Wookieepedia:Featured article nominations/Jaller Obrim

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The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a featured article nomination that was successful. Please do not modify it.

Jaller Obrim

  • Nominated by: Coruscantfan 23:01, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
  • Nomination comments: A simple street cop

(5 Inqs/1 Users/6 Total)

Support

  1. Inqvote Filled to the O-brim with goodness! Menkooroo 07:41, April 2, 2011 (UTC)
  2. GTQ 02:59, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
  3. Inqvote Cavalier OneFarStar(Squadron channel) 18:34, June 8, 2011 (UTC)
  4. Inqvote—Tommy 9281 Wednesday, June 8, 2011, 23:49 UTC
  5. Inqvote Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 17:58, June 23, 2011 (UTC)
  6. Inqvote Grand Moff Tranner Imperial Department of Military Research (Comlink) 20:06, June 23, 2011 (UTC)

Object

Nayayen
  • There is a lot of missing info here. Case in point, the whole "swapping the evidenced datachip with a blank one" deal in IC is only summarised with one sentence. And nothing about his meetings with Kal in the Kragget. This is from a brief glance and my memory from re-reading the books a few months ago.
    • Meeting at the Kragget mentioned. Coruscantfan 01:41, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
    • Expanded the datachip mention. Coruscantfan 01:49, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
  • Similarly, the P&t could also be greatly expanded. Again, case in point, you have more unique details of his personality in the snippet about him in the CSF article.
    • Can you give me specifics of what you would like to see in the P&t section? Coruscantfan 01:41, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
    • I rewrote, if you could take another look and see what else you feel it needs. Coruscantfan 02:11, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
  • I'll try to do an in-depth review later, possibly after re-reading the books, but I'd advise you to do the same because you will find some information you can add. NAYAYEN—it appears to be a frammistat 00:50, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
    • This is my first FA about a character so I'm going off of what I've seen in other FAs. But there are areas where I was unsure of where to expand and where to summarize so any pointers are welcomed. Coruscantfan 01:17, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
      • Looking at current FAs is good. See if there are any characters from material you're familiar with and see what sort of detail is gone into with those; knowing the material, you'd be able to see what parts are included/left out. I've struck my above objections for now, but it's likely that I may make similar ones in a later review. Good work so far. NAYAYEN—it appears to be a frammistat 10:58, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
Xd1358
  • Some preliminary objections: The intro could use some expansions, IMO.
    • Expanded, see if that's enough. Coruscantfan 15:39, February 7, 2011 (UTC)
  • Basic facts such as his homeworld, species and sex need to be mentioned in the biography. 1358 (Talk) 14:18, February 5, 2011 (UTC)\
    • Listed. The homeworld was mentioned already in the middle of the first paragraph. Coruscantfan 15:39, February 7, 2011 (UTC)
      • Sentient species should be capitalized. 1358 (Talk) 13:33, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
        • I'm assuming you were refering only to "Humans"? Capitalized. Coruscantfan 00:38, February 18, 2011 (UTC)
Jaller Obrim
  • Intro: When were his sons teenaged? The intro just talked about stuff he did over his entire life, and they weren't teenaged the whole time.
    • "Teenaged" removed.
  • Can you give some context on Skirata in the intro? I'm not sure who he is or why he's going on missions.
    • At the beginning of the intro I have: He was a close friend of Mandalorian Kal Skirata and the clone troopers Skirata had trained as clone commandos and ARC troopers.
      • I'm looking for a lil' more --- even just something like "Sergeant" that indicates he's an active officer during the war.
        • Try now.
  • Kinda nitpicky, but "Skirata and his clones" makes it seem like they're clones of Skirata.
    • Done.
  • Senate Guard: Same as in intro --- can you establish when he was living in Rampart Town with his teenage sons? Was it 22 BBY?
    • Done.
  • "Never forgotten by the CSF" is a bit misleading --- I don't know if too many CSF officers during the Legacy Era would remember it. Can you reword?
  • More to come! Menkooroo 07:08, March 17, 2011 (UTC)
  • The information given on the black-ops mission is pretty confusing --- the article states that Skirata is telling Obrim about it over fast food, and what seems like all of the participants (which doesn't include Obrim) are mentioned --- it gives the impression that the mission has already happened and that Skirata is recounting it to Obrim. But then at the beginning of the next paragraph, the mission is underway and Obrim is a part of it. What happened here? When Skirata was telling Obrim about it at the burger joint, was it still an upcoming mission at that point? If so, can you establish that? Does Skirata invite Obrim to join him on the mission? Some general cleanup is needed to help establish a chronology and a clearer picture of what's going on here.
    • Hopefully I've clarified some of the confusion.
  • If Obrim is part of the mission for its entire duration, detailed information on the mission and his role in it needs to be given.
