- The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a good article nomination that was unsuccessful. Please do not modify it.
Unidentified Gran (Rimmer's Rest cantina)
- Nominated by: Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 04:14, August 15, 2013 (UTC)
- Nomination comments: Dark Forces II cutscene character.
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Exiled Jedi
You have some redirects in this article. You can go to the gadgets tab of your preferences to highlight all redirects orange so that you can fix them.- How's that?--Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 03:10, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
You should not use unidentified in the in-universe portion of the article.- Done.--Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 03:10, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
- If you mention something in the infobox you need to mention it in the article as well. The skin color should be included in the personality and traits section.
- How's that?--Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 03:10, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
I do not believe that you can use the game to source the date to 5 ABY. You need to find another source.- Mm, I used the Chronology here. I don't remember if it stated this exact this scene, but since it mentions the entire campaign, I thought it would suffice. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 03:10, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
- You accidently sourced the first sentence to the Chronology as well, I fixed the source for you.--Exiled Jedi
(Greetings) 04:58, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
- You accidently sourced the first sentence to the Chronology as well, I fixed the source for you.--Exiled Jedi
- Mm, I used the Chronology here. I don't remember if it stated this exact this scene, but since it mentions the entire campaign, I thought it would suffice. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 03:10, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
You should not have speculation in articles. Things such as "perhaps indicating the Gran mercenary's future had he stuck with 88." need to be modified to include only information that can be obtained from the original source. Please go through the article and check for similar elements.- Removed the mentioned bit, but I have to scan through the rest for more a bit later. How's it look so far? edit: Fixed a little bit more that I believed pertained to this. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 03:10, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
- It looks better, I will note any speculation I find as I continue my review.--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 04:58, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
- It looks better, I will note any speculation I find as I continue my review.--Exiled Jedi
- Removed the mentioned bit, but I have to scan through the rest for more a bit later. How's it look so far? edit: Fixed a little bit more that I believed pertained to this. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 03:10, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
- I will continue my review after you fix these objections.--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 15:21, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
After referencing a source the first time you can use <ref name="Source tag" /> for future references. Please take care of that for the article.- I believe I just did.
- You got most of them.--Exiled Jedi
(Greetings) 18:25, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- You got most of them.--Exiled Jedi
- I believe I just did.
The last sentence of the second paragraph of the biography is not sourced.- It should be now.
Please try to remove uses of this in the in-universe portion of the article, since the use of this implies present tense.- I believe I have corrected all appearances, minus the the two uses at the beginning of the intro and the first Bio paragraph. Wouldn't seem to work well as "The Gran mercenary", but you know that I'm sure and I guess I'm just repeating that for my sake.
- Actually, those need to be changed as well, I switched them out for "a".--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 18:25, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- Not going to change it back, but I sorta want to challenge this, or at least ask about it. When trying to work this article as a Good Article I was using Unidentified New Republic commander as a base in some ways, in how this article should be formatted (From the Article: "This Human male was a..."). However, I suppose it can be assumed whoever reviewed that article simply missed it? THough now, glancing at other GAs, this one perhaps seems to be... Not an exception, but, a miss. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 20:13, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- It might have something to do with the fact that the article was nominated around four years ago, but you can ask an AgriCorps member to make sure I am correct.--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 01:17, August 27, 2013 (UTC)
- It might have something to do with the fact that the article was nominated around four years ago, but you can ask an AgriCorps member to make sure I am correct.--Exiled Jedi
- Not going to change it back, but I sorta want to challenge this, or at least ask about it. When trying to work this article as a Good Article I was using Unidentified New Republic commander as a base in some ways, in how this article should be formatted (From the Article: "This Human male was a..."). However, I suppose it can be assumed whoever reviewed that article simply missed it? THough now, glancing at other GAs, this one perhaps seems to be... Not an exception, but, a miss. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 20:13, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, those need to be changed as well, I switched them out for "a".--Exiled Jedi
- I believe I have corrected all appearances, minus the the two uses at the beginning of the intro and the first Bio paragraph. Wouldn't seem to work well as "The Gran mercenary", but you know that I'm sure and I guess I'm just repeating that for my sake.
I think that the biography could be cut down slightly to focus on the mercenary. The context about 8t88 and Kyle is important, but it could be condensed.- Mm, I tried to condense it a bit. I shortened the information about Jerec and cut out the mentioning of Grentho as he really wasn't a part of the scene. Left Fett in though, as him declining is what prompted 88 to hire the Gran.
