Merge
Why are we treating them as different things? Yeah the armor looks slightly different, but the intention seems pretty clear that these are meant to be the same organization as the guards from The Last Jedi. Rsand 30 (talk) 17:43, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- I agree. "Praetorian Guard" and "Elite Praetorian Guard" are clearly intended to be the same thing. ThrawnChiss7
Assembly Cupola 18:05, 12 April 2023 (UTC) - I also agree, it really seems they're supposed to be the same thing. After all, Gideon did get them from Hux. Timjer (talk) 18:10, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- Note that one is called the Elite Praetorian Guard and one is just the Praetorian Guard. One could be the elite guard and the other just the "normal" guard, so until a source establishes that they're the same organization, we shouldn't merge the pages. Samonic
(Talk) 19:09, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I disagree that that is sufficient proof; that's like saying we should treat the Rebel Alliance as a different faction than the Alliance to Restore the Republic. Or that the Seperatists are a different sub-group of the CIS. Hux calling them the "Praetorian Guard" wihtout the "elite" part could very well just be shortening their official name. Timjer (talk) 19:13, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- Sources have shortened Elite Praetorian Guard as just the Praetorian Guard. And I believe the actual Praetorian Guard has been referred to as "Elite Praetorian Guard". So it appears that the Elite Praetorian Guard and Praetorian Guard are one and the same. Rsand 30 (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- If sources have shortened Elite Praetorian Guard as the Praetorian Guard, then sure, merge the pages. You could've mentioned it earlier, though. :P Samonic
(Talk) 19:19, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- lol well, here are the one's I've found: Force Friday II: First Look at Select New Star Wars Products on StarWars.com (backup link), Star Wars: Destiny — Destiny Card: Praetorian Guard (backup link), Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know, Updated and Expanded, Check Out the Bold, New Star Wars: The Last Jedi "Pop Icon" Posters on StarWars.com (backup link), Star Wars: The Last Jedi: The Visual Dictionary, Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!, Star Wars Helmet Collection: B-wing Pilot Databank A-Z: Vibroblades–Cikatro Vizago, Ultimate Star Wars, New Edition (which uses a lowercase "elite Praetorian Guard" implying that's not part of the name and just a descriptor), Star Wars: Card Trader No set defined!, Gentle Giant Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Pack: Praetorian Guard Milestone Statue) (content now obsolete; backup link), Every Type of Trooper in Star Wars | Star Wars By the Numbers on the official Star Wars Kids YouTube channel (original link is obsolete), Electro-Bisento in the Databank (backup link), Electro-chain whip in the Databank (backup link), vibro-arbir blades in the Databank (backup link), Vibro-Voulge in the Databank (backup link), and Story Gallery | The Last Jedi on StarWars.com (backup link). Probably others, but Praetorian Guard is definitely just a shortening of the name. Rsand 30 (talk) 19:55, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think there's any debate around "Praetorian Guard" being a shortened form of the Elite Praetorian Guard; it's whether the Imperial remnant version is the same subject as the First Order version—the different affiliations alone makes treating them separate not an assumption in itself. Not only is the armour here different, but as Vitus mentioned on Discord, the Red Guard and the Imperial Royal Guard for example have the same roles but are different units. It's best to keep things separate until we have further information. OOM 224 (he/him) 20:02, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- While I do believe they are the same (or at least close enough precursors), I admit that we do not know enough about any potential differences between the Shadow Council and the young First Order. So while I can understand keeping them separate for now~(even if I don't fully agree), I do think that should it turn out that the Shadow Council and the First Order are already the same (like in the next episode or something), then it stands to reason that the Praetorians are also the same. Timjer (talk) 20:06, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- They probably are the same, but keeping them separate for now is fine. Rsand 30 (talk) 20:15, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think there's any debate around "Praetorian Guard" being a shortened form of the Elite Praetorian Guard; it's whether the Imperial remnant version is the same subject as the First Order version—the different affiliations alone makes treating them separate not an assumption in itself. Not only is the armour here different, but as Vitus mentioned on Discord, the Red Guard and the Imperial Royal Guard for example have the same roles but are different units. It's best to keep things separate until we have further information. OOM 224 (he/him) 20:02, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- lol well, here are the one's I've found:
- If sources have shortened Elite Praetorian Guard as the Praetorian Guard, then sure, merge the pages. You could've mentioned it earlier, though. :P Samonic