    • No, Obrim is aware that Kal is up to something but he is brought in only at the end. I've tried to clarify that.
      • It's good! Buuuuut it still kinda reads like Obrim is there the whole time. Are they speaking over comlink before Obrim is brought in? Is Obrim covertly following Skirata or something?
        • Hmmm, better? Coruscantfan 03:52, March 22, 2011 (UTC)
          • I think you need to establish Obrim's role in the mission at the beginning of the paragraph. This could probably be done with the addition of just a few words --- for example, if "Skirata was hesitant to give Obrim any information" were changed to "Skirata was hesitant to contact Obrim and give him any information", it would make things quite a bit clearer. I'd also like to see some more detail on their various meetings and conversations, especially the one where they almost come to blows --- namely, where do they take place? Menkooroo 06:39, March 23, 2011 (UTC)
            • I rewrote some of that paragraph so hopefully that clarifies that.
              • Yes! Good job. Buuuut can you clean up the grammar at the beginning of that paragraph? Particularly, it's led by an oddly-phrased sentence that really runs on. Menkooroo 07:20, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
                • No problem, done.
  • Does Obrim ever lose his professional respect for Skirata? The "At first" makes it seem like he does.
    • Done.
  • Quite a few things in the final paragraph of Working for CSF need context --- Palpatine, Operation:Knightfall, Laseema, and the Battle of Coruscant.
  • I'll finish the review once these are addressed, baby! Menkooroo 07:54, March 20, 2011 (UTC)
  • A touch of context on Order 66 would be ballin'. Especially because it's not entirely clear right now that that's how Etain dies.
    • Done.
  • The Clone Wars aren't mentioned at all in the bio.
    • Done.
  • Backtracking a little bit: The intro says that early in his career, he earned a reputation as a skillful detective and a hard-nosed cop, but the beginning of the bio leaves out the detective mention. Any reason for this?
    • We really don't have any "stories" on this. We just know he had established himself as such by the time the RC books' stories enter the picture.
      • Still seems like info noteworthy enough to mention in the bio. Not good practice to have intro-exclusive info.
        • Actually I just realized that I already did: ...as well as conducting criminal investigations... I linked that to detective. Coruscantfan 14:31, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
  • Location-wise, where is Obrim when Darman and Niner come to him with the disc?
    • Done.
  • Any reason why he was careful not to reveal his skills with a computer?
    • Nothing is really stated. My assumption is he was just careful about anything he revealed but that's my assumption.
  • When did he make inconvenient bodies disappear? Is this mentioned in the bio?
    • In this case I was referring to living people, I reworded it.
  • Behind the scenes: As you refer to the RC novels as novels, can you establish that Targets is a short story?
    • Done.
  • One more in bts: "as the series moved to Coruscant..." reads a little weird, as it hasn't been established that the series isn't on Coruscant --- all that it's mentioned is the events of Targets, which does take place on Coruscant. Some sort of rewording would probably do the trick; even something like "began to take place prominently on Coruscant" or something would read clearer.
    • Done.
  • S'all I got! I'll give it another readthrough once these are addressed. Also, remember to only link to things on their first mention and to refer to characters by their last name. Menkooroo 07:00, March 23, 2011 (UTC)
  • OK! Going through the article again, I have just a couple more: The slightest bit of context on Order 66 in the intro would be great --- even just mentioning that it branded several of Skirata's allies as traitors to the Republic.
    • Done.
      • Good stuff. I removed the reference to the Jedi, though, as they aren't otherwise mentioned in the intro.
  • Two notes: The single paragraph in Personality & traits seemed a little big, so I split it into two. Whaddya think? I also changed a tense from present to past in Behind the scenes, as the rest of bts was written in past tense.
    • Looks good!
  • Have you checked to see if he has an entry in The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia? His first few appearances were early enough that it's definitely possible.
    • I checked, unfortunately no mention. But then it seems CSWE doesn't mention or "under-mentions" a lot of things.
  • Those are definitely my last! Good job. :D Menkooroo 05:28, March 30, 2011 (UTC)
    • Thanks, I appreciate your review! :) Coruscantfan 17:59, March 31, 2011 (UTC)
Jujiggum
  • Context for Besany and Fi in the intro, please.
    • Done.
  • In the intro, you specify that the Clone Wars began in 22 BBY, but you do not specify this in the bio. No intro-exclusive information such as this is allowed (the intro goes unsourced because everything in it is supposed to be covered in the body, so sourcing it would be redundant; thus, if you leave something in the intro out of the main body, then it is technically an unsourced fact)
    • Specified.
      • I don't think Targets is a source for saying that the war began in 22 BBY. I know the story takes place in 22 BBY, but that doesn't mean that the story specifies that the Battle of Geonosis took place in 22 BBY. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 19:22, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
