Forum:CT:Articles for individual songs on soundtracks

Forums > Consensus track archive > CT:Articles for individual songs on soundtracks

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The result of the debate was to adopt the "Ozzel Option" laid out in the Comments section. Graestan(Talk) 14:42, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm starting this after seeing a bunch of new articles popping up for each track listing on the Star Wars: The Clone Wars (soundtrack). Is this really necessary? I think we should just put the tiny amounts of information contained in each separate track article into the main soundtrack article. This goes for The Clone Wars soundtrack and all other Star Wars soundtracks for that matter. - JMAS Hey, it's me! 18:14, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Keep it all in one article

#JMAS Hey, it's me! 18:14, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
#Mecenarylord 00:34, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
#— Fiolli {Alpheridies University ComNet} 16:24, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
#Still per Ozzel and Fiolli. Mauser 17:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
#Provided we allow for some leeway should a particular piece gain enough notability to be split off into its own article, this is the more sensible option. ~ SavageBob 23:49, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Separate articles for each track

  1. We could redirect all the Star Wars films to Star Wars trilogy too, but it wouldn't make much sense. They're independent, discrete Star Wars products. I don't have a problem with having an article for each track. Havac 21:01, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
  2. It doesn't bug me too much either. Han Solo and the Princess, for example, appears in a number of sources besides the soundtrack and film, primarily video games. Theoretically, you could detail all of its appearances in its individual article. Toprawa and Ralltiir 21:59, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Toprawa, Han Solo and the Princess is a theme, however, and not a track. Individual themes are one thing; tracks are another.— Fiolli {Alpheridies University ComNet} 16:24, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
      • It's track number nine on ESB Disc 1. :) Toprawa and Ralltiir 19:11, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
        • Then, should this CT go in favor of separate articles, there would need to be another article created regarding the track on the ESB soundtrack. — Fiolli {Alpheridies University ComNet} 20:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  3. If The Asteroid Field is a redlink when I save this, I'm going to be pissed. Graestan(Talk) 23:34, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
  4. SoresuMakashi(Everything I tell you is a lie) 02:16, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
  5. I wrote most of these articles because I feel that music needs more presence on Wookieepedia. Each track is so unique. I say we include summary and BTS sections to help make the articles more varied in content. Master Fredcerique Robert M. Pierce 13:41, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
  6. I support each track having its own article, if there is enough info on each track to write an article (which there obviously is) then there should be an article. In fact it would be a slight to John Williams himself to say that each of his compositions are not worthy of an article, now we wouldn't want that would we. Prudii’verd 17:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
  7. Per Havac and Tope. Cylka-talk- 19:59, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
  8. Qui-Gon Reborn Enter the realm of the fifth dimension... Jedi symbol 07:32, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

The "Ozzel Option" (see below)

