Wookieepedia > Wookieepedia:AgriCorps > AC/Meeting 53
 HO HO HO | |
| AgriCorps Meeting Times | |
|---|---|
| Americas | |
| UTC−12 | 09:00 Saturday, December 22 |
| UTC−11 | 10:00 Saturday, December 22 |
| UTC−10 (Hawaii) | 11:00 Saturday, December 22 |
| UTC−9 (AKST) | 12:00 Saturday, December 22 |
| UTC−8 (PST) | 13:00 Saturday, December 22 |
| UTC−7 (MST) | 14:00 Saturday, December 22 |
| UTC−6 (CST) | 15:00 Saturday, December 22 |
| UTC−5 (EST) | 16:00 Saturday, December 22 |
| UTC−4 (AST) | 17:00 Saturday, December 22 |
| UTC−3 | 18:00 Saturday, December 22 |
| UTC−2 | 19:00 Saturday, December 22 |
| Europe and Africa | |
| UTC−1 | 20:00 Saturday, December 22 |
| UTC/GMT | 21:00 Saturday, December 22 |
| UTC+1 (CET) | 22:00 Saturday, December 22 |
| UTC+2 (EET) | 23:00 Saturday, December 22 |
| Asia and Oceania | |
| UTC+3 | 00:00 Sunday, December 23 |
| UTC+4 | 01:00 Sunday, December 23 |
| UTC+5 | 02:00 Sunday, December 23 |
| UTC+6 | 03:00 Sunday, December 23 |
| UTC+7 | 04:00 Sunday, December 23 |
| UTC+8 (AWST) | 05:00 Sunday, December 23 |
| UTC+9 (KST) | 06:00 Sunday, December 23 |
| UTC+10 (AEST) | 07:00 Sunday, December 23 |
| UTC+11 (AEDT) | 08:00 Sunday, December 23 |
| UTC+12 | 09:00 Sunday, December 23 |
| UTC+13 (NZDT) | 10:00 Sunday, December 23 |
- "IT'S THE EXPRESSION ON THEIR LITTLE FACES I LIKE"
"You mean sort of fear and awe and not knowing whether to laugh or cry or wet their pants?"
"YES. NOW THAT IS WHAT I CALL BELIEF." - ―An AgriCorps member explains just why he enjoys his job. Especially at Christmas.
AgriCorps! The Auditors of Reality are threatening existence and also, incidentally, Christmas. Therefore, we need to do the one and only thing we can do! Which is hold Meeting 53 and hope that someone else deals with it. Meeting 53 will be held on December 22nd at the usual time.
Agenda
Realities to be revised
Realities to be considered for deletion
GA maintenance for reference.
- Ballad of Cham Syndulla — In light of the recent community decision to exclude lyrics from real-world music articles, the lyrics section here should be reconsidered to determine whether to apply the same to this article. —MJ— Jedi Council Chambers 21:36, December 10, 2012 (UTC)
- An idea: What about including them in the Full text template, like in Order 65? Menkooroo (talk) 23:18, December 10, 2012 (UTC)
- That was discussed in the CT, IIRC, and rejected. It's either fair use or it's not. Claiming something is fair use when it's not does not make it fair use. Or to put it another way, the excerpt template would be nothing more than lipstick on a pig. —MJ— Holocomm 23:30, December 10, 2012 (UTC)
- The first thing we need to understand is that there is a huge difference between real-world, licensed lyrics from real, actual songs and fictional lyrics that were created for a comic story. There is no specific license on these lyrics like there would be for Duel of the Fates. Presenting these fictional lyrics is no different than presenting any other copyrighted text from that or any story in the form of a quote, as we do. If someone has a problem with presenting that much copyrighted text, that's another issue altogether. But this is completely different from what we discussed regarding fair-use for real-world lyrics. It doesn't even apply here. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea, nonetheless, to stick these lyrics into a full-text template, as Menkooroo suggests, to be safe for the sake of general copyright infringement. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 01:39, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
- With all due respect, I frankly don't see the difference. In both cases, it's a very large quote from a copyrighted work that could harm the potential market of the original. Real or fictional shouldn't make a difference here. As for your last sentence, I stand by my previous statement; the template is just lipstick on a pig. —MJ— Holocomm 01:54, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
- You're failing to understand the presence of copyright license. There is a very specific copyright license that exists in the real world to protect musical artists' lyrics, which judges and courts strictly enforce. It's this very specific copyright license that we cower from which prevents us from posting full lyrics to a song like Duel of the Fates. This specific copyright license for real music does not exist for a fictional creation from a comic book story. The only legal threat to us for fictional lyrics is basic copyright infringement, which would be the same as posting an entire block of text from any copyrighted novel or story. We're talking apples and oranges here. Completely different things. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 02:07, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
- Maybe another way to put it to perhaps help you understand what I'm saying is to look at the mediums. We're talking about lyrics from real music vs. fictional, narrative lyrics from a comic book. That's what the difference is, legally speaking. These fictional lyrics are not covered in the real world under the same copyright license system that governs music. The legal dangers we discussed in that CT simply do not apply here. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 02:19, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I have never heard of special laws regarding lyrics or any other specific type of work. To my understanding, all copyrighted works, including song lyrics and fictional works, are protected by the exact same copyright laws. I did a Google search for "song lyrics copyright" and could not find anything indicating that lyrics were a special case. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd very much like to see it. —MJ— Jedi Council Chambers 02:29, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