        • True, sourced to Triple Zero which specifies time for the Battle of Geonosis.
  • Context for Fi in the body, please
    • Done.
  • Some contradicting information: in the intro you say that Obrim was transferred to the CSF when the Clone Wars began. However, in the body you say he was still a Senate Guard during the hostage siege, which was well after the Clone Wars had begun.
    • Typo, fixed.
  • In the Senate Guard section, please keep things chronological. Leaping back and forth in the timeline in the biography section of a character article makes it difficult for the reader to keep up with the true chronology of events.
  • I'll continue with the CSF section once these are fixed. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 20:50, April 21, 2011 (UTC)
  • Some things pertaining to the Senate Guard section: A "hostage siege" doesn't take place "between" two factions in the way that a battle does, so this wording doesn't work: "…hostage siege between the Coruscant Security Force and terrorists."
    • Enter the collision of SW with the real world. Just so you know where I'm coming from: I don't know why Traviss called it a siege, technically its a "hostage crisis" we sometimes call it a "standoff". Side note: Generally we do consider that kind of situation as taking place between two factions&mdashus and the person(s) doing the hostage taking. See if my word change clarifies the confusion.
      • A bit better, but I think the best fix here would be for you to put things in more chronological order—specify first that terrorists had taken some Senators as hostages and then say that the CSF and Senate Guard were sent to deal with the terrorists in response, and it will make perfect sense. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 16:31, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
  • More poor wording here: "The Senate Guard was involved to the fact that among the hostages were…" What do you mean by "involved to the fact?" That wording doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
    • Sorry simple typo, fixed. Coruscantfan 21:15, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
  • If you say that Omega Squad & frends assisted with the siege, you're implying that they were the ones doing the sieging itself, which they were not.
    • Again, it seems two different experiences colliding: Regardless of the arrival time or objectives of a responding unit to a situation like this, they would be considered as taking part of or assisting with the hostage crisis. As above, hopefully my word change clarifies this.
  • Please be very, very careful when rewriting sections during attemtps to fix objections—if you let yourself get sloppy, you'll only have to fix even more objections. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 19:22, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
    • Sorry about that, I'll have to be more careful. I would like to suggest though that it seems the problem is more me trying to find a balance between real world terminology, what is thought to be the real world terminology, and what was in the book. If you see other places where you think the wording is inaccurate or confusing please bring it up and I'll clarify it. Coruscantfan 21:15, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
      • I'd like to reaffirm this message one more time. Please be careful; I had to fix some typos and awkward wording that you left when you addressed the Senate hostage-related objection. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 14:55, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
  • P.S. Any other suggestions on pictures that I could/should use? Skirata and the CSF cop seem fine I think, I'm not sure on the ISB guys pic. Should I add a picture of one of the books in the BTS section? Coruscantfan 22:36, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
    • No, the article doesn't need any more than it has. Maybe instead of the ISB officers you could use a pic of the troopers from the 501st cover. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 16:31, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
  • There's some information in the "Working for CSF" section that belongs in the P&T. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 23:51, May 24, 2011 (UTC)
    • Where? Coruscantfan 00:43, May 25, 2011 (UTC)
      • Particularly in the first two paragraphs of the section. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 00:46, May 25, 2011 (UTC)
        • I'm guessing you mean his relationship with Skirata? Because I covered that in the P&T. Coruscantfan 00:50, May 25, 2011 (UTC)
          • Hardly; there is plenty of relevant information missing in the P&T that's present in this section regarding their relationship—and some of it needs to be removed from the bio, too. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 00:57, May 25, 2011 (UTC)
            • I expanded some sections so see if any other adjustments need to be made.Coruscantfan 10:59, May 31, 2011 (UTC)
              • The second paragraph of the P&T is disjointed, skipping from one topic to another and then back to the first, and I've noticed several messy mistakes throughout your rewrite of the P&T and the rest of your recent edits in the article. Please once again see my note above regarding being careful when trying to fix objections. Not only is this frustrating for me because I have noted this above twice already, but also because it holds up the review; I can't move on to read through the rest of the article if you continue making sloppy mistakes that just generate new objections. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 23:30, June 8, 2011 (UTC)
