Wookieepedia:Good article nominations/General Grievous's Theme

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The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a good article nomination that was successful. Please do not modify it.

General Grievous's Theme

(3 ACs/6 Users/9 Total)

Support

  1. Hooray! Menkooroo 04:16, November 17, 2010 (UTC)
  2. Looks pretty good to me. Not quite as in-depth as the Arena Theme, but still good. Trak Nar Ramble on 05:22, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
  3. Dun-dun-DUN! ~ SavageBob 16:25, January 17, 2011 (UTC)
  4. ACvote Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 21:58, February 2, 2011 (UTC)
  5. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 18:25, February 12, 2011 (UTC)
    ANR0328 ♦ 2/26/11 - 00:08 (UTC) (Vote struck, reason: Per policy: Fewer than 50 mainspace edits -- Toprawa and Ralltiir 00:13, February 26, 2011 (UTC))
  6. I read through this a while ago, but it kind of slipped my mind. Good work. Also, I wish TCW would use this theme instead of the crappy musical cues they have for action and suspense. Darth Trayus(Trayus Academy) 18:55, March 7, 2011 (UTC)
  7. Assuming those ref objections are fixed. (: –Tm_T (Talk) 20:03, March 7, 2011 (UTC)
  8. ACvote Assuming Toprawa's last objection is handled. 1358 (Talk) 21:22, March 8, 2011 (UTC)
  9. ACvote Excellent work, Fred. Toprawa and Ralltiir 05:37, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