- Jonathan, I love ya, but you're way off the mark on this one. I don't know whether different copyright laws exist for different mediums. That was my non-legal expertise, and probably poor, way of attempting to explain it. But that's not the point. I'm going to try and break this down as simply as I can. This is the same as this and this, legally speaking. This is not the same as this. Yes, they are all covered by copyright law. What matters is that copyright and fair-use laws for print works are not enforced in the real world in the same way that music and song lyrics are. The difference is probably that the music industry makes a lot more money than the print industry, so license holders care a lot more when their work is replicated. As was discussed in that CT, there apparently is no fair-use legal right to use music lyrics (Read this). But these are not music lyrics. This is text from a comic book. I believe we are well within our fair use rights to present these fictional lyrics, just like we would any narrative text inside of a quote template. Using a full-text template isn't lipstick on a pig. It's legitimate fair-use legal coverage. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 02:51, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
- I still don't see a significant difference. Fair use applies to everything by law; that blog you linked to is way off the mark. The only difference I see is how heavily authors tend to enforce the copyright, which shouldn't be a factor in our decision; we should make the decision based on what is or isn't fair use, not on how likely we are to get a takedown notice, and it's not fair use when the re-use is so extensive that it effectively replaces the market role of the original. However, I'm tired of arguing this, so I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. —MJ— Council Chambers 03:23, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
- If you don't want to continue the debate, I have no problem with that, but I think it bears clarifying that we have a stark difference in interpretation here, and I believe yours is observably incorrect. You're trying to treat these fictional lyrics for a non-existent song with no accompanying music the same as real lyrics from real-world music, and they're just not the same thing. They're not lyrics at all in the same legal sense that lyrics attached to a licensed song or music piece are, which was the origin of this debate. For our purposes, the Ballad of Cham Syndulla is a snippet of comic book text, which I believe firmly falls within our legal rights to present it under fair-use law in the same way we do for anything we quote from any licensed print work. If the Ballad of Cham Syndulla doesn't fall under fair use in that regard, then by my estimation nothing we ever present in a full-text template or quote template should either, and I think that's just silly. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 03:45, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
- I'll make one final comment here and then I'm done. The point that I was trying to make is that the type of work is irrrelevant; a copyrighted work is a copyrighted work, period. The laws apply the same way no matter what. And the difference between quoting the entire Ballad (IIRC, all but one page of that particular comic story) and quoting two lines of dialogue from a 350-page novel is a matter of "amount and substantiality" and the effect on the original work's value. I'm out. —MJ— Jedi Council Chambers 03:52, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not typing this response to try and goad you into continuing this debate. But this needs to be clarified. You're wrong -- all copyright laws are not created equal, because they aren't all enforced the same way, which is what I was illustrating with that blog post. There is no fair-use right for using music lyrics, which is why we don't post them now. There is fair-use right for quoting pieces of text from a print work, which is why we are able to employ our Full-text and Quote templates. I believe it's accurate to interpret the Ballad of Cham Syndulla by its nature as printed text, which would fall under fair-use, rather than as music lyrics, which would not. If you have an issue with the sheer size of the Ballad and whether that falls under fair-use, I think you probably have a case there, but that's a totally different issue than what you first brought up with that real-world music CT discussion. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk)
- I'll make one final comment here and then I'm done. The point that I was trying to make is that the type of work is irrrelevant; a copyrighted work is a copyrighted work, period. The laws apply the same way no matter what. And the difference between quoting the entire Ballad (IIRC, all but one page of that particular comic story) and quoting two lines of dialogue from a 350-page novel is a matter of "amount and substantiality" and the effect on the original work's value. I'm out. —MJ— Jedi Council Chambers 03:52, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
- If you don't want to continue the debate, I have no problem with that, but I think it bears clarifying that we have a stark difference in interpretation here, and I believe yours is observably incorrect. You're trying to treat these fictional lyrics for a non-existent song with no accompanying music the same as real lyrics from real-world music, and they're just not the same thing. They're not lyrics at all in the same legal sense that lyrics attached to a licensed song or music piece are, which was the origin of this debate. For our purposes, the Ballad of Cham Syndulla is a snippet of comic book text, which I believe firmly falls within our legal rights to present it under fair-use law in the same way we do for anything we quote from any licensed print work. If the Ballad of Cham Syndulla doesn't fall under fair use in that regard, then by my estimation nothing we ever present in a full-text template or quote template should either, and I think that's just silly. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 03:45, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