- That's better.--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 18:25, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
- That's better.--Exiled Jedi
- Mm, I tried to condense it a bit. I shortened the information about Jerec and cut out the mentioning of Grentho as he really wasn't a part of the scene. Left Fett in though, as him declining is what prompted 88 to hire the Gran.
- "
Sometime in the past the Gran sustained a blaster injury that took three months to heal from Katarn, but the former agent showed no recognition." You should mention this earlier in the article so you can present the biography chronologically.- Changed the order and used it to fill in the article more since, as you said, it makes the article appear to be more more focused on the Gran.
The part about Kyle wounding him would be good for the intro.- It has been added. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 22:33, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
- I will continue with my review after you fix these objections.--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 04:58, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
Does the source say that Kyle was a former Rebel agent when the guy fought him?- During their initial combat, it's never revealed. The Gran claims the injury took three months to heal, but it doesn't mean at all the injury took place three months in the past. For all anyone knows, it could've been years, or it could've been five months or four months ago. I think I'll remove "former" for now, as just "Rebel agent" could perhaps leave it ambiguous, as that's what it is.
- I think that will work.--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 20:44, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
- I think that will work.--Exiled Jedi
- During their initial combat, it's never revealed. The Gran claims the injury took three months to heal, but it doesn't mean at all the injury took place three months in the past. For all anyone knows, it could've been years, or it could've been five months or four months ago. I think I'll remove "former" for now, as just "Rebel agent" could perhaps leave it ambiguous, as that's what it is.
I add some links to the introduction. Could you go through the rest of the article and find things that you forgot to link. Make sure to link things once in the intro and once in the body.- Went through it best I could. Linked everything that seemed like I could link. I'll probably weave through it one or two more times to be sure, but otherwise done.
"The Gran never got the chance to use it however as he was disarmed by Katarn moments after pulling it." This makes it sound like he never used the weapon at all, which we don't know. You can probably just remove this sentence since you mentioned it in the body.- Done.
I think you can trim down the P&T by condensing the events you already mentioned in the body.- Trimmed.
Due to the contradictions presented in the BTS as well as its size, I believe that you should source it.- BTS has been both condensed and sourced for the contradictions. Also I simply removed the contradiction in the article all together and only mentioned in the BTS. As such the entire article now more closely follows the Novella's canon as opposed to the game's, due to the Force use in the novella and that the use of the Force in the bar is mentioned several other times throughout the novella.
- I also added the conflicting sources template to the article. For the artwork in the novel, you should just use the novel as the source.
- BTS has been both condensed and sourced for the contradictions. Also I simply removed the contradiction in the article all together and only mentioned in the BTS. As such the entire article now more closely follows the Novella's canon as opposed to the game's, due to the Force use in the novella and that the use of the Force in the bar is mentioned several other times throughout the novella.
"The two lines that are spoken though are then used as taunts for all other Gran enemies in the game" I don't remember him having another line, or are you counting the two sentences as separate lines? If he had another line, you should probably add the quote to the article.- Sorry, this probably could've been clearer. In the game cutscene, the gran says the first quote in the article: "You will never leave here. Nar Shaddaa shall be your grave." I considered that two lines, the two phrases, or sentences. For the rest of the game, the line/lines is split up, and each sentence is used as a taunt for the Gran in game. They will say one or the other line. One of them though appears to have been re-recorded from Dark Forces. In MotS the lines/phrases/sentences and it seems even the voice actor had all changed. I'll try to clean that up then.
- And I did what I could to clean that up.
- Sorry, this probably could've been clearer. In the game cutscene, the gran says the first quote in the article: "You will never leave here. Nar Shaddaa shall be your grave." I considered that two lines, the two phrases, or sentences. For the rest of the game, the line/lines is split up, and each sentence is used as a taunt for the Gran in game. They will say one or the other line. One of them though appears to have been re-recorded from Dark Forces. In MotS the lines/phrases/sentences and it seems even the voice actor had all changed. I'll try to clean that up then.
I'm not sure that you need to mention the other two unnamed characters in the BTS.- No? I suppose not, though I thought it'd mean something based on the relevancy of the article in the first place, and if not that then, well, maybe it's just be an interesting bit of trivia, thought perhaps BTS may not need such. Plus it's really frakkin long the way it is, so maybe cutting it down would be for the better. Perhaps not.
- I'm still noting that there were three acted extras and that this one was the only one to have lines. The extra's identities have been removed and that section overall has been condensed and reworded slightly.
- No? I suppose not, though I thought it'd mean something based on the relevancy of the article in the first place, and if not that then, well, maybe it's just be an interesting bit of trivia, thought perhaps BTS may not need such. Plus it's really frakkin long the way it is, so maybe cutting it down would be for the better. Perhaps not.
