Death Star Death
Apparently, Chief Bast did NOT survive the explosion of the Death Star to appear in the Holiday Special; Leland Chee notes that his presence is N-canon in this thread. It must be another officer with an uncanny resemblance to Bast, perhaps even a relative. jSarek 06:05, 7 Jul 2005 (UTC)
- Not to mention holding exactly the same rank. Weird. — Silly Dan 00:16, 28 Jul 2005 (UTC)
- Official Site gossip doesn't outrank EU evidence. "N-canon" Holiday Special outranks discussion board opinions.
- That "opinion" happens to be from Leland Chee, "Keeper of the Holocron" for Lucasfilm. If he says that something is considered apocryphal, then it is, because he's the one who maintains the database that says so. jSarek 04:10, 9 Sep 2005 (UTC)
- It's still only an opinion; not evidence. There is no Pope of Star Wars. Staffers come and go.
- It's not just an opinion. Staffers may come and go, but his job isn't to make the decisions; his job (among other things, as the Keeper of the Holocron is a pretty full plate) is to record the decisions of George Lucas and the rest of Lucasfilm with regards to the canonicity of certain events. There *is* a pope of Star Wars - George Lucas; and there's also a Curia - the upper echelons of Lucasfilm. Leland Chee is simply the papal recordkeeper, and is reporting to the faithful what those records say in this instance. If he were to be replaced, those records still wouldn't change unless there was a decree from the Papacy or the Curia themselves. jSarek 04:31, 9 Sep 2005 (UTC)
- There is no Pope or Curia. Ownership is not Truth. Lucafilm holds the sole legal right to publish "Star Wars" material. The publications are the evidence and the substance of "Star Wars". The Holocron is not a publication and is not evidence. As you say, it is an attempt at internal record-keeping. It does not define continuity. The Holocron changes, back and forth.
- And we must do our best to follow it, since it's pretty much the very definition of Star Wars canon. Please sign your comments, by the way. – Aidje talk 04:58, 9 Sep 2005 (UTC)
- As Adje has pointed out, Official canon policy is that the Imperial Officer seen in the Holiday Special IS NOT Bast. He just look similar. QuentinGeorge 00:22, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- 5 credits says he's a clone. — Silly Dan 00:28, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- Extra 5 says his name is Baast. MarcK 00:32, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- Nah, 15 says it's Bastard. lol Adamwankenobi 00:43, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- Extra 5 says his name is Baast. MarcK 00:32, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- 5 credits says he's a clone. — Silly Dan 00:28, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- There is no Pope or Curia. Ownership is not Truth. Lucafilm holds the sole legal right to publish "Star Wars" material. The publications are the evidence and the substance of "Star Wars". The Holocron is not a publication and is not evidence. As you say, it is an attempt at internal record-keeping. It does not define continuity. The Holocron changes, back and forth.
- It's not just an opinion. Staffers may come and go, but his job isn't to make the decisions; his job (among other things, as the Keeper of the Holocron is a pretty full plate) is to record the decisions of George Lucas and the rest of Lucasfilm with regards to the canonicity of certain events. There *is* a pope of Star Wars - George Lucas; and there's also a Curia - the upper echelons of Lucasfilm. Leland Chee is simply the papal recordkeeper, and is reporting to the faithful what those records say in this instance. If he were to be replaced, those records still wouldn't change unless there was a decree from the Papacy or the Curia themselves. jSarek 04:31, 9 Sep 2005 (UTC)
- It's still only an opinion; not evidence. There is no Pope of Star Wars. Staffers come and go.
- That "opinion" happens to be from Leland Chee, "Keeper of the Holocron" for Lucasfilm. If he says that something is considered apocryphal, then it is, because he's the one who maintains the database that says so. jSarek 04:10, 9 Sep 2005 (UTC)
But, Leeland Chee's OPINIONS cannot possibly be EU, no matter if he threw them into the holocron or not. Adamwankenobi 00:46, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- If that were true, then a hell lot of articles would have to be completley redone like Revans. And he is an employee of Lucasfilms (right?) — Redemption
- I'm just saying that you can't take something he decided as continuity. Now if he had said that, based on something in the EU, then he would be correct in doing it, becuase it would be from a work more widely accepted by Lucasfilm officials than him. Adamwankenobi 00:50, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- Well he also decided Revan is a male, now I don't agree with taht but you don't see me crying about it. Its my word over an employee at Lucasfilms. Thats not going to work. He is in charge of EU and thats the way it is. Just accept it. You don't have to accept it but wiki is trying to be a reliable source. You can't get fans opinions mixed up in it. Redemption
- And you can't take a guy's who just happened to be picked as continuity supervisor either. It's not my opinion, it's what EU sources give. The holiday special implies that he survived. It was AN ACTUAL EU work. Chee's OPINION can't be taken over an actual EU work. Adamwankenobi 00:56, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- As he's in charge of making sure various EU works agree with each other and with the films, his opinion is final unless contradicted by a later retcon. — Silly Dan 00:59, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- In other words, unless George Lucas says that he survived, hes dead. Redemption
- Nope, unless it is in a published EU source that he's dead, he survived, due to the holiday special. Lucas has nothing to do with it. And SillyDan, that's absolutely correct in your saying that his job is making sure various works agree with each other. That's what he does, he's not an EU writer. Adamwankenobi 01:13, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- Did it anywhere in that movie that it was Bast? I don't think so. The movie didn't say that was Bast, so, Leeland opinion takes over.
