This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was merge Death Field to Force Drain.—Silly Dan (talk) 04:19, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Death Field (talk - history - links - logs)
This is obviously not a new power, and is only mentioned as game mechanics for the KOTOR games. This is basically just splitting up one power under different names. IU, the force-user is just getting better at the power, they're not learning a new one. Therefore, these advancement force powers should all be merged or redirected to the more prevalent name with maybe a minor mention of what an advanced form of the power was called. This VFD will also apply to other advanced forms of one universal power such as Force Wave and Force lightning/Legends#Force Storm which only seem to be advanced forms of Force push and Force lightning respectfully. Additionally, we need to remove that male Exile image from the Death Field page.
Keep
- I've gotta disagree here (see Comments). Evir Daal 13:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Kuralyov 04:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- KEJ 23:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- Either we make a major decision to start merging power variants, or this one has as much right of life as any of the multitude of Telekinesis variants. DarthMRN 02:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
- I'd be in favor of the first one. - Lord Hydronium 07:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Merge
- --1337l3g0m4n 20:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)Same as directly below
- Cull Tremayne 02:23, 24 March 2007 (UTC) -- With Force Drain. This would also apply to "greater powers" such as Force storm.
- Because I see that this is a good way to actually make decent Force power articles. Atarumaster88
(Audience Chamber) 03:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC) - .... 03:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
- Green Tentacle (Talk) 16:18, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
- Per everyone else. Wildyoda 15:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- --Shaelas(Ahto City)
22:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC) - Cutch 05:46, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- I need a name (Complain here) 23:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
00:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)- --Windu223 23:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
- Jinko 01:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
- Greyman(Paratus) 12:13, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
- —Xwing328(Talk) 01:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
- I think we should merge down Force "powers" even further, but I don't think there would be a lot of support. - Lord Hydronium 20:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
- You would certainly get it from me. jSarek 00:47, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm, guess I haven't voted on this yet. jSarek 00:47, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Redirect
Delete
Dr. Know. Deletion is a necessity because this absically is another power with a different name. —Unsigned comment by 88.107.87.50 (talk • contribs)(anonymous user)
Comments
- Other articles this would apply to (ie need to be merged or redirected): Force Blow, Force Repulse, Force Wave, Force Breach, Force Confusion, Force Persuasion, Protection Bubble, Force Defend, Force Stasis, Force Stasis Field, Force Shock, Chain Lightning, Force Affliction, Force Plague, Force Horror, and Force Insanity. If you find any others, you can put them here. Cull Tremayne 02:35, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
- There is a difference between these advanced powers and the basic ones, since 1) they are much more potent and 2) they don't always require conscious effort to be used. Nihilus's Death Field, for example, was an ambient ability which affected his surroundings whether he wished it or not. Evir Daal 13:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- I think you're totally missing the point here. The power being more potent doesn't declare it as an all new power. They're not using the force in a different manner, they're just using the same power, but with more force behind it (sorry for the pun). It's just an advanced form of the exact same talent. As I said in the introduction of this VfD, "This is obviously not a new power, and is only mentioned as game mechanics for the KOTOR games." and "IU [In-universe], the force-user is just getting better at the power, they're not learning a new one." Do you understand what I'm saying here? Just because Nihilius was extremely talented at Force Drain doesn't mean that it's an entirely new power. Cull Tremayne 21:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- I dunno, I mean, we have different words for a breeze and a storm, even though both describe wind, since one is stronger than the other. In the same way, there is a difference between draining the life of a person or that of a planet. Palpatine's and Nihilus's life drain also seemed to work differently than that of others, since it was a passive ability, not one that had to be consciously activated. Also, in Nihilus's case, there seemed to be some connection to him being a "Hole in the Force". It's not that I don't see what you're saying, I just don't agree. Evir Daal 11:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- Okay, but then would we have separate articles on Wikipedia for Breeze and Wind? I don't think so. So that doesn't hold up. If this goes through (and it looks like it will), a special mention will be made on Force Drain regarding Nihilius special affinity for the power. I'm just saying that we don't need an article solely devoted to one person's amazing talent with a Force power. Cull Tremayne 22:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- Even if we disregard relative potency, I'd say there is a difference, as Drain was an active ability, while, for example, Palpatine's "Death Field" over Byss was passive. But I'm not gonna fight if this goes through, I just want to give my view. Evir Daal 11:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- I get you, I just want you to understand my view on the matter, and when this does go through, rest assured that we'll mention Palpatine's and Nihilius' more potent use of Force Drain. Besides, you still seem to only be differentiating on the aspect of relative talent at the ability. I still submit that it's not a new Force power, just a more potent use of it. Cull Tremayne 00:56, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
- No, then I haven't made myself clear. I'd still say it's different, since in, say, Palpatine's case "Death Field"'s not a combat technique comparable to Lightning or other such powers, but a slowly draining, long-term, long-range ability designed not primarily to harm, but to gather Force energy (albeit at the cost of innocent lives), whereas Drain is an immediate, personal combat-oriented power. The purposes of these powers and their application are really quite different, even though their basic workings are quite similar. Evir Daal 09:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not comparing it to "lightning" or some "other such powers". I'm comparing it to Force Drain as you pointed out. Just because someone uses it in a slightly different way does not make it a new power. So your saying that if someone uses Force Lightning to say...knock out an electrical conduit as opposed to killing someone then it's an "all new power"? I have to disagree. The "purpose" and the "power" are irrelevant as I have already said, as long as the "use" of the Force power is the same. The "potency" factor means nothing, it just means that people like Palpatine and Nihilius were more talented with it, even up to the point where they could use it without thinking. The "purpose" argument also means nothing because, of course you can use a power in different ways. For Force pull you can pull a weapon from a stormtrooper's hand or slowly pull a bedrock of stone out from its base. Does that make each use of it is an "all new power"? I have to say no, and that I still disagree with your standpoint. Cull Tremayne 04:35, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- No, then I haven't made myself clear. I'd still say it's different, since in, say, Palpatine's case "Death Field"'s not a combat technique comparable to Lightning or other such powers, but a slowly draining, long-term, long-range ability designed not primarily to harm, but to gather Force energy (albeit at the cost of innocent lives), whereas Drain is an immediate, personal combat-oriented power. The purposes of these powers and their application are really quite different, even though their basic workings are quite similar. Evir Daal 09:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
- I get you, I just want you to understand my view on the matter, and when this does go through, rest assured that we'll mention Palpatine's and Nihilius' more potent use of Force Drain. Besides, you still seem to only be differentiating on the aspect of relative talent at the ability. I still submit that it's not a new Force power, just a more potent use of it. Cull Tremayne 00:56, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
- Even if we disregard relative potency, I'd say there is a difference, as Drain was an active ability, while, for example, Palpatine's "Death Field" over Byss was passive. But I'm not gonna fight if this goes through, I just want to give my view. Evir Daal 11:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Okay, but then would we have separate articles on Wikipedia for Breeze and Wind? I don't think so. So that doesn't hold up. If this goes through (and it looks like it will), a special mention will be made on Force Drain regarding Nihilius special affinity for the power. I'm just saying that we don't need an article solely devoted to one person's amazing talent with a Force power. Cull Tremayne 22:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- I dunno, I mean, we have different words for a breeze and a storm, even though both describe wind, since one is stronger than the other. In the same way, there is a difference between draining the life of a person or that of a planet. Palpatine's and Nihilus's life drain also seemed to work differently than that of others, since it was a passive ability, not one that had to be consciously activated. Also, in Nihilus's case, there seemed to be some connection to him being a "Hole in the Force". It's not that I don't see what you're saying, I just don't agree. Evir Daal 11:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- I think you're totally missing the point here. The power being more potent doesn't declare it as