to have any authority to make such decisions and should avoid doing so in every way possible. However, as no clear or definitive statement has been released by Lucasfilm or the Story Group, we must make some decision about how we incorporate this large volume of material, especially the entirely new material it includes, into Wookieepedia. If a clear and definitive statement is released, then it will of course overrule this policy.

The proposed policy page can be found here.

Roleplaying games

The most significant product line in this vote is the line of roleplaying books and its related ephemera, as it contains by far the most material for us to deal with. Due to the line's heavy use of Legends story elements post-April 2014, it cannot simply be treated as all canon, and indeed the sheer amount of information contained within each product makes a ruling on it very complex. Important points to consider are as follows:

  • Significant canon content did not appear in the books until 2016. There are very brief mentions of canon material prior to this, but only in game mechanics or images, which can mostly be dismissed as "window dressing" and ignored.
    • The main exception to this is Keeping the Peace in December 2015, but this book features only a single page of significant canon content on a single subject, which can be cleanly split from the rest of the Legends material in the book.
  • Significant Legends story content ceases to appear for the most part post-2016, with most of the Legends material beyond this point being equipment or ships that have no real impact on story or continuity.
  • 2016 material contains both Legends and canon intermixed, sometimes within the same paragraph. Dividing the book into canon and Legends would need to be done line by line, a task that is vastly impractical and would be almost impossible to decipher for new users.
  • 2016 material in some cases also makes clear acknowledgement of trying to be canon, with many references to Legends information in Nexus of Power being "mythical" or "impossible to prove" and one instance of a sidebar clearly marking a section as pulling from Legends and being non-canonical.
  • Adventure modules released by Fantasy Flight Games contain a single continuous story, and so splitting the subjects that appear in them between canon and Legends is impossible.

As such, it is our feeling that the RPG material released in 2014 and 2015, except for the few brief canon-exclusive subjects mentioned, should all be treated as exclusively Legends. Likewise, all material from 2017 onward should be treated exclusively as canon. There is no perfectly ideal solution to the 2016 material, but the most practical solution, and the one that keeps everyone happy, is to treat all content from the year, bar canon-exclusive subjects, as both canon and Legends in the same way that we do for TCW and the films. The exception to this is The Force Awakens Beginners Game, which is very clearly entirely canon. This solution may lead to some cases of conflicting sources arising, but we believe it will ultimately cause far less of a headache than any other solution and is the most practical to implement.

Miniatures games, board games and Star Wars: The Card Game

For most of the remaining product lines, we went through each product from April 25, 2014 onward one at a time to assess how we should treat them. Due to the limited and more distinct sections of lore in these products, they can be cleanly divided far more easily than the RPG material. Still taking the 2016 "turning point" into account, we also looked at the ratio of canon to Legends in each product, treating exclusively Legends products as such, but generally defaulting to canon for all other products where possible.

A few products contained both Legends and canon story elements that we felt were incompatible, particularly Conversion Kits that re-released variants of older material as more of a mechanical update than a lore one. For these we have elected to split the product, with new material defaulting to canon, but Legends exclusive material remaining as such. This avoids all the most egregious cases of strongly Legends material getting a canon article, with the split being easy to work out due to the low number of subjects appearing.

Remaining products

  • Both Star Wars: Destiny and Star Wars: Legion were released much later after the start of the new canon and neither contains any problematic Legends material. As such, we foresee no issues in marking all products in these lines as canon.
  • Star Wars: Empire vs. Rebellion contains only content from the Original Trilogy films, and so as a post-2014 product can be treated as canon without issue.

Implementation of new policy page

The new policy page will be linked to from the "What about...?" section of the Canon policy. However, some of the other content found in the section has also become obsolete and is no longer necessary to include. Just about everything listed in this section was a matter of question at the time of the Legends discontinuation, so it was necessary to define all these things then, but no longer. Specifically, there is no question that Son of Dathomir is now Canon and that Lucasfilm's Legends-era TV series are not Canon. The only things that still need to be listed for clarification are the film novelizations, the proposed policy on Fantasy Flight Games material, and Star Wars: The Old Republic, since it's still ongoing, and these all need some updating. Therefore, as part of this vote we propose the "What about...?" section will now read as follows:

Certain sources previously released as part of the Expanded Universe may remain unclear to readers as to whether they are now considered to be canon. Wookieepedia considers the following, based on statements made by personnel associated with Lucasfilm or its licensees. This section may require updating as Lucasfilm releases new updates.

  • Film novelizations. Del Rey has stated that the original film novelizations "are canon where they align with what is seen on screen in the 6 films and the Clone Wars animated movie." As these novelizations contain many supplementary details not found in the films themselves, Wookieepedia treats them as Legends material in whole.
  • Star Wars: The Old Republic. According to GameSpot, a Lucasfilm representative has confirmed that the ongoing Star Wars: The Old Republic video game remains part of the Expanded Universe, saying, "[A]s far as The Old Republic MMO is concerned, nothing is going to change. [TOR] has always been a part of the Expanded Universe, and that's not going to change."
  • Fantasy Flight Games. Lucasfilm has not issued any definitive declarations regarding the canon status of roleplaying and gaming material published by Fantasy Flight Games, so this material remains publicly undetermined. Please refer to this page to see how Wookieepedia documents Fantasy Flight Games source material.

