Wookieepedia:Featured article nominations/Zeison Sha (second nomination)

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The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a Featured article nomination that was successful. Please do not modify it.

Zeison Sha

  • Nominated by: Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 21:00, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Nomination comments: I believe I have addressed all of the concerns from its last Inquisitorius review. Please advise what else should be updated. If this goes well, I will also re-nom Yanibar. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 21:01, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
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(4 Inqs/2 Users/6 Total)

(Votes required: No additional votes required to pass, please consider reviewing another article.)

Support

  1. Inqvote OOM 224 16:17, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
  2. Inqvote Really great to see your return. JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 20:24, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
  3. — Samonic ChissAscendancyCanonSymbol 17:14, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
  4. Inqvote Welcome back. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 17:44, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
  5. LucaRoR Sigil of House Serenno (Talk) 16:10, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
  6. Inqvote MasterFredCommerce Guild(talk) (he/him) 17:50, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Object

Vergence
From the desk of Macaroni
  • Really fantastic to see your name on this page. Starting off, while we don't really have LG instructions specific to Force organizations, I'm going to suggest that we switch it to "Description" followed by the History that you currently have.
    • Added Description and moved "Philosophy" and "Common abilities" under there. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 22:48, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Seeing as Jedi vs. Sith is an IU guide, are there no more quotes we can add? I don't know if this was done in your day, but we treat IU material as quote material, like here.
    • Added a couple of quotes from Bodo-Baas. This is a new practice for me, to be sure. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 22:48, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
  • I'd recommend looking through the article to make sure that everything that can be linked is linked.
    • Added a few links and moved a bunch around due to moving Philosophy/common abilities above History. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 22:48, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
  • When citing multiple things at once, refs need to be in ascending order ([1][2] instead of [2][1]).
  • I'm not a huge fan of leaving a paragraph outside of subsectioning in History as well as have a subsection that's only one paragraph. Do you think that the subsectioning there can be reworked a bit to try and get at least two paragraphs in each?
    • Moved the offending paragraph under the Refuge from the Sith subheader. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 22:48, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
  • {{CSWECite}} needs to be implemented for the citation.
    • Done. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 22:48, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
      • Ideally, that should use the volume number in Roman numerals, the page number, and entry. See Haash'n as an example.
        • Numerals and entry, sure. I don't have that source so page number is not available to me. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 03:34, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Have a Super Terrific Friendly Un-frustrating day. JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 16:41, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
  • "Temple" links to a disambig page and needs to be removed.
  • The first paragraph of Common abilities has a couple consecutive refs to the Hero's Guide; only one should be necessary.
  • (Review note) See WP:DASH for dash instructions. JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 16:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
    • I changed the one em dash to a comma since it didn't really need to be a dash anyway. The others I believe are correctly hyphenated but perhaps I missed an example or two. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 03:34, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
      • Yeah, that's why it's marked as a review note—just so you know for the future. JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 03:54, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
OOM
  • If KOTOR II is the only source that contradicts the ~2000 BBY placement, and sources published after KOTOR II support the original placement, then shouldn't that be treated as canonical instead?
    • I'm not sure why I didn't see this last time I checked objections. Anyway, I reread WP:CANON and it's not clear what to do about clearly-conflicting sources. Do we take a side and note in the BtS? Do we leave it conflicting? What is the usual accepted practice these days? Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 00:41, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
      • In general—and I believe it applies here based on the information on this article—more recent sources trump conflicting older sources in terms of canonicity, and when it's multiple sources vs. one source, the precedence is to treat the anomalous source as non-canon and note the contradiction(s) in the BTS. The information in the other sources would then be treated as canon. OOM 224 18:05, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
        • Okay, so here's my dilemma. Shadows of Revan apparently has Zeison Sha mentioned in it. Not sure where or how since I'm not a SWTOR player, but that's set in 3638 BBY whereas the New Sith Wars are 2000-1000 BBY. I'll do some investigation and see if I can figure out what Zeison Sha entities are mentioned in there. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 14:58, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
          • Huh, SWTOR. This must be it then: https://torcommunity.com/database/schematic/LyBmD9O/might+of+the+zeison+sha OOM 224 17:30, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
            • Talking to some friends who play SWTOR, that's a non-player mission where you send your "crew" off to collect minor rewards. I think all we can say is that during the Third Galactic War, factions attempted to recruit aid from the Zeison Sha on Yanibar, but it's . . . completely optional. Do we still tag those with some kind of template for sidequest? Also still searching/discussing to see if there's any other content or mention. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 21:24, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
              • Yeah, that's about right. You can take the CA Wordro and the GA Kalki Nebula/Legends as examples of how to treat TOR Crew Skill missions. They're both recently passed, so they're up to the current standards for TOR article precedents. Let me know if you need more clarification. OOM 224 22:07, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
                • Okay, took a stab at this. Let me know what you think. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 21:11, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