Object

  • I feel like more detail is needed --- for any article on a piece of music, particularly in the "summary" section. You mention that the French horns play the main melody, but can you describe what that melody is? The London Voices come in next --- what do they do? What do you mean by "purist form"?
  • Check out the first sentence of summary --- doesn't seem to make sense.
  • The link for the leading quote just leads to a page with a bunch of photos.
    • I added that quote to the Wook a long, long time ago. I must've been noobish. :P MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 16:26, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
  • Is there anything on the ROTS DVD about the making of the music? Is there anything else at all that could go in the conception and development section?
    • Nothing that pertains directly to the theme. Just stuff about the music in general, which would fit better on the soundtrack article IMO. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 16:26, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
  • Is the opening of the article an intro? If so, everything from it needs to be reintroduced later in the article. Conception and development shouldn't just mention "the theme" --- it needs to introduce what that theme is (remember that the intro is entirely separate from the rest of the article).
    • Oops, I'll get used to that. Eventually. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 16:26, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
  • This is a really good start, but I feel like the article needs more info. It could easily be padded up to Good article length. Menkooroo 15:42, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
    • Thanks. c):D MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 16:26, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
      • The word count is 259. So, do I just move this all to the GA page? MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 16:40, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
  • Heya! Remember that things only need to be linked to once (namely, Grievous). Also, look out for redirects --- General Grievous and Neimoidian shuttle are two examples. Menkooroo 00:31, November 8, 2010 (UTC)
    • Oh, I didn't know that was frowned upon. Oh well, links fixed. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 02:09, November 8, 2010 (UTC)
      • Yeah, redirects are a no-no. Give the article another lookover; there are some more redirects to be blasted.
  • Can you find a better main image for the article? Something like in The Imperial March?
    • Looked to no avail. Do you think I could just figure the notes out by ear and enter them in my music program? Or would that be OR? MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 13:53, November 10, 2010 (UTC)
      • Hm... honestly, I have no idea. I think the current image would probably be OK if you put a caption below it, similar to this one.
  • Hmmm... I don't know if the "In the soundtracks" section is needed, as it's just a rehash of info already in "Summary". It might be better to just state the info once.
    • Oops, forgot to address this one. Well, section merged. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 18:34, November 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • Remember to link to things the first time they're mentioned (ROTS soundtrack).
  • Are the lyrics to this piece anywhere online? Are they Latin? Do you know the translation? That might be some noteworthy info there. Menkooroo 12:21, November 10, 2010 (UTC)
Prepare to be savaged...
  • Should that be "the purist form" or the "the purest form"? ~ SavageBob 16:15, November 9, 2010 (UTC)
  • There seems to be a bit of OR in the article. For instance, we need a source citation for the "Symbolism" section to know what source calls the theme "majestic." Also, I'm a bit uncomfortable with calling one version of the theme "the purest, most direct, and complex form" without a source citation, but I grant that this may just have to do with my lack of musical knowledge. At the very least, the "Symbolism" section needs a source. ~ SavageBob 16:39, January 4, 2011 (UTC)
    • I've addressed the symbolism below in Xd's objections. He said I needed more context on Grievous, and since the symbolism section is already part of my makeshift LG for music, I added it. However, I really don't know how to source it. As for the other instance, "purest" and "direct" may be OR, but "most complex" isn't. The difference in complexity is obvious. I'll remove the other two adjectives. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 22:13, January 4, 2011 (UTC)
      • Better. I still don't think it's fair to assume something is a symbol of something else without a source to back it up. I'd say the same thing if someone were to write an article on A New Hope and say that the Empire is a symbol of fascism. It might be, but we've got to be very careful about such statements unless we can attribute them somewhere. To clarify, though, the first sentence of "Symbolism" seems OK; it's pretty obvious that "General Grievous' Theme" represents General Grievous. The next sentence is not OR (since it's obvious that Grievous is tall from the movie), but the third sentence is OR without a source. (And without the third sentence, the second sentence is unneeded). ~ SavageBob 16:38, January 5, 2011 (UTC)
        • I've changed it to a "Background on Grievous" section as I could not think of how to properly source the symbolism without any sheet music. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 18:34, January 6, 2011 (UTC)
Trayus
  • Isn't the theme also heard during the duel in the hangar between Obi and Grievous? When they first engage one another? Darth Trayus(Trayus Academy) 05:10, November 17, 2010 (UTC)
    • I didn't hear it when I went through the movie, but I occassionally got caught up in the action and forgot to listen. :P I'll check again when I get home from school. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 13:46, November 17, 2010 (UTC)
Xd's theme
  • Can something, like a Wikipedia article, be linked in the second item of "Released". I'm referring to the mp3 thing.
  • I don't usually object to something small like this, but there's an obvious thing linked twice in the intro. Please make sure you check for overlinking in the future.
  • Can you combine the second and the third sentences of the intro? They are rather choppy as is.
  • Can you say that the London Voices is a choir? The LSO is pretty self-contextualizing, but not the choir.
  • In the body, can you mention that Williams had written SW music before ROTS's soundtrack, too?
    • Better? MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 05:53, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
      • That needs a source, I guess. 1358 (Talk) 18:44, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
        • Ah yes, of course. I reffed all five films. Is that a little excessive? MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 17:57, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
          • Okay, two things here. First, "John Williams was contracted to write the score for Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith" can't be sourced to the films. Second, I suggest you find one reliable source instead of using the movies. 1358 (Talk) 19:57, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
