Talk: Grand Army of the Republic/Legends

Phonetic alphabet

I've just been reading Labyrinth of Evil, and I've noticed that Clone troopers seem to have their own version of the NATO phonetic alphabet. So far I've identified three letters:

• B:Bacta
• I:Ion
• J:Jenth

If anyone can expand on this, please let me know. We could be on our way to a new article.--The All-knowing Sith'ari 16:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Jenth is Basic for J in the Aurebesh, and not part of another alphabet. As to the rest, I don't think the writers have a uniform system that they all use. Astro Droid 21:08, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

Grand Army Structure

I was thinking that in addition to the basic command structure shown on the page, it might be useful to try to compile a structure of the actual army itself, along with their respective clone commanders and Jedi generals. A rought example being: (All information taken from Third Systems Army page)

 *Third System Army (Led by Obi-Wan Kenobi)
   *7th Sky Corps
     *212th Attack Battalion
     *442nd Siege Battalion
   *501st Legion
etc...
 Any thoughts?

--Shadowxander 23:20, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I've taken a crack at putting together an ORG chart. Keep in mind this is just a rough. It would be nice to be able to fill some of the holes in but alas much just simply does not exist. I built out the entire structure down to the squad and it's expectedly massive. Just the few top levels on one Systems Army gets you off the screen quick.

image shack dot U S )/img21/7556/garorgchart.jpg GAR ORG Chart

It would be cool to lay out the rest of the organization, but they don't follow any clear pattern and anything else would clearly be fan-made. Although we could have some fun speculating on those. For example, you have Systems Army Alpha and then the Third Systems Army so it's not clear which naming convention should be applied to the other eight - letter/phonetic or numerical.

The sector armies seem to be numerical. With the 2nd Sector Army in Systems Army Alpha, one could assume the other Sector Army is the 1st. So would it follow that 3rd/4th are in Systems Army Bravo/Two? By that convention, the 7th Sky Corp would be in either the 5th or 6th Sector Army if it fall s under the Third Systems Army.

The numbering for the Corps are all over the board. They don't really fit sequentially, as in there are 8 Corps in System Army Alpha but since the 327th Star Corps falls under Alpha clearly they aren't getting numbered 1,2 3, ...8. Add to that that there are only 80 Corps in the whole GAR, throws the 327th out of whack. Granted they don't have to follow numerically and we see evidence of this within our own military ORGs within the Army. A lot of times those gaps/exceptions exist for historical reasons where units get restructured under a different command or their sequential counterparts get disbanded. But an Army like the GAR which is essential stood up overnight wouldn't have those kinds of historical impacts. One would think they would have been laid out somewhat coherently (unless they were named after some ancient Old Republic unit).

Also the Corps have one, two and three digit designations (7th Sky, 9th Assault, 21st Nova, 91st Recon, 327th Star) which makes it complicated to lay out systematically. One way would be to align them to a corresponding Army (i.e. 91st in the 9th System/Sector Army, 21st in the 2nd System/Sector Army, 327th in the 3rd System/Sector Army) but clearly that doesn't follow given what we currently have (21st in the 4th Sector & 327th in the Alpha/2nd Sector).

It's a shame that when Karen Traviss et al. started putting this to paper that they didn't sit down before hard and map out some realistic numbers/sizes and organization to keep everything straight. They should have expected any info they put out to be highly scrutinized by SW fans. Ob1anakin 18:43, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Army size

RC novel series is pretty explicit about the amount of CLONE troopers, that is, 3 million Kaminoan clone troopers, not units like brigades or even platoons. But it's implied that Spaarti Cloning employed by the Republic would've produced MILLIONS of (poorly trained) troopers... I don't believe that unit would've meant a brigade or any other unit, just single troopers. I think the size needs to be worked out really Woorloog 14:43, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