I'd split up the second to last sentence of the BTS.- Done. Also, while it may be early, and while this is more or less just what you may or may not like to do, I'd like to thank you for everything you're doing. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 20:38, August 28, 2013 (UTC)
- Good job on taking care of these objections. I'll give it another look over once you finish with these.--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 18:25, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
Could you mention the release year for the game?- Think I got it.
It would be best to mention the release year and author for the novella before you talk about contradictions. The first paragraph of the BTS would be the best place for it.- Think i got this too.
It would be a good idea to mention that the cantina was on Nar Shaddaa in the introduction.- Got it.
Please connect the information about Jerec into the confrontation between Kyle and 8t88's hirelings.- Tried, how is that?
Isn't the part about him using the force to get his blaster from the novel. You have it sourced to the game, please check your sourcing for that paragraph it seems a little off.--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 20:44, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
- Yep, made the edit but forgot to resource. Fixed now. Also went into the Radio Drama and found he had extra dialogue that explained some of his history as a bodyguard. Granted, should the title be changed? Gran Bodyguard? Or as the manual says, a bounty hunter. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 02:35, September 6, 2013 (UTC)
- Hmmm, so in the actual game his job isn't really identified, the radio drama mentions him as a bodyguard, and the manual mentions him as a bounty hunter? What source refers to him as a mercenary again? I'd try to make the title include the most common non-point-of-view identification for the Gran. (Using something slightly derogatory, like thug, would not be a proper article title, for instance.)--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 02:44, September 14, 2013 (UTC)
- I honestly just used 'mercenary' as a generic term. Due to the discrepencies, 'Unidentified Gran (Vertical City)' may be as neutral as one can get, seeing his profession is mixed. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 23:15, September 14, 2013 (UTC)
- Tried to move the page, but it seemed to screw with the GA Nomination tags. Either way, I figured (Rimmer's Rest cantina) to be as neutral as one could be for this situation, seeing that this Gran's only scene in any of the material took place in the bar.
- I honestly just used 'mercenary' as a generic term. Due to the discrepencies, 'Unidentified Gran (Vertical City)' may be as neutral as one can get, seeing his profession is mixed. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 23:15, September 14, 2013 (UTC)
- Hmmm, so in the actual game his job isn't really identified, the radio drama mentions him as a bodyguard, and the manual mentions him as a bounty hunter? What source refers to him as a mercenary again? I'd try to make the title include the most common non-point-of-view identification for the Gran. (Using something slightly derogatory, like thug, would not be a proper article title, for instance.)--Exiled Jedi
- Yep, made the edit but forgot to resource. Fixed now. Also went into the Radio Drama and found he had extra dialogue that explained some of his history as a bodyguard. Granted, should the title be changed? Gran Bodyguard? Or as the manual says, a bounty hunter. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 02:35, September 6, 2013 (UTC)
If the original art is different than what appeared in the novel, then you need to use Template:Cite web to cite the different image. If the image can be found in the novella, then just source it to the novella.- Explain your last sentence please. You mean if one of the original paintings in the novella unmodified? Most of the images in the novella have been altered from their original state, most notably being that any time we see Kyle holding the Bryar in the novella, the original art had him with a DH-17. (Another smaller example is that Gorc in the original art had a purple lightsbaer, but in the book it was changed to red).
- In my last sentence I was trying to say that you could source it to the novella if there were not any differences between the novel image and the original image. Since there is a difference, please source to the original image on the artist's website using Template:Cite web. If you have trouble using the template, I can help you fix it, cite web can be slightly tricky.--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 18:52, September 23, 2013 (UTC)
- Do I only need to source to one image with the discrepancy? Or to all the images? I feel the latter may be overkill, as anyone would only need to see one image to note the difference. I believe it's a total of three images that portray him with the 'wrong' weapon. I'll try Cite out anyways. Can't be to tricky, can it? :P - Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 15:27, September 24, 2013 (UTC)
- Well... shit, nevermind. I didn't understand that all as it turns out.
- It was a lot better than the first time I tried using the template. I somehow messed up the formatting on the entire section, which took awhile to fix.--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 17:59, September 24, 2013 (UTC)
- I'll admit, that sounds worse.--Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 03:11, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
- It was a lot better than the first time I tried using the template. I somehow messed up the formatting on the entire section, which took awhile to fix.--Exiled Jedi
- Well... shit, nevermind. I didn't understand that all as it turns out.