  1. Because it's getting a lot of support. Having articles for every track on a soundtrack album doesn't make sense, for the reasons listed below. Album tracks are not individual pieces of music, like the cues of a score would be, but (for the most part) edited amalgams of multiple cues. Having articles for tracks that aren't individual pieces of music (like a concert version, for example) makes as much sense as having an article for a chapter of a book. - Lord Hydronium 21:48, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
    • I'm aware Ozzel's idea isn't complete, and there's still some things up to discussion. The problem with the way we do CTs is, we treat it like nothing more than a vote between a concrete set of options, and for most people who read this anything below the last voting option might as well not exist. If we simply leave a valid option to the dismissively-named "Comments" section, it will languish there while everyone plunks their name down to whatever pigeonholed voting section best matches their view. It's better to get it up as a visible option and nail down the vagaries as we go. - Lord Hydronium 21:58, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
  2. --Eyrezer 07:07, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
  3. I'd rather hammer out (or, rather, let those with a better grasp of the details hammer out) a nuanced approach to this, rather than give it one of two all-or-nothing answers that appear to be insufficient either way. jSarek 07:11, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
  4. I just realized I had voted for the Ozzel option above without realizing it. ~ SavageBob 11:01, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
  5. —Silly Dan (talk) 12:02, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
  6. I'm convinced. Ozzel's got a solid grasp on the idea.. - JMAS Hey, it's me! 12:57, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
  7. Mauser 13:22, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
  8. Per jSarek. -- AdmirableAckbar (Talk) 17:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
  9. I've been convinced. Mecenarylord 21:47, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
    • Hey! I do agree with the terminology below. However, it is stated that the cues in the movies could be confusing and information that we put in an article may not be completely correct. If we made articles on individual tracks, which have definite information that is easily accessable, we could include information on when and where certain cues occur. I believe this would be much more efficient. Also, Wookieepedians are not the only ones to use Wookieepedia. Not everyone in the world understands all of this stuff about music. We have to create articles that the general people can relate to and easily research for clarification. I will venture and say that most people would not understand an article written about a single cue in a movie. But I will say that most would probably be able to understand an article on a single track. It is much simpler (if that's even a word). Master Fredcerique Begun the Clone Wars has Jedi symbol 21:51, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
  10. Now that this option has been added. —Xwing328(Talk) 00:56, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  11. Chack Jadson (Talk) 20:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  12. Well, I was the first to agree with Ozzel below, so if this is now an official option, it has my formal support. Master JonathanJedi Council Chambers 07:40, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  13. Grunny (Talk) 08:07, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  14. — Fiolli {Alpheridies University ComNet} 20:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  15. Sith Lord 1138 22:03, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
  16. IFYLOFD (Come with me if you want to live.) 23:14, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
  17. Per me. -- Ozzel 05:36, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
  18. CC7567 20px-Rex.png (s)talk 17:31, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  19. As long as it doesn't get too subjective when determining "themes" vs. "motifs." Milo Fett[Comlink] 14:07, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Comments

  • In their current incarnation, the individual articles could easily be combined into the single article for the soundtrack, but the individual articles could be given more info (such as when the track is played during the movie, and maybe a picture of the relevant scene), so to be honest I'm kind of on the fence. DolukTalk 18:29, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
  • I say - allow articles for songs to live if they are really good wriiten and prodive some info that the article of the release doesn't; redirect them to parent article if they don't .Mauser 18:36, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

First off, these are not songs. If it has (song) on the end, it should probably be moved or deleted. Anyway... I started writing up a CT on this a while back when some articles on random tracks from the movies started popping up, but as I am notoriously lazy, I never finished it. I don't mean to hijack the vote, but I don't think this is as simple as "all or nothing". I think there's plenty of merging, deleting, and expanding to do. Here's most of what I had started to say:

Ozzel's ideas

Our coverage of real world music is all wacky. There was a little discussion of the issue a while back, but it was inconclusive. So I'd like for us to make a definitive call on this.

I want to make sure we're all clear on terminology first, as I know everyone's not always familiar with it.

  • Score, I think we all know. The things that make up a CD album of a score are not songs; they are tracks that are sometimes a single cue or, particularly with the prequel albums, several cues edited together.
  • "Song", with soundtracks, generally refers to a standalone piece of music, often performed by a band or artist. (An instrumental track like "Cantina Band" is still a song.)
  • Source music refers to music heard by the characters in the film, and therefore automatically gets an IU article (e.g. the aforementioned "Cantina Band", known IU as "Mad About Me", plus "Jedi Rocks", "Lapti Nek", etc.)
  • A theme is a recurring melody that represents a certain thing, often a character. (The difference between theme & motif can be the subject of debate). Now some themes, like "Yoda's Theme", have concert versions. (There are other concert pieces arranged from film cues, like "The Asteroid Field", "Here They Come!", and "The Forest Battle"—although only the last of those appears on the actual soundtrack album; the others can be found on other albums.) Some themes, like "Qui-Gon's theme" or the "Boba Fett theme", do not have concert arrangements and are only heard in score proper.