- Firstly, whether it not it is an "opinion" is irrelevant. The Holocron is used by EU authors to stay in continuity. Therefore, if a book is written about Bast, it will go by the Holocron - ie, he dies on the Death Star. As I say on my discussion page, the fact that the same actor portrays the characters is irrelevant. No one argues that Rya Kirsch survived the Battle of Naboo and became Tannon Praji now, do they? QuentinGeorge 01:22, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- Nope, unless it is in a published EU source that he's dead, he survived, due to the holiday special. Lucas has nothing to do with it. And SillyDan, that's absolutely correct in your saying that his job is making sure various works agree with each other. That's what he does, he's not an EU writer. Adamwankenobi 01:13, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- In other words, unless George Lucas says that he survived, hes dead. Redemption
- As he's in charge of making sure various EU works agree with each other and with the films, his opinion is final unless contradicted by a later retcon. — Silly Dan 00:59, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- And you can't take a guy's who just happened to be picked as continuity supervisor either. It's not my opinion, it's what EU sources give. The holiday special implies that he survived. It was AN ACTUAL EU work. Chee's OPINION can't be taken over an actual EU work. Adamwankenobi 00:56, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- Well he also decided Revan is a male, now I don't agree with taht but you don't see me crying about it. Its my word over an employee at Lucasfilms. Thats not going to work. He is in charge of EU and thats the way it is. Just accept it. You don't have to accept it but wiki is trying to be a reliable source. You can't get fans opinions mixed up in it. Redemption
- I'm just saying that you can't take something he decided as continuity. Now if he had said that, based on something in the EU, then he would be correct in doing it, becuase it would be from a work more widely accepted by Lucasfilm officials than him. Adamwankenobi 00:50, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
Think for a second. Is it more likely that:
A. Bast survived, since he suggested to Tarkin that the death star be evacuated? Not to mention that he took part in analyzing the attack, and knew the danger. Don't forget that it is documented in the EU that Maximillian Veers also survived the Death Star.
or
B. A clone of him wound up having the exact rank as him, or someone looked terrible like him, and happened to be in the empire?
- It doesn't matter which is "more likely". It matters what is canon. QuentinGeorge 01:29, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
Um, A. Leland Chee needs to watch episode IV again, I believe. Adamwankenobi 01:25, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- That won't really help because we don't see Bast make any attempt at an escape in that movie. QuentinGeorge 01:29, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- Of course it matters what is canon, which is why I changed the page. Even if we don't see him escape, it's likely he did. And, Leeland Chee needs to think about things like this. Don't go fucking up the wikipedia article too. At least it will be accurate.Adamwankenobi 01:31, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
For some reason, Adamwankenobi, you are of the notion that Leland Chee is the one who makes these decisions. He's not; he's merely a guy who keeps the record of what the decisions are and has a little bit of say with the guys who make the decisions. To use an example of what goes on, we'll take one that's already mentioned - the gender of the KOTOR protagonists. To quote something he said here, "I'm certainly pushing for the KOTOR2 player character to be female, but nothing yet has been decided." Why would he be "pushing" if he could just make up what he wanted and put it in the Holocron? The answer is, because he can't; it's NOT his decision. It has to be put to a committee of people beyond just him, and they deliberate on it and decide on an answer. The same thing happened here; for some reason (most likely a decree from Lucas, who I'm sure has a lot to say about one of the things he regrets most about his career), the decision was made by the Powers That Be - who are more than just Leland Chee - that Bast died on the Death Star, and that his appearance in the Holiday Special is non-continuity. That's the official internal Lucasfilm stance, and it's silly for us to try and present things otherwise. jSarek 01:59, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- As I said on Quentin's talk page, if they tried to make that canon, then you would have to come up with an explanation for who the guy was with Vader in the holiday special. That would make the situation more complicated, and make less sense. It would make more sense, and be a simpler explanation if they would pay attention to ANH, and see that Bast knew about the danger, and would have been likely to survive. The events in ANH would have made the fact that he was in the holiday special make perfect sense. To say otherwise, and come up with a new explanation is, well, not needed. Adamwankenobi 02:06, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- You're right in every part of this paragraph. The problem is, none of this has anything to do with what's continuity or not. Just because it's more *sensible* for it to be Bast doesn't mean that it *is*. jSarek 02:08, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- Well, I'm going to have to take a trip over to Leeland Chee's message board at the OS, and ask him exactly why he feels the way he does. Adamwankenobi 02:11, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- You keep bringing up likley. It was also likley that the Death Star would destroy Yavin but that never happened. You can't base things on "likliness". Redemption