            • Please fix this asap; this is getting rather old. 1358 (Talk) 16:26, January 5, 2011 (UTC)
              • Sorry, Xd. I've just been busy the past two weeks and never got around to this one. Should be fixed now. Thanks for being patient. :) MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 13:52, January 6, 2011 (UTC)
                • Nowhere on that page can I find that information. I just see a bunch of links to other StarWars.com pages. In addition, you can probably use the {{SW}} template for starwars.com references. 1358 (Talk) 14:41, January 6, 2011 (UTC)
                  • You have to go to each movie's page which is linked to on that page. They contain the cast and crew lists for each film. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 17:56, January 6, 2011 (UTC)
                    • I'm a little hesitant about this, but I'll let it go for now. 1358 (Talk) 13:43, January 17, 2011 (UTC)
                      • I'll ask around on IRC tonight and see what others say. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 18:23, January 18, 2011 (UTC)
  • Quotation marks go after periods and commas.
  • Some more context on Grievous, perhaps?
    • I added a "Symbolism" section, but I don't really know how to source it. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 13:45, January 4, 2011 (UTC)
      • I was referring to something small, like his affiliation with the CIS, but if you can properly source the symbolism, I'm fine with it. 1358 (Talk) 16:26, January 5, 2011 (UTC)
  • Intro says "The theme appears…once in its soundtrack." while body says it appeared twice. Please fix.
    • Oh yeah. I forgot to change both of them after I noticed it appeared twice. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 19:42, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
  • The parenthesis must go away. They break the flow.
  • As much as I like the current image of Grievous, I feel you should replace it with an image from the film.
  • Please go through the "In the movies" section and give context for the things mentioned there.
    • What exactly do you mean? MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 19:47, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
      • Context on Invisible Hand (flagship, anyone?) What is Utapau? Who is Kenobi? Context, man, you need context. :P 1358 (Talk) 19:57, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
  • Also, in that section, you mention "film". Shouldn't that be changed to movie, like the section header?
    • I figured they were interchangable. Changed anyway. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 19:42, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
      • They are, but our articles should be consistent. Besides, we prefer American spelling, and movie is more American than film. 1358 (Talk) 19:57, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
  • Can you mention what tracks it is featured on? The first? The fifteenth?
    • Fixed. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 19:42, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
      • Remember what I said about the quotation marks… 1358 (Talk) 19:57, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
        • Gosh, I just got stuck in that bad habit and I don't know why. I guess I'll have to watch for that more carefully in the future. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 05:25, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
  • Please give a more descriptive name to the second external link? Isn't the complete title of the site, "The Official Star Wars music site" better?
  • 1358 (Talk) 20:30, December 19, 2010 (UTC)
Jujiggum
  • You currently have intro-only information. Make sure that everything in the intro included somewhere in the main body.
    • What info? I'm not seeing it. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 13:48, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
      • The choir performed in the previous two prequels. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 16:13, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
        • Oh, wow. I didn't know it got that specific. OK, should be fixed. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 18:36, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
  • The "Background on General Grievous" section just doesn't really sit right with me. The first sentence is fine, but the second is filled with POV stuff that you can't attribute to the movie. Please clean this up.
    • Better? MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 18:36, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
      • Better, you've eradicated the POV stuff; but my problem was also with the section in general. There is information here that just doesn't correlate with the article whatsoever. So what if he was tall, killed a bunch of Jedi, and had breathing problems? How is that relevant? You need to more clearly correlte this with the musical theme. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 18:48, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
        • Well, I previously had music-related info in that section, but there was no way to source it, so I removed it. Others objected saying the article needed more context on Grievous, but relating his traits to those of the theme is only speculation. How would you suggest I go about this? MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 19:17, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
          • It's hard to say. Honestly, I don't think you need a full section on it. When you introduce Grievous in "Conception and Development", I think it's enough to say that he was a Separatist General who led the Droid Army following Dooku's death, and just leave it at that. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 19:24, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
  • What do you mean by "purest?" Do you mean it has the clearest form of the theme (ie the easiest to make out?)
    • Yeah, that's what I meant. Changed to your wording. Better? MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 13:51, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
  • "The theme also appears in the track "Star Wars and The Revenge of the Sith."" On my copy of the soundtrack, the listing on it names the first track: "Star Wars/The Revenge of the Sith."
    • /'s are often replaced with "and," but I went ahead and changed it for consistency's sake. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 13:48, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
  • Intriguing subject. I'll give the article one more look-over once these are addressed. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 19:19, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
  • One quick question: we have articles for all of these types of musical "themes," but we don't have articles for all but a few of the actual tracks themselves? How in the world does that make sense? And the inconsistency is mind-boggling—why do we have an article for Anakin's Betrayal, but have Padmé's Ruminations just as a redirect to the soundtrack? That makes no sense at all. (Please note that I'm not blaming you or anyone for this, I'm just wondering why we haven't done something about it before.) Please link to the other tracks that you mention in the article. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 16:13, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