Now, how should we deal with music articles? We've been all over the place in the past. Here's what I suggest we do now:

  • Musical score - This, which I believe started out on Wikipedia, is pretty good, and I think we should keep it as an overview article (and maybe trim a bit to avoid redundancy)
  • I think we should have articles for each film's soundtrack, which we have in Category:Soundtracks. In my opinion, these should cover the scores themselves and all album incarnations, which they more or less do now anyway.
  • Like I said, IU pieces of music like "Mad About Me" get articles anyway.
  • Now, I think all majors themes ("Princess Leia's Theme", the "Emperor's Theme", etc.) should have their own articles, because many have concert versions and appear in more than one film. Some minor themes, though, like Boba Fett's or Qui-Gon's (which I'd guess many people aren't that familiar with)... I could see this going either way. Perhaps individual articles, or maybe just cover them all in the "musical score" article, or make a new article for them... I don't know. Ideas?
  • As for concert pieces like "The Forest Battle", I'm inclined to say articles for them.

But. When it comes to any other album track, I do not think they should have articles, and here's why: Album tracks are iffy. Sometimes they are whole cues, sometimes they are partial cues, sometimes they are multiple cues together. A track on one album can be the same piece on a different album under a different name, or the same name can be used on different albums with different pieces of music. Basically, tracks and cues can be a big mess. So in these cases, I think individual articles are not very helpful and any relevant info would be better off covered in the respective score's article. There we can give full rundowns of the film's cue list (where they're known—some aren't; yes, it's confusing), all the different album versions, and all that jizz. So this part would involve deleting, redirecting, and possible merging, but I'd be shocked if we have a single article in this instance that says anything more than "This 'song' is this long and is played during this scene." -- Ozzel 21:38, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

  • I fully agree with Ozzel's proposal. Some tracks deserve separate articles; some do not. The Star Wars Music article is indeed worthless—the first sentence is so kriffing obvious that I almost facepalmed, the rest of the intro reads like an editorial review, and the rest of the article is nothing more than a ridiculously incomplete list. I think we should forgo the two options above as too extreme and implement Ozzel's idea. Master JonathanJedi Council Chambers 22:26, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
    • I like Ozzel's proposal: we need an article on The Imperial March, but not necessarily "End Titles (Attack of the Clones)." I also suggest Star Wars Music is simply redirected to Musical score. —Silly Dan (talk) 23:32, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Fully agree with Ozzel. Mauser 23:39, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Go with what Ozzel said. —Xwing328(Talk) 03:44, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
  • I would like to point out that agreeing with Ozzel here does not effect the vote at this point. So, if you are in favor of separate tracks or against separate tracks, your vote is required above. — Fiolli {Alpheridies University ComNet} 16:26, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Yeah, good job, Oz. I'm glad you finally typed all that out! WhiteBoy 06:58, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Thanks for clarifying the terminology, Oz. I agree that individual tracks should not have articles, but should be combined into the articles on the soundtracks. This is the way it was handled for the Shadows of the Empire (soundtrack), which is our only music FA. I'm also happy for themes to have articles. As for concert pieces, I'd never heard of them before reading this thread, but it seems to me that—at least with The Forest Battle—it could also just be integrated with the pertinent sound track. --Eyrezer 08:32, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
  • I want to compliment Ozzel on his excellent explanation. I would also like to add a quick point. The tracks are rarely complete performances of what exists on the film score. For example, the "Podracing leitmotif" can only be found once on the excerpt that comprises the ninth track of the Episode I soundtrack. In the full film score, which we are more familiar with from viewing the movie, it is actually found three times. This difference simply shows that it is not a reproduction of the full scene. The soundtracks are intended to fit into one or two disks and cover the major highlights of the film score. They are not intended complete pieces. Remarks about their differences could easily be covered in one or two sentences on the entire soundtrack page under each track. — Fiolli {Alpheridies University ComNet} 16:24, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, Ozzel hasn't voted for his own suggestion. Knock knock. Anyone home? :) Master JonathanJedi Council Chambers 02:19, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

  • Yeah, sorry 'bout that. Haven't been any time on the Wook lately. Anyway, voted now. -- Ozzel 05:43, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

This CT is 2 months old. The majority has voted for the "Ozzel option". Can we close it now and start executing the actual Ozzel's proposal? MauserComlink 12:00, 28 April 2009 (UTC)