Support

  1. As co-proposer. Ayrehead02 (talk) 16:23, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  2. --Rakhsh (talk) 16:30, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  3. CIS roundel Erebus Chronus Open frequency 16:31, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  4. Fully support.--Vitus InfinitusTalk 16:31, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  5. Makes sense to me. Thank you for spending so much time on this. VergenceScatter (talk) 16:32, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  6. I've chipped in with looking over some sources, but this is really Ayre and Tope's achievement, and they should be really proud of their efforts here. This is a massive undertaking, one that we've been putting off for some time, but in lieu of any official word from FFG, we really have to make some sort of decision ourselves. As the CT says, this is by no means clean or simple, but me, Tope, and Ayre agree this is the most practical and logical solution to this mess. Tommy-Macaroni 16:33, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  7. I've been watching the process happen live for some time, and it's truly impressive. This has to be one of the most complex, thought-out, and well-researched policies ever written for the wiki. This is going to be a huge step in the right direction. MasterFredCommerce Guild(talk) 16:35, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  8. It is unfortunate that the LucasFilm Story Group hasn't been able to solve this issue, but the Wookieepedia Story Group has done an excellent job on this proposal. I've been observing the process myself and I can safely say that this is probably the most researched and well-prepared CT in the history of the wiki. Superb job by all three. 1358 (Talk) 16:36, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  9. JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 16:37, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  10. CIS roundel OOM 224 ༼༽{talk}༼༽ 16:38, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  11. Outstanding work. As someone on the outside and little knowledge of the topic in question, I think that your explanation and solution was well-thought out, and I appreciate your dedication to the subject. TK-462 (talk) 16:44, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  12. Wookieepedia Story Group. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 16:45, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  13. --Lewisr (talk) 16:49, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  14. Braha'tok enthusiast (Hello there) 16:57, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  15. Read the whole thing, and knowing it's only the tip of a workload iceberg, I'm really impressed by this. Very glad this is settled too. --NanoLuukeCloning facility 16:58, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  16. Excellent work. Glad we can finally address this. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 16:58, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  17. --Editoronthewiki (talk) 17:01, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  18. AV-6R7Crew Pit 17:17, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  19. This is very impressive, I think it's absolutely the right call. Wok142 (talk) 17:24, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  20. [applauds] SilverSunbird (talk) 17:30, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  21. 01miki10 Open comlink 17:31, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  22. Mr Star Wars AminoRepublic (talk) 17:55, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  23. This was no simple task, and the three administrators who worked so diligently on this deserve all the respect I can offer up. This effort is much needed and worthy of recognition in the Archives of the Jedi Order. RattsT (talk) 19:25, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  24. Per Tommy, ferd, and ecks. Imperators II(Talk) 20:17, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  25. It's a shame that this situation is necessary, but this proposal is very well researched and written. Most impressive. Zed42 (talk) 22:49, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  26. You've all done a phenomenal job on this proposal. Very impressive, and wholeheartedly gets my support. Supreme Emperor (talk) 00:05, August 18, 2020 (UTC)
  27. Cwedin(talk) 00:11, August 18, 2020 (UTC)
  28. Fantastic effort that was put into this, cheers for that! —Tomotron Revanchist Sith (Star Forge) 00:44, August 18, 2020 (UTC)
  29. As someone who did some research a while ago about this topic, I pretty much came to the same conclusion. This is really an impressive work, thanks for doing this amazing work.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 01:34, August 18, 2020 (UTC)
  30. Damn. Kudos to those involved in crafting this. Fan26 (Talk) 02:08, August 18, 2020 (UTC)
  31. Per everyone above. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 10:23, August 18, 2020 (UTC)
  32. Corellian PremierJedi symbolThe Force will be with you always 19:15, August 19, 2020 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

  • I've myself looked into this issue and attempted to address it in Senate Halls before, and I've reviewed the work they've done. This is definitely the best way to do things.--Vitus InfinitusTalk 16:56, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  • Due to inactivity I am ineligible to vote, however, if I could I would definitely vote in favor of this!Icon Faction ImperialCommander Boots 22:20, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
  • Just wanted to note that the link to No Disintegrations on that policy page points to a disambiguation page and should be fixed. SilverSunbird (talk) 00:26, August 18, 2020 (UTC)
  • What was the policy behind putting C-ROC Cruiser Expansion Pack and Imperial Assault Carrier Expansion Pack only into cannon instead of both? I do not see any reason it shouldn't be both. Especially that two pilots in Gozanti are Legends only and only one cannon only, when Croc have 3 legends pilots to 2 Canon pilots. (Excluding pilots introduced only in ffg material) --Elitesqadron (talk) 08:10, August 18, 2020 (UTC)
    • We put both packs as canon as they are based primarily around canon-exclusive vehicles. Any such product is clearly meant to be canon. Ayrehead02 (talk) 09:25, August 18, 2020 (UTC)