                • I've noticed your notes on the topic and there is no need for a lecture. I've been out of the country and was working with dial up. My last few edits were incomplete due to the fact I had to cut them short when the dial up continually worked and then failed and I finally I gave up until I returned. Also to address your concern in both the delay through mistakes. It would be helpful if you could list all your objections at once like most other reviewers and let me deal with them all at one time. Also some of your objections are very broad and give me little clues as to what you actually want changed. Specifics also help me in not implementing changes you see as sloppy. In response to this objection, I've reworked the P&T paragraphs to make them flow better. Any further suggestions you may have are welcome because I know your eye for detail. Coruscantfan 16:51, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
                  • In the interests of keeping everything here on topic pertaining to the review, I've adressed your concerns on your talk page. One more bit of information that I believe belongs in the P&T is: "Obrim was one of the few non-clones trusted with Skirata's plans to help clone troopers desert the Grand Army of the Republic." You say Skirata trusted him in the P&T, but you don't quite give us the level of trust, and mentioning this specific instance would remedy that. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 17:47, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
                    • Done.
  • I noticed that "Rebel Alliance" was added to his affiliations, sourced to the novel 501st. This is impossible, seeing as the Rebel Alliance wasn't until more than ten years after the novel.
    • I guess it would be Whiplash then? The information he passed along was to help escaping Jedi and to give support to Imperial resistance movements, hence I said Rebel Alliance.
      • Hmm, do the novels actually specify that he helped out Whiplash? IIRC, for all we know, the extent of his anti-Imperial actions might have just been for the benefit of Clan Skirata. If that's the case, then Clan Skirata is all you really need here. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 02:10, June 22, 2011 (UTC)
        • Actually he even mentions Whiplash by name. Here is the section where it talks about the disc: Obrim had that look, a hint of twinkle in his eye that Niner had seen before when he was up to something. "I was hoping it would have information on a rebel escape network, maybe like the Whiplash underground. It could have led us to all kinds of folks trying to evade the Empire. Jedi...civvie pilots...mercenaries...their arms deals, their finance routes..." Obrim sighed and rattled the datachips... After that, Obrim hands them the disc through slight of hand. Later it turns out the disc did have all that info and Obrim gave it to them intending it to help those groups. This is also why I said Rebel Alliance and I'm wondering if I shouldn't put it back even though the Rebel Alliance wasn't formerly founded till later, he still mentions "rebels" as a group he hopes the info will help. The "unofficially" may be removable as well since he was actively helping them.
          • The Rebel Alliance should be kept out, because "rebels" could refer to any resistence movement. But you can definitely keep Whiplash in—officially or unofficially, whichever you think is best. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 17:22, June 23, 2011 (UTC)
            • Is there anyway that I can reflect (in the infobox) his affiliation with anit-Imperial/ressistance movement? This also would tie into Tranner's objection below on the infobox...
              • I would just suggest putting "*Various anti-Imperial resistance groups" in the infobox. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 17:58, June 23, 2011 (UTC)
  • "Threatening that he would release embarrassing information about the droid's boss…" Do we know anything more about this? (i.e. whether or not he was bluffing, and if not, what that embarassing info was, or who the droid's boss was, or how Obrim came to know about it?)
    • All we know is what is in the quote in that section: Ask your chief executive about his interest in Twi'lek artistic pursuits on every fourth of the month, and if he'd like me to give police surveillance holovids of the visits to the cultural center to his lovely wife. Your call. Whether or not he was bluffing, I don't think so, but only the book's author truly knows.
  • "…which resulted in the destruction of the Jedi Order and the arrests of several of their supporters." Operation: Knightfall itself didn't destroy the Jedi Order.
    • Done.
  • Did he relocate Kad, Laseema, and Besany before the Battle of Coruscant? Right now, the chronology is confusing. Your current wording and sentence placement makes it sound like he relocated them shortly beforehand, even though you mention that it was also right before Operation: Knightfall, which makes me wonder whether or not it was actually between the Battle of Coruscant and Operation: Knightfall. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 17:47, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
  • More of what I was looking for in the above P&T objection was the fact that Skirata trusted only a couple of non-clones, and Obrim was one of those select few.
    • Got it.
  • You say that Obrim ensured that "Skirata and his crew" escaped Coruscant; but then you go on to describe how Etain was killed, and Darman and Niner were forced to stay. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 02:10, June 22, 2011 (UTC)