an all new power. They're not using the force in a different manner, they're just using the same power, but with more force behind it (sorry for the pun). It's just an advanced form of the exact same talent. As I said in the introduction of this VfD, "This is obviously not a new power, and is only mentioned as game mechanics for the KOTOR games." and "IU [In-universe], the force-user is just getting better at the power, they're not learning a new one." Do you understand what I'm saying here? Just because Nihilius was extremely talented at Force Drain doesn't mean that it's an entirely new power. Cull Tremayne 21:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- There is a difference between these advanced powers and the basic ones, since 1) they are much more potent and 2) they don't always require conscious effort to be used. Nihilus's Death Field, for example, was an ambient ability which affected his surroundings whether he wished it or not. Evir Daal 13:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Evir, are you saying that Dorsk 81's use of the Force to push Pellaeon's Star Destroyers away from the Jedi Praxeum was different than the Force Push used by Yoda to knock Palpy into his chair in Ep. III? That seems unlikely. Atarumaster88 04:38, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- No. That's not what I mean at all, but I do think there are important differences between Drain and Death Field. One is a weapon, while the other... Ah, we're obviously not getting through to each other, and no one's gonna change his mind now anyway. Let's just call it quits, shall we? I still don't agree, but I'll bow to consensus. Evir Daal 07:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
- One is a weapon, while the other... can also be used as a weapon if need be? Yes, my heart is hardened, and you don't make much sense. :-P Cull Tremayne 13:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
- From a certain point of view, you're the one not making sense. :) But let's just end it here, shall we? Nothing constructive will come out of continuing this discussion. I will try to make my point one final time, then I give up. Compare it to strategic and tactical bombing, which have separate articles on Wikipedia, instead of just one big "bombing" article. This is because they employ different resources on a vastly different scale and, most importantly, with entirely different aims, even if the basic principle of dropping explosives from the air is the same. Thank you. Evir Daal 14:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
- Calm sir, ":-P" indicates sarcasm. I'd agree with you, except for, I think in your analogy, "bombing" is like the Force. Tactical and Strategic are two separate powers, used in different ways. Where Force Lightning electrocutes the person, Force Drain saps their energy. In our case, Force Drain saps their energy, Death Field saps their energy on a wide scale and can be done without much effort by masters. They wouldn't have an article on "Strategic bombing" and then another article on "Strategic bombing on a wide scale". Cull Tremayne 14:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
- I intended my first sentences to be a joke, too, sorry if I offended you. Basic is not my native tongue, so I may be unfamiliar with some of its finer nuances. Anyway, it's clear our discussion isn't going anywhere, we're just repeating ourselves. Can we just leave this topic? I will support a majority decision, even if I don't agree with it privately. Evir Daal 17:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
- Calm sir, ":-P" indicates sarcasm. I'd agree with you, except for, I think in your analogy, "bombing" is like the Force. Tactical and Strategic are two separate powers, used in different ways. Where Force Lightning electrocutes the person, Force Drain saps their energy. In our case, Force Drain saps their energy, Death Field saps their energy on a wide scale and can be done without much effort by masters. They wouldn't have an article on "Strategic bombing" and then another article on "Strategic bombing on a wide scale". Cull Tremayne 14:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
- From a certain point of view, you're the one not making sense. :) But let's just end it here, shall we? Nothing constructive will come out of continuing this discussion. I will try to make my point one final time, then I give up. Compare it to strategic and tactical bombing, which have separate articles on Wikipedia, instead of just one big "bombing" article. This is because they employ different resources on a vastly different scale and, most importantly, with entirely different aims, even if the basic principle of dropping explosives from the air is the same. Thank you. Evir Daal 14:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
- One is a weapon, while the other... can also be used as a weapon if need be? Yes, my heart is hardened, and you don't make much sense. :-P Cull Tremayne 13:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
- No. That's not what I mean at all, but I do think there are important differences between Drain and Death Field. One is a weapon, while the other... Ah, we're obviously not getting through to each other, and no one's gonna change his mind now anyway. Let's just call it quits, shall we? I still don't agree, but I'll bow to consensus. Evir Daal 07:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)