- That event was seen on film, and is thus G-Canon. Bast surviving was also seen on film. All Chee wants to do is make it more complicated, which isn't a good thing. Bast survived, but Chee wants it different for some reason. The holiday special surpasses him, becuase it is an EU work. BY THE WAY, CHECK OUT THE IMDB, THEY SPECIFICALLY LIST BAST AS THE CHARACTER! Adamwankenobi 03:45, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- The Holiday Special, not being one of the six main films, counts as Expanded Universe material, and is therefore not G-Canon. The IMDB depends on user-submitted information, and is not always reliable. — Silly Dan 03:48, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- Anyone remember the Episode II credit at IMDB that had "Master Yoda D'Kana the Whill"? Heh. QuentinGeorge 03:59, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- Why you think this is some personal conspiracy from Leland Chee is beyond me. Can you not accept the current internal LFL policy which is Bast's appearance in the Holiday Special is not canon.? QuentinGeorge 04:00, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- That event was seen on film, and is thus G-Canon. Bast surviving was also seen on film. All Chee wants to do is make it more complicated, which isn't a good thing. Bast survived, but Chee wants it different for some reason. The holiday special surpasses him, becuase it is an EU work. BY THE WAY, CHECK OUT THE IMDB, THEY SPECIFICALLY LIST BAST AS THE CHARACTER! Adamwankenobi 03:45, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- You keep bringing up likley. It was also likley that the Death Star would destroy Yavin but that never happened. You can't base things on "likliness". Redemption
- Well, I'm going to have to take a trip over to Leeland Chee's message board at the OS, and ask him exactly why he feels the way he does. Adamwankenobi 02:11, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- You're right in every part of this paragraph. The problem is, none of this has anything to do with what's continuity or not. Just because it's more *sensible* for it to be Bast doesn't mean that it *is*. jSarek 02:08, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
No, I can't, as the holiday special offers a logical explanation, given Bast's worries and analysis in ANH, and Chee's wouldn't. Like I said, if what he says was canon, you would have to come up with some weird story about him being a clone, and give an official explanation for why he was cloned, and things like that. I can't quite see his purpose in wanting the fact that he survived not to be canon. The holiday special should be proof that he survived, without Chee conspiring and coming up with silly fan fiction about Bast dying and the other guy "actually being a clone or lookalike." Lookalike?!? Yeah, I'll bet! With the same rank, and happening to work for the empire?!? I'm not buying that crap. Sounds too much like stuff SuperShadow would come up with, doesn't it? Well, like I said, I'll ask Leeland Chee about it tomorrow on the OS boards and see what he has to say. Adamwankenobi 08:04, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- We have our answer from Mr. Chee - "Chief Bast - the Star Wars Encyclopedia said he died, so we consider him dead." jSarek 22:09, 24 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- Yeah, I know, I was just about to post that here. I am now content with the canonocity of his death. However, I will have to make some minor adjustments to the "behind the scenes section. Adamwankenobi 23:14, 24 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- On a final note, here is an amusing non-canon explanation: [1]. — Silly Dan 00:43, 25 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- Hmm... amusing, though I wonder who the girl beside him is. Canon argument anyone? lol! Adamwankenobi 00:51, 25 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- We're unlikely to get full and complete explanations from George Lucas on this, given that he wishes to destroy the Holidy Special("If I had time and a hammer, I'd smash every copy") anyway. ZeldaTheSwordsman 18:56, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm... amusing, though I wonder who the girl beside him is. Canon argument anyone? lol! Adamwankenobi 00:51, 25 Oct 2005 (UTC)
New evidence
The Star Wars Customizable Card Game, I have discovered, states that Bast escaped the death star before it was destroyed. So what would take precedence in this case? Would Sansweet's Star Wars encyclopedia or the SW: CCG? Adamwankenobi 18:16, 6 Nov 2005 (UTC)
- Which card says that? The Bast character card doesn't. I love the idea that he survived, since he seems to be the only Imperial on the Death Star who wasn't a dick, but unless I missed something SWCCG doesn't appear to prove this hypothesis. —Darth Culator (talk) 19:19, 6 Nov 2005 (UTC)