    • Clarified.
  • One last thing: could you specify in the BTS that Traviss was going to write more commando novels, but she stopped writing for Star Wars and the commando series was canceled; and then specify her tentative plans for Obrim, so that the reader has more background on why they're only getting a possible end to his storyline? Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 17:22, June 23, 2011 (UTC)
    • Done.
Cav-Man
  • Senate Guard: Some resolution to the siege perpetrated by the Korun terrorists is needed.
    • Done.
  • Order 66 and ISB: Some detail involving the skirmish that led to Tur-Maken's death is needed.
    • Done.
  • Order 66 and ISB: Context on the blank disc, and the information contained on it is needed.
    • Done.
  • Personality and traits: Because suspects are my part of ship to deal with. Can you check this? Is that the correct quote? The use of ship seems off to me, and just wondering if its a typo. - Cavalier OneFarStar(Squadron channel) 13:01, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
    • Checked it, its correct. Coruscantfan 22:08, May 24, 2011 (UTC)
Twin
  • Characters need to be referred to by their surnames. "Kal" is rampant throughout.
    • Done.
  • "Tur-Mukan had jumped in defense of several clone troopers who had discovered several Jedi Padawans in the checkpoint on the bridge extension. In the process of defending the clones, Tur-Mukan was sliced by a lightsaber." Who sliced her with a lightsaber? the Padawans?
    • Clarified.
  • That's all, not bad.—Tommy 9281 Saturday, May 28, 2011, 21:45 UTC
Moffship
  • Is there any reason why you use a generic Character infobox rather than the Galactic Empire character infobox? Obrim might have aided Skirata, but he still worked for the Empire.
    • Yes, I think using a Empire infobox is too misleading. Practically the entire series long Obrim is a Republic character. His days working for the Empire are only mentioned briefly in one or two chapters of 501st. And during that time in the book, his loyalty to the Empire isn't even true, his actions are traitorous (to the Empire) and he gives information to the help Skirata and Rebel Alliance and Jedi trying to escape. I mentioned those affiliations in the infobox, but like I said, I think it would be too misleading to use a different infobox besides generic considering all his different loyalties and his actions for or against those loyalties on the whole.
    • PS Note that Jon addressed this above. Whiplash is more accurate than Rebel Alliance. The above statements on infobox usage still stand though. Coruscantfan 13:59, June 19, 2011 (UTC)
      • Yet he officially serves the Empire. Seeing as his affiliations are mentioned in the infobox, and detailed in the article, a Galactic Empire character infobox would not confuse a reader. A generic infobox implies that he is completely neutral. Grand Moff Tranner Imperial Department of Military Research (Comlink) 01:34, June 21, 2011 (UTC)
        • Yeah, I do see your point, but my understanding is that the infobox reflects the affiliation/leanings of the character, and in that respect a neutral box seems better. Even if it does imply he is completely neutral, I think that would be more appropriate than implying he is an Imperial, which, considering the character as a whole and most of the time frame of the material concerning him, is the complete opposite case. Neutral also prevents someone from saying he should have a Mando colored box or a something to affiliate him with Whiplash, which could also be argued for. Coruscantfan 01:49, June 21, 2011 (UTC)
  • "...Skirata and his crew would take down the main group. After Skirata and his team were successful in neutralizing the main terrorist team..." - This is a little redundant. I'd suggest eliminating the first mention of Skirata's objective to improve the flow of the paragraph.
    • Done.
  • Some context is needed on the Republic Central Medcenter, if only to clarify that it's not on Gaftikar.
  • "...under the loyal and watchful gaze of the CSF officers whose lives Fi had saved." - I presume you're referring to the earlier hostage crisis; if so, please clarify this here.
    • Done.
  • "After Palpatine issued Order 66 [...] Obrim monitored the developments..." - What developments?
    • Done.
  • It's been a while since I read 501st, but does the book detail the formation of the ISB and its rivalry to Imperial Intelligence? I thought most of that information came from the Imperial Sourcebook.
    • Yes it does detail to a certain extent, one of the commandos even mentions the apparent absurdity of having two organizations doing seemingly the same thing. Mostly it mentions the formation of ISB and its effect on CSF though.
  • That's all for now. Interesting character. Grand Moff Tranner Imperial Department of Military Research (Comlink) 15:47, June 11, 2011 (UTC)
    • Thanks, I thought so too. Coruscantfan 17:00, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

Comments

Approved as a Featured article by Inquisitorius 20:18, June 23, 2011 (UTC)

  • I know people have been twitchy about it before, so could you check/verify that Traviss is okay with the email being made public? NAYAYEN—it appears to be a frammistat 00:51, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
    • I had checked on it before I uploaded it.Coruscantfan 01:10, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
      • For the record, I contacted her again and she has no issue with the email being public. Coruscantfan 14:40, January 3, 2011 (UTC)