    • There was a CT that decided to make articles on themes/motifs, concert suites, and basically anything other than a track. Some tracks on the soundtracks are actually these, while some are numerous queues put together. Some tracks that stand alone as separate, article-worthy pieces include The Asteroid Field, The Imperial March, Battle of the Heroes, The Flag Parade, Anakin's Betrayal, and many more. Hope that answers it! MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 18:23, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
      • Sorry, that didn't come out very clear. IOW, tracks don't get articles unless they stand alone as their own piece, not several pieces cut and queued together. idk about Padmé's Ruminations]]. I'll have to check on it. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 18:25, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
        • Oh, and linking to those tracks would be linking to redirects.
          • Obviously it would be linking to redirects; I was asking for you to create an actual article on the songs, because I was unaware of that CT. However, I still find this conclusion to be inconsistent and absolutely ridiculous, so I'm going to make another CT for it. And just as a side-note, since I know this specific example isn't really relevant to this article, IIRC Padmé's Ruminations does have its own specific theme/motif. In the meantime, I'll strike this objection, since current policy is against it. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 18:48, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the review! MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 18:36, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
  • Just one last thing: could you specify which chapter menu on the DVD uses the theme? Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 21:32, February 2, 2011 (UTC)
Tm_T and his stupid questions
  • Umm, why there's caption in the infobox image?
    • To explain why the soundtrack cover was used as the image. It was suggested in a previous objection. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 00:34, February 5, 2011 (UTC)
      • Makes sense.
  • Do you have some source for what instrument is doing what? (not saying you have to, but it would help)
    • The soundtrack. I just listened to it. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 00:34, February 5, 2011 (UTC)
      • I'm happy with the answer for now, some information about the composition of the orchestra in use and perhaps some other evidence of the instruments in use would be good though.
        • If I find a list of members during the ROTS recordings, I'll add the info. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 13:59, February 5, 2011 (UTC)
  • Last sentence in the Summary section, "tuba soli"?
    • A soli features a section, as a solo features an individual musician. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 00:34, February 5, 2011 (UTC)
      • Would it be a bad thing to replace "soli" with "section" or so to make it clearer for us who are not familiar with the terminology? –Tm_T (Talk) 08:43, February 5, 2011 (UTC)
  • Will give it a second round with fresh eyes. (: –Tm_T (Talk) 22:52, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
Toprawa
  • Since the theme appears in two different tracks of the soundtrack, I feel like these should both be listed in the infobox. I'm thinking it would be best to create a bullet list of each relevant track in the "Versions" field. Toprawa and Ralltiir 21:58, March 2, 2011 (UTC)
    • Sorry for the wait. Should be better now. I uploaded an ogg so readers can hear the difference between the two versions. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 18:32, March 7, 2011 (UTC)
      • Looks good. Should those two infobox links not be ordered according to chronological soundtrack listing? I think that would be the only true objective way of listing them. Toprawa and Ralltiir 18:39, March 7, 2011 (UTC)
  • Ok, I've left this objection for last, because it's possibly the most annoying. Considering the outcome of this CT forum regarding apostrophe-s usage, I feel like this article should probably be moved to "General Grievous's Theme," unless you can provide some kind of something that presents it in its current form (which I'm guessing not, since we've established it's a conjectural title). Toprawa and Ralltiir 20:05, March 7, 2011 (UTC)
    • I read the forum. It seems to say that, as long as it remains consistent, one can use s's or s'. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 13:47, March 8, 2011 (UTC)
      • Yes, but you're only reading half of the intended outcome. To quote from the Manual of Style: Users are encouraged, but not required, to use only an s' for possessive nouns ending in a Z-sound. For example, while discussing the armor of multiple Mandalorians, one would write "Mandalorians' armor"; but while discussing the armor of Darth Nihilus, one could write "Nihilus's armor" or "Nihilus' armor." In other words, I and our site policy page "encourage" you to go with the s's format, since "Grievous" ends in an S sound, not a Z sound. I might also point out that, despite the ambiguity and optional nature of our policy wording, using s's for S-sounding words is largely considered more appropriate in American English grammar. Toprawa and Ralltiir 18:02, March 8, 2011 (UTC)
        • Sounds fine to me. No one around here really uses s's, but then again, Texans don't really follow American English rules, or any rules for that matter. :P I'll move it. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 19:11, March 8, 2011 (UTC)
  • I'm about ready to support the article, but I feel like I need to ask this after reading through the Comments section below. You admit you haven't checked the ROTS game or any of the LEGO games. If you haven't done this yet, you should really make an effort to look into this before the nomination is considered successful. I would suggest starting a KB forum to ask for help. Toprawa and Ralltiir 19:22, March 8, 2011 (UTC)
    • Info added. It appeared in The Complete Saga and ROTS, but not LEGO Star Wars. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 13:44, March 9, 2011 (UTC)
      • Good. But the Expanded Universe appearances should be listed in the infobox. Also, I'm somewhat skeptical about the current ordering of the "Use" section subsections. Do you have any set order you've been following for these music articles? I kind of feel like maybe it should go Soundtracks > Movies > Expanded Universe, though certainly feel free to weigh in on that. Toprawa and Ralltiir 18:14, March 9, 2011 (UTC)
        • I was using the current layout for my articles, but for no particular reason, so I changed it. Added info to the infobox too. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 19:15, March 9, 2011 (UTC)
Ecks Dee
  • "In 2005, he worked with the London Symphony Orchestra and the London Voices choir to perform the score as he had done for the two previous prequels. Both the Orchestra and choir were used in "General Grievous' Theme,""[1] That can't be sourced to the soundtrack itself, can it? 1358 (Talk) 11:41, March 6, 2011 (UTC)
    • It can be sourced to the movies page on starwars.com. I've rearranged the reference to reflect that. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 19:17, March 7, 2011 (UTC)