- Well, someone originally added it to the star wars holiday special article at wikipedia, and seemed to know the cards very well. I'm not quite sure myself, I'll try to track them down and ask them about it. If a card really doews say that, then I would guess it would take precedence over the encyclopedia, since Sansweet's encyclopedia merely reports things from other sources. Adamwankenobi 19:26, 6 Nov 2005 (UTC)
- Hold on a second, I just checked your link, and at the bottom of the card, it implies that he would have evacutaed. Take another look. Adamwankenobi 19:29, 6 Nov 2005 (UTC)
- Hmm. I think the general rule for things like that is the top box would be canon and the bottom box would be "game mechanics," which are not canon. It does seem like that might be what the card designer wanted to say, but that's not my call to make. What I don't get is why LFL policy seems to be resistant to the idea of Death Star survivors. —Darth Culator (talk) 19:50, 6 Nov 2005 (UTC)
- I don't know. I asked Leland Chee himself at sw.com and he simply told me that he goes by Steve Sansweet's star wars encyclopedia. But, the card would suggest that he would naturally evacuate the death star or something. I'm going to have to ask Leland again about it over at the OS. Adamwankenobi 20:01, 6 Nov 2005 (UTC)
- Hmm. I think the general rule for things like that is the top box would be canon and the bottom box would be "game mechanics," which are not canon. It does seem like that might be what the card designer wanted to say, but that's not my call to make. What I don't get is why LFL policy seems to be resistant to the idea of Death Star survivors. —Darth Culator (talk) 19:50, 6 Nov 2005 (UTC)
- Hold on a second, I just checked your link, and at the bottom of the card, it implies that he would have evacutaed. Take another look. Adamwankenobi 19:29, 6 Nov 2005 (UTC)
- Well, someone originally added it to the star wars holiday special article at wikipedia, and seemed to know the cards very well. I'm not quite sure myself, I'll try to track them down and ask them about it. If a card really doews say that, then I would guess it would take precedence over the encyclopedia, since Sansweet's encyclopedia merely reports things from other sources. Adamwankenobi 19:26, 6 Nov 2005 (UTC)
OK, I asked him, and he replied here. He says that he didn't know about that card and will make a note about it in the database. If you'll read it, he also says that now they won't make a firm decision about whether or not Bast is considered dead until an author writes about him. Adamwankenobi 12:38, 8 Nov 2005 (UTC)
More about Bast's alleged demise
I know people are probably tired of arguing about whether or not Bast managed to get off the Death Star in time, but after watching A New Hope again just now, I don't think his escape is likely. I'll need someone to take a screenshot from the DVD to confirm this, but isn't that him standing beside Tarkin when he says "You may fire when ready," mere moments before the Death Star goes kablooey? - Kooshmeister
- Amazing that after all the arguing and discussion above, no one has anything to say about this. - Kooshmeister
- Didn't even notice this until just now, as I'm editing the article to reflect this fact. Leland Chee brought it up here. It is confirmed that it's NOT Bast in the Star Wars Holiday Special. jSarek 19:17, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
- Hasbro's 2007 Death Star Briefing action figure pack claims: "He is one of very few Imperial officers to successfully evacuate from the Death Star before its destruction." That, coupled with the "operations lieutenant" delivering the bad news to Tarkin could be a retcon. 181stAce 19:26, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- Are you sure, I just seen that clip as well and that looks alot like Bast standing next to Tarkin.--Admrial Thrawn 08:37, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
Behind the Scenes
- I have removed a point stating that Bast is the only olive-uniformed officer in ANH who wears a hat. Captain Khurgee wears one as well. DeathSquadron 03:12, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Simple Solutions
- 1. Bast has a fraternal twin. It is quite plausible twins entered academy at same time, rose through ranks at comparable pace, and one was on Death Star (ANH) and other on Devastator (HS).
- 2. Bast had himself cloned. We know that efficient officers often submitted their DNA for cloning, as has been established in many sources by now, and Bast seems a competent officer of the type Vader would admire and want a clone of on his ship. So, yes, it is VERY likely a clone o him would be in the Empire. Where else would they be?JustinGann 21:50, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- I think you meant identical twin. But yeah, I'm going to go with the clone explanation.--Valin Kenobi 02:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Identical twin brother
The man seen in holiday special could in fact be Bast's identical twin brother. —Unsigned comment by 80.42.41.230 (talk • contribs)
- Yes, he could be. But since we have no canon evidence for this fact, we can't state it in the article. jSarek 17:41, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
RANK
According to Tagge and Motti's respective pages, they were equal in rank to one another yet Bast's page suggests that he was inferior to Tagge while being a superior of Motti. Is there a simple explanation that I'm missing? Perhaps I don't understand military ranking as well as I could. Red7 15:56, June 8, 2010 (UTC)red7