- Do I only need to source to one image with the discrepancy? Or to all the images? I feel the latter may be overkill, as anyone would only need to see one image to note the difference. I believe it's a total of three images that portray him with the 'wrong' weapon. I'll try Cite out anyways. Can't be to tricky, can it? :P - Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 15:27, September 24, 2013 (UTC)
- In my last sentence I was trying to say that you could source it to the novella if there were not any differences between the novel image and the original image. Since there is a difference, please source to the original image on the artist's website using Template:Cite web. If you have trouble using the template, I can help you fix it, cite web can be slightly tricky.--Exiled Jedi
- Explain your last sentence please. You mean if one of the original paintings in the novella unmodified? Most of the images in the novella have been altered from their original state, most notably being that any time we see Kyle holding the Bryar in the novella, the original art had him with a DH-17. (Another smaller example is that Gorc in the original art had a purple lightsbaer, but in the book it was changed to red).
Is the Gran potrayed in an image in the novel? If he is, then it would be a good idea to mention the illustrator.- One of the pictures shows Kyle holding his Bryar on 8t88. Kyle facing only about maybe 40 degrees away from staring down the reader. Behind him three aliens can be seen, none of them looking like a rodian, but three red eyes on stalks appear. I assume this is the gran, but only his eyes can be seen and the top of his snout. I'm unsure if this is supposed to be him or not, but I suppose we can assume it is. It's probably be fair to mention the illustrator (Ezra Tucker) anyways, as his art contributed greatly.
Please mention the Radio Drama in the behind the scenes section.- Okay
If the Gran is mentioned as a bounty hunter, please mention that in the article. The parts about him being a bodyguard and bounty hunter should probably be in the intro as well as the body.--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 02:44, September 14, 2013 (UTC)
- Done and done. I assume that since the bounty hunter label came from the game manual it still just gets sourced to the game itself, scorrect?
- You should probably use Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II game manual in the reference to let the reader know the information is not in the game.--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 18:52, September 23, 2013 (UTC)
- Alright
- You should probably use Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II game manual in the reference to let the reader know the information is not in the game.--Exiled Jedi
- Done and done. I assume that since the bounty hunter label came from the game manual it still just gets sourced to the game itself, scorrect?
The first paragraph of the biography needs to be trimmed down slightly to focus on the Gran. The article is about him, not 8t88 or Jerec. Please try and trim down the background information and focus on the article's subject.- Tried to trim it down more and re-word it. Still, I don't think it'd read well if it was just 88 hiring him out of the blue without context or background.
The second paragraph of the biography goes too much into the play by play details of the fight and needs to focus more on the overall flow of the fight.- Tried to smooth it out a bit and condense it, while still keeping the flow. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 04:37, September 15, 2013 (UTC)
- I'll look the article over again once you fix these objections.--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 02:58, September 14, 2013 (UTC)
- All right, my review is finished, but I checked the word count and the article is at 1,121 words, which means that you need to take the article to the Featured article nominations page. An AgriCorps member should archive this before you create the new nomination though. I will support once you get the featured article nomination started.--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 03:36, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
- Alright then. Will AgriCorps do it themselves or do they need to be notified that it needs to happen? --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 21:15, September 26, 2013 (UTC)
Comments
Also.. Can I add a question here? Should I add an Equipment section? In the game he wields a blaster that in-game is an E-11 Blaster. It'd be a very small section just to describe his one weapon, but I don't know if size really matters or not, in other words it'd have to be there if he had any sort of equipment. Thought I'd ask. Also, while I assume the canon of the Novella for the most part, I use a quote form the game as the first quote of the article as it is his game quote, though it's written slightly different in the novella, so perhaps I should change it? IN addition, while Kyle nabs a DH-17 in the game cutscene, in the novella he uses the force o reaquire his Bryar pistol (Interestingly, in all of the original versions of the images illustrated by Tucker Kyle is always holding a DH-17 instead of his Bryar, and the Bryar seemed to be digitally imposed for the book). Seeing I have an image of the DH being held on the Gran, would this be what should be mentioned then? Even if it defies the novella? What supersedes the other? Novella or Live Action cutscene? I just felt these were some questions and points to ask/make. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 02:34, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
- I would mention the weapon discrepancy in the behind the scenes section. You could probably have an equipment section mentioning his weapon and the type of clothes he wore.--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 05:00, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
- Decided to add a new pic from earlier in the cutscene and fixed the text to follow the novella's canon, which is more in line with the rest of the novella. This removes the weapon discrepancy from the article. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 21:02, August 26, 2013 (UTC)