                  • Great, that works. I've changed some things to better fit current practice. OOM 224 21:53, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Chronicles of the Old Republic should replace that GameBanshee webpage, and a note should be added to explain the date since Chronicles doesn't mention Zeison Sha itself. OOM 224 20:01, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
    • Will get this sorted out tomorrow. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 00:41, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
      • I did take a second look at this but when I started looking at your first objection, that raised some questions about whether or not we even needed the website link and then RL kinda blew up. Will address once path forward is established on the previous objection. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 14:58, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
        • Changed this to cite The Essential Atlas instead for the date of KotOR II rather than an archived web page. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 21:11, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Context should be provided for Yanibar upon its first mention in the body
    • Moved up the mention to earlier in the body where it was already contextualized. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 18:28, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
  • "Their use of the discblade could also be further enhanced through the Force, whether by adding accuracy, calling the weapon back to the thrower, or imbuing the blade to make it stronger" — this sentence seems to be redundant to the rest of its paragraph
  • The article body is somewhat lacking in illustrations, and I think there's space for you to add at least two more images
  • It would be nice to provide a BBY date for the rise of the Empire OOM 224 11:00, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Also, the article says they're located in the Outer Rim, but for whatever reason the page itself is in Category:Wild Space organizations OOM 224 11:02, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
    • This is an interesting one, because different sources place Yanibar in Wild Space vs the Outer Rim. I'll categorize them in both if that's okay with you and have adjusted the wording surrounding Yanibar. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 18:28, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
      • Cool, that makes sense OOM 224 16:20, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Final touches
    • A Zeison Sha warrior speaks to Jedi emissaries in the lead quote, but the event doesn't seem to be mentioned in the article body.
      • Yep, weaved this into the conversation about self-reliance brought up by Shayanomer. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 14:47, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
    • "For millennia after the original colonists had been abandoned on Yanibar" — abandoned by whom? Elaboration needed.
    • "After their perceived betrayal by the Jedi" — similarly, some elaboration needed for "betrayal" to explain what this is about here.
    • "but children in training lived with their parents" — would be nice if you could merge this with the earlier statement about children remaining at home for the sake of concision.
    • Repetition of "independence and survival(,) as well as assistance to those in need" between the intro and History section. In fact, you could probably do without it in the History section and instead add in something about their abandonment, which seems to be information that is exclusive to the intro.
    • "A major development of Zeison Sha history" — unless the source says something to this effect, I feel like this is editorialising.
      • Ooookay, so this one's kinda messy. The problem is the divergent backstories for the Zeison Sha. KotOR/TOR imply the Zeison Sha are not only founded millennia earlier, but exist on Yanibar. That doesn't work at all with the other recorded histories (even IU as noted in EGTTF) that all have the New Sith Wars as the seminal trigger for the founding of the Zeison Sha. I'm happy to wordsmith this however you would like but while I could explain EGTTF away as incomplete information based on the IU narrator, JATM and Hero's Guide are OOU as far as I know. Thoughts on how to write around the continuity problem? If we assume both sources are correct and the Zeison Sha were established prior to the NSW on Yanibar, I would describe the arrival of thousands of colonists, many of whom were Force-sensitive and subsequently joined/absorbed the Order, as "major." Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 14:47, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
        • Ooh, I see. In that case, I'd say the current wording works pretty well in integrating the info from all those sources. OOM 224 16:17, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
    • Also, it's strange that that paragraph and the one right after doesn't mention the Zeison Sha by name at all, bar the instance I pointed out here. See if you can slip in a few. OOM 224 22:50, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
      • Tossed in a couple, but see my response to your previous objection. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 14:47, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
UberSoldat
  • "The Zeison Sha were an order of Force-adepts known for their survival skills and resourcefulness..." I haven't quite seen this wording anywhere else in the article, which leads me to believe that this may not be supported by sources. Please reword if that's the case. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 03:44, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
    • EGTTF explicitly states that the "original colonists might have perished had not some of them been Force-sensitive" and "their descendants developed a new Force tradition, the Zeison Sha, whose members used their talents to deal with the dangers native to Yanibar and defend the otherwise defenseless." I've reworded "resourcefulness" to "self-reliance" as that's better-supported by the text, but I don't think "survival skills" is original research based on the quoted passage. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 18:28, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
      • I was referring to "known for" actually, which I had already emboldened. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 04:54, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
        • I've added some additional wording in "The outlanders" section to support. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 14:36, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Context for Darth Vader.
  • The mention of the subject in Jedi vs. Sith should be documented in the body proper since it is an in-universe publication. UberSoldat93 ClanMudhornSignet-Redemption (talk) 09:23, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
Luca
  • In the intro, you say: "after the original colonists had been abandoned." It is unclear, at least to me, who these colonists are. (You explain it well in the body, only the intro is a bit confusing, IMO).
  • The first paragraph of "Common abilities" is rather large. How would you feel about splitting it up?
  • "Little did they know that…" I'm not a fan of this sentence unless the source uses it. What about "They were not aware" or "they did not know?"
  • Please, make sure to be ok with this copy-edit, and great work! LucaRoR Sigil of House Serenno (Talk) 14:02, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
    • I reviewed the copy-edit and I am good with it. Thank you for your feedback! Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 00:52, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Comments

Approved as a Featured article by Inquisitorius 17:50, 25 June 2022 (UTC)