- I still don't see a significant difference. Fair use applies to everything by law; that blog you linked to is way off the mark. The only difference I see is how heavily authors tend to enforce the copyright, which shouldn't be a factor in our decision; we should make the decision based on what is or isn't fair use, not on how likely we are to get a takedown notice, and it's not fair use when the re-use is so extensive that it effectively replaces the market role of the original. However, I'm tired of arguing this, so I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. —MJ— Council Chambers 03:23, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
- Jonathan, I love ya, but you're way off the mark on this one. I don't know whether different copyright laws exist for different mediums. That was my non-legal expertise, and probably poor, way of attempting to explain it. But that's not the point. I'm going to try and break this down as simply as I can. This is the same as this and this, legally speaking. This is not the same as this. Yes, they are all covered by copyright law. What matters is that copyright and fair-use laws for print works are not enforced in the real world in the same way that music and song lyrics are. The difference is probably that the music industry makes a lot more money than the print industry, so license holders care a lot more when their work is replicated. As was discussed in that CT, there apparently is no fair-use legal right to use music lyrics (Read this). But these are not music lyrics. This is text from a comic book. I believe we are well within our fair use rights to present these fictional lyrics, just like we would any narrative text inside of a quote template. Using a full-text template isn't lipstick on a pig. It's legitimate fair-use legal coverage. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 02:51, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I have never heard of special laws regarding lyrics or any other specific type of work. To my understanding, all copyrighted works, including song lyrics and fictional works, are protected by the exact same copyright laws. I did a Google search for "song lyrics copyright" and could not find anything indicating that lyrics were a special case. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd very much like to see it. —MJ— Jedi Council Chambers 02:29, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
- With all due respect, I frankly don't see the difference. In both cases, it's a very large quote from a copyrighted work that could harm the potential market of the original. Real or fictional shouldn't make a difference here. As for your last sentence, I stand by my previous statement; the template is just lipstick on a pig. —MJ— Holocomm 01:54, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
- The first thing we need to understand is that there is a huge difference between real-world, licensed lyrics from real, actual songs and fictional lyrics that were created for a comic story. There is no specific license on these lyrics like there would be for Duel of the Fates. Presenting these fictional lyrics is no different than presenting any other copyrighted text from that or any story in the form of a quote, as we do. If someone has a problem with presenting that much copyrighted text, that's another issue altogether. But this is completely different from what we discussed regarding fair-use for real-world lyrics. It doesn't even apply here. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea, nonetheless, to stick these lyrics into a full-text template, as Menkooroo suggests, to be safe for the sake of general copyright infringement. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 01:39, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
- That was discussed in the CT, IIRC, and rejected. It's either fair use or it's not. Claiming something is fair use when it's not does not make it fair use. Or to put it another way, the excerpt template would be nothing more than lipstick on a pig. —MJ— Holocomm 23:30, December 10, 2012 (UTC)
- An idea: What about including them in the Full text template, like in Order 65? Menkooroo (talk) 23:18, December 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Bulduga—update required.
- PLNK-series power droid—update required.
- Zelka Forn—TOR update tag, but the update-worthy material needs to be located as well. CC7567 (talk) 19:02, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
Discussion on the nature of reality and beliefs
- Since I cannot make it, I will giving Xd my discussion notes for the meeting. JangFett (Talk) 14:47, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
Attendance
Rich kids with shiny belt buckles
- Cavalier One
(Squadron channel) 21:24, December 10, 2012 (UTC) - Doesn't matter. World's ending December 21 anyway. IFYLOFD (Floyd's crib) 22:52, December 10, 2012 (UTC)
- —Cal Jedi (Personal Comm Channel) 22:55, December 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Per Floyd. 1358 (Talk) 22:01, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
- Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 23:24, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
Snotty-nosed street urchins
- Will be on a plane. CC7567 (talk) 21:23, December 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Will be painting JangFett (Talk) 14:47, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
Christmas cards
- Jangeth
- CC
- Keep: Kao Cen Darach
- Kill: Wukkar
- Probe: Bulduga, PLNK-series power droid, Zelka Forn
- Spare: Ballad of Cham Syndulla—I will admit that I'm biased, but I personally agree with Toprawa in that comic material isn't the exact same thing as real-world music lyrics. I would be fine with removing the lyrics from the article if community consensus was to do so, though that might require that we reevaluate how we treat textual copyrighted material across the site. CC7567 (talk) 19:12, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
Minutes
- Articles kept: Kao Cen Darach
- Articles killed: Wukkar, Bimm (Near-Human)
- Articles probed: Bulduga, PLNK-series power droid
- Articles spared: Zelka Forn, Ballad of Cham Syndulla
- Roberto J. McFloydo does the paperwork. He's also scheduling the next meeting.