Comments

Approved as a Good article by AgriCorps 05:37, March 10, 2011 (UTC)


  • Just letting you know that I jettisoned reference #3. I think that ref #1 was sufficient for that final sentence, and it's probably not a good idea to claim that the article might not be complete. Technically, every out-of-universe article might not be complete, but we write them by doing exhaustive research and presenting all the information we can find. Menkooroo 01:39, November 16, 2010 (UTC)
    • That's fine. I went ahead and removed the ref in Arena Theme too, as it's up for GAN. Thanks. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 13:37, November 16, 2010 (UTC)
  • The head quote does not specifically relate to the subject of the article. Lucas is commenting on Williams' score as a whole, not just Grievous' theme. JangFett (Talk) 05:02, December 16, 2010 (UTC)
    • I replaced it with a JWFan quote directly related to the theme. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 13:41, December 16, 2010 (UTC)
      • I'm sorry, but quotes from fan-related websites are unsuitable for an article. You may, however, find a quote from an official review website, or anything similiar. JangFett (Talk) 18:51, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
        • I replaced it with a non-fan-related review. Is that better? MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 19:29, January 6, 2011 (UTC)
  • You mention that the theme is used exclusively in ROTS. Are you sure it didn't appear also in computer games, such as the Battlefront II? Darth Morrt 03:55, January 30, 2011 (UTC)
    • I'm pretty sure it's not in any games I own, and as it's not really that significant a theme, I highly doubt it's in any others. It might by in the ROTS game, though. I don't own it, but I've played it. I don't rememberit being in there, but that doesn't mean a whole lot. If anyone has the game, they might check levels with Grievous in them. Also, I doubt it, though it is possible that LEGO Star Wars and The Complete Saga may use it. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 18:55, January 30, 2011 (UTC)