- The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a Good article nomination that was unsuccessful. Please do not modify it.
Lyhesh Sakku
- Nominated by: QuiGonJinn
(Talk) 11:31, February 10, 2020 (UTC) - Nomination comments:
(0 ACs/1 Users/1 Total)
Support
- UberSoldat93 (talk) 12:58, February 13, 2020 (UTC)
Object
Toprawa
Ref 2 needs a little work. It's operating on the assumption that the reader already understands that Lyhesh died before being awarded the third Barsen'thor, but that should be explained within the course of the ref note itself so the reader doesn't need to read the remainder of the article to understand how this time frame works.Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 14:57, March 3, 2020 (UTC)- I've reworded the note. Please take a look. QuiGonJinn (Talk) 15:39, March 8, 2020 (UTC)
- I've reworded the note. Please take a look. QuiGonJinn
- Does the source really state any of this, or are you just extrapolating all of this from the fact that he's said to be a Jedi member of the Jedi Order? That he was "found by the Jedi Order" and that Lorjan "was also accepted into the ranks of the Order, and they both began training in the ways of the Force." Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 03:45, March 12, 2020 (UTC)
- I've actually taken the liberty of checking this information in the source myself, and I see that indeed these details are nowhere to be found. Even more troubling is the fact that this book doesn't actually say virtually anything that you've written in this article regarding Lyhesh. Lyhesh is never said to be a Jedi, a member of the Order, or that he fell to the dark side of the Force. It simply says that an attempted poisoning left him maddened and evil, and that stopping him killed Lorjan, who nonetheless defended the Jedi and redeemed Lyhesh to "serve the Force again." Certainly all of what you've written is one (and I would agree the likeliest) interpretation of these events, but the source doesn't explicitly say any of this, so we shouldn't either. You should rewrite this article to reflect only what is said in this book. And sorry to say, I can't see how you're going to get 165/250 words out of this thing. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 04:20, March 12, 2020 (UTC)
Comments
- I've come to the realization that this might be more suited to a CAN. While the main body currently stands at 214 words, I feel like P&T and P&A contain no unique info and can be removed, leaving the bio at 149 words. If the AC agree with that reasoning, I give permission to have this taken down. QuiGonJinn (Talk) 08:54, February 17, 2020 (UTC)
- I agree in principle, but I think some of the wording in the P/T and P/A is unique to those sections and should be merged into the Bio, unless there's just some extrapolating going on here. Like "Only the ultimate sacrifice of his own brother" is tantamount to saying that literally nothing else could have redeemed him, which is not reflected in the Bio. And saying he was a "major threat" to the Jedi Order is not reflected at all in the Bio, which only says in far less specific terms that he became a danger to Jedi. Whether or not these changes bring you to 165 words, we'll see. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 14:54, February 18, 2020 (UTC)
- Having re-checked the source, I have to admit that there's not enough evidence to suggest him being a "major" threat to the Jedi Order, so that part was my extrapolation and needs to go. The bit about Lorjan's ultimate sacrifice on the other hand was worded poorly on my part. I just wanted to describe how Lorjan's sacrifice led to Lyhesh's redemption, not that it was the only thing that could have redeemed him. Having addressed those two things, I've tried to whip up a draft of the article without sectioning. That one was 165 words by my count, so I then added an intro. I can now see that the P&A is unneccessary for sure. The P&T, I'm still on the fence though. I've left it out for now as well, but I could bring it back in a similar form to my initial draft, but with a different wording. QuiGonJinn
(Talk) 15:02, February 24, 2020 (UTC)
- It's my opinion that you don't need a P/T. I think this is a case of adding one just to add one, since it's not really saying anything that isn't obviously gleaned from the Bio. As the article currently stands, the Bio is at 158 words, by my count. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 14:38, February 26, 2020 (UTC)
- It appears that articles that just barely dance around the 165 words mark can be really tricky, since any change in wording can bring them below or above the threshold. At least it kept happening for me. Each time that I've tried to remove the intro—followed by some natural adjustments to the wording to make the prose flow better—the main body kept turning out to be 165+ words. This meant the intro had to be added back again and the body had to be adjusted, sometimes once again falling below the cutoff point. After several attempts, I think I've finally settled on a final version of the article body, which is 170 words, by my count. QuiGonJinn (Talk) 15:35, March 1, 2020 (UTC)
- It appears that articles that just barely dance around the 165 words mark can be really tricky, since any change in wording can bring them below or above the threshold. At least it kept happening for me. Each time that I've tried to remove the intro—followed by some natural adjustments to the wording to make the prose flow better—the main body kept turning out to be 165+ words. This meant the intro had to be added back again and the body had to be adjusted, sometimes once again falling below the cutoff point. After several attempts, I think I've finally settled on a final version of the article body, which is 170 words, by my count. QuiGonJinn
- It's my opinion that you don't need a P/T. I think this is a case of adding one just to add one, since it's not really saying anything that isn't obviously gleaned from the Bio. As the article currently stands, the Bio is at 158 words, by my count. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 14:38, February 26, 2020 (UTC)
- Having re-checked the source, I have to admit that there's not enough evidence to suggest him being a "major" threat to the Jedi Order, so that part was my extrapolation and needs to go. The bit about Lorjan's ultimate sacrifice on the other hand was worded poorly on my part. I just wanted to describe how Lorjan's sacrifice led to Lyhesh's redemption, not that it was the only thing that could have redeemed him. Having addressed those two things, I've tried to whip up a draft of the article without sectioning. That one was 165 words by my count, so I then added an intro. I can now see that the P&A is unneccessary for sure. The P&T, I'm still on the fence though. I've left it out for now as well, but I could bring it back in a similar form to my initial draft, but with a different wording. QuiGonJinn
- I agree in principle, but I think some of the wording in the P/T and P/A is unique to those sections and should be merged into the Bio, unless there's just some extrapolating going on here. Like "Only the ultimate sacrifice of his own brother" is tantamount to saying that literally nothing else could have redeemed him, which is not reflected in the Bio. And saying he was a "major threat" to the Jedi Order is not reflected at all in the Bio, which only says in far less specific terms that he became a danger to Jedi. Whether or not these changes bring you to 165 words, we'll see. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 14:54, February 18, 2020 (UTC)
- I request this nom to be taken dowm, due to the rewrite brought about by Toprawa's objection. QuiGonJinn (Talk) 07:04, March 12, 2020 (UTC)