- We should definitely keep them separate until we know more. This article existed as a redirect, if anything it can be merged later. The reason why we shouldn't have them together as of yet is that we don't know the details surrounding its lineage. For example, the Emperor's Royal Guard. During the Galactic Republic, it was known as the Red Guard. When the Republic became the Galactic Empire, the Red Guard were renamed as the Royal Guard (or Imperial Royal Guard, Emperor's Royal Guard), but retained the same duties, the same armor, and were largely the same organization or group within both governments. Here, we have multiple distinctions. We have a "Praetorian Guard" with different armor, and different duties. For example, the Red/Royal Guard protected the Supreme Chancellor/Galactic Emperor. In this case, the Elite Praetorian Guard protected the Supreme Leader of the First Order. In Star Wars: The Mandalorian, these Praetorian Guards can be assigned to different individuals such as Moff Gideon, rather than having the sole duty of protecting the head of government/state. As such, there are enough differences to keep Praetorian Guard and Elite Praetorian Guard as separate organizations for the time being. I'm sure we will definitely know more, and we can make any appropriate changes then. --Vitus InfinitusTalk 23:49, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- Getty Images revealed the full title of "Imperial Praetorian Guard" so looks like they're different after all. Rsand 30 (talk) 21:52, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- And now Bounty Hunting Highlights: 5 of Our Favorite Moments from The Mandalorian - "Chapter 23: The Spies" on StarWars.com (backup link) says they're the same so I really don't know at this point. Rsand 30 (talk) 20:54, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Well, it seems to me like the Imperial Praetorian Guard evolved into the Elite Praetorian Guard when the Imperial Remnants formed the First Order (and thus they wouldn't be Imperial anymore), but aside from name change and perhaps upgraded equipment, maybe they were indeed the same organization after all. Perhaps we should do as the Emperor's Royal Guard page does, and merge them. Timjer (talk) 21:07, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Really we should merge. Have the intro be Elite Praetorian Guards, known as Imperial Praetorian Guards during the days of the Imperial Remnant and commonly shortened to Praetorian Guards, were..." Editoronthewiki (talk) 21:38, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- I think it's a case of better safe than sorry. Keeping the articles separate for, at most, one more week is no big deal. There's definitely going to be updates on SW.com as well as the DB entry following the finale, so we're going to have a more clear image of what the intention is. If there's still confusion or no new info has been revealed, we can always SH this.AxMech (talk) 22:40, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think we need much more than that starwars.com article confirming they're the same. We could just keep the Imperial Praetorian Guard article up for now as a subgroup/different early version but I think its definitely worth it to at least add the info about the Praetorians from the Mandalorian to the Elite Praetorian Guard article and add Chapter 23 to the appearances section until proven otherwise. Panther436 (talk) 23:58, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Maybe the "Praetorian Guard" page could become an actual page about the type of unit, with two different known examples of the unit, as sw.com merely say that "Praetorian guard" are in both mando and TLJ. ThrawnChiss7 Assembly Cupola 01:46, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- Maybe the "Praetorian Guard" page could become an actual page about the type of unit, with two different known examples of the unit, as sw.com merely say that "Praetorian guard" are in both mando and TLJ. ThrawnChiss7
- Considering that we didn't get any more info from starwars.com this week, shouldn't we just go with what it said before and add the info from this article to the other? It kinda seems silly and misleading not to. Panther436 (talk) 02:01, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think we need much more than that starwars.com article confirming they're the same. We could just keep the Imperial Praetorian Guard article up for now as a subgroup/different early version but I think its definitely worth it to at least add the info about the Praetorians from the Mandalorian to the Elite Praetorian Guard article and add Chapter 23 to the appearances section until proven otherwise. Panther436 (talk) 23:58, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Well, it seems to me like the Imperial Praetorian Guard evolved into the Elite Praetorian Guard when the Imperial Remnants formed the First Order (and thus they wouldn't be Imperial anymore), but aside from name change and perhaps upgraded equipment, maybe they were indeed the same organization after all. Perhaps we should do as the Emperor's Royal Guard page does, and merge them. Timjer (talk) 21:07, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- And now
Why 3?
Any ideas on why Gideon ordered 3 guards? The First order Praetorians work in pairs, so getting an odd number doesn't make a lot of sense. If there is an in-universe reason for having an odd number, it might give a reason for keeping the Imperial and First Order Praetorians on separate pages.
- Hello. Please see the header message above: "This space is used for discussion relating to changes to the article, not for a discussion about the topic in question. For general questions about the article's topic, please visit Wookieepedia:Discussions." Hope this helps, Imperators II(Talk) 20:19, 19 April 2023 (UTC)