• Any novel doesn't usurp what is said in the movies, and in the movies, units are units, with no ulterior explanation. As it goes, the war is too large for simply 3 million individual clones to fight, since they are not only the main ground force, but also the pilots, crew and gunners on board the Republic's larger ships, like assault ships and destroyers, and in addition to that, have units patrolling most Republic worlds, even filling up space on city planets like Coruscant. All that at the same time, and with the amount of Republic space available, means they're not 3 million in total. If anything, a recent preview clip of the new tv show, has Dooku saying the battle droids outnumber the clones, 100 to 1. We know the droid numbers have been in the quintillions, which means the clone numbers would be in their tens of quadrillions. If they're meant to both pilot and serve in millions of various warships and on millions of planets, moons and asteroids spread throughout Republic space, that's how it's gotta be. :) VT-16 14:59, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Well i don't belive there were really quintillions of battle droids. Hundreds of millions is more realistic (even for space fantasy :), maybe even billions (BTW, are we using short or long scale anyway?) Have to admit that 3 million is not enough. in neither case really, no matter how good soldiers they're... One thing i don't like on SW is inconsistent stuff. How many people there are in the Republic anyway? Kal Skirata and Nulls got trillion credits by stealing half a cred from bank accounts (2 trillion). Maybe the war's effectivly so large that we cannot comprehend it... Woorloog 10:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Face it. The droid armys would have had at least 100 million droids to hold out, and still have some left for the numerous rebellions against the empire and the droid guards. The Republic would have needed around 75 million clones to do properly fight. Not all of these are clones. Factor in, lets say 15 million non-clones and you have 60 million clones. That's 20 times the amount the RC novels provide. (Note that all the numbers are approximations and are therefore non-canon) 203.123.89.166 11:03, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
    • I think we're using shortscale, if it's an English story, then that is the most likely scale used. The amount of droids being in the quintillions isn't hard to grasp with a galaxy of millions of planetary systems, and each system usually having multiple worlds and countless asteroids. Even gas giants can be used as staging grounds, with the use of repulsor platforms, so there's even more choices available to societies like the ones in SW. That the clones are somewhat less, is logical, given the more complex task of keeping alive and supporting biological organisms than mechanical ones. Even in the first 100 years of hyperdrive development, there were quintillions of engineers and technicians working on perfecting the designs, so scales of biological creatures can go that high in other areas. If the Republic can afford enough clones to guard Coruscant so extensively that there's a clone patrol "on every corner", this alone would be far in excess of just 3 million individuals, given they have to watch over trillions on that planet, alone. And that's not counting the clones working on the defense ships in orbit. VT-16 11:49, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
      • Yeah, all true. It's just frustrating that GAR's true size is not told (IMO, Clone Wars is THE event for me in SW, i wanna know all about it :) ). BTW where was 3 million first mentioned anyway? AotC? Can't remember... Woorloog 16:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
        • An article made by Karen Traviss in 2005, I believe. It was hinted at in her blog that she was basically making fun of people who debate technical stuff in SW, since it was advertized as containing the "true size" of the entire army, and she was "expecting reactions". All she did was barely double the size from the initial batch mentioned in the AOTC novel (1.2 million ready to go). Thankfully, the novel and the article and following novels have no authority over the films, where the number of individual clones in the entire army has never been pinned down. I only hope the series continues this vagueness. To give you a hint of the true silliness inherent in this low number, imagine the Battle of Berlin being fought with a pistol on each side. Not an entire soldier even, because that one soldier is busy fighting all fronts throughout the world at the same time, somehow. That's basically what it means to have 3 million individual clones fight ground battles, crew warships, and guard worlds, all throughout a galaxy of millions of habitable solar systems and even more worlds, moons and asteroids. If they want to have some amount of internal continuity, the best way is to never pin down any number that could later be ripped on. How many battles are there in this war now? Must be hundreds mentioned at least. And more will come as the show and comics and podcasts progress. How many clones got killed by the Malevolence? Dozens of task forces meaning a good percentage of "3 million clones", and that's at the start of the conflict, less than one year into it. VT-16 08:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

RE: Malevolence There had been a dozen raids on Republic task forces by the time the Republic finally pulled its head out of its shebs and sent poor ole Plo Koon after the Malevolence. At least one task force (that depicted in the online companion comic) has three VenStars. Koon's thirteenth task force had 5. Let's take a minimalist view: the 11 task forces we haven't seen consist of one Venator each. Assuming , reasonably, that each Venator Star Destroyer had a full crew then we have at least (11+3+5)*7,400 clone casualties.(As there were no survivors until Koon's little raid; even then there were fewer than a dozen). I'd say the Malevolence claimed at least 140,600 clone troops in crews alone. That's over a tenth of all troops in active duty according to Traviss's 1,200,000 in action figure. That is, unless we're going to assume that the Republic assigned half of its army at that point to patrols and that it was willing to take those losses. Also, it is the no survivors nature and deadliness of the weapon that is of concern to the Republic. If we assume the destroyed VenStars were fully loaded, that means that we have 178,600 casualties. And yet the Republic continued to wage war. RIP "Noble 3 Million"... --4.156.60.48 04:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

60,000 at the Republic medical center...but considering what a bad joke GAR medical care is, that isn't saying much. Besides, it seems to be for high ranking clones only...

I read a book a while back (I believe the second to last? RC book) and it states that Obi-Wan found numerous factories and that the only one he was able to visit said that it produced 900,000 Droids per day (BD's, SBD's, Destroyer Droids, etc..) which would equal out to a MASSIVE 961,200,000 Droids produced by this factory ALONE over the extent of the 3 year war... Now I am positive there were most likely hundred's of thousands to millions (maybe even billions) of factories spread throughout the separatist's thousands of planets so.. lets say the CIS have 100 *Factories* producing at this same extent (I know they have probably hundreds of millions of factories but just using this as a rough example), 961,200,000 * 100=96,120,000,000 Droids produced over the course of 3 years which i highly doubt would be able to be defeated by merely *3 million clones, x amount of poorly trained spaari clones, and a few million support/non-clone personnel* (22 BBY - 19 BBY).. I wish Mr. Lucas would actually clarify it sometime.. though I've been looking over the GAR thread and seem these are the two most promising explanations.. One last solution is to return to the vague term "unit" which Lama Su mentioned. If a "unit" were to be referring to one of the battalions of 576 troopers (seen on Coruscant), then 200,000 of these would render 115,200,000 clones and the 1,000,000 others spoken of as 576,000,000. This grand total of 691,200,000 would make be far more suitable for the core of a galactic army. However, the actual number of clone soldiers which can be seen standing in each formation at the end of Attack of the Clones amounts to 624 (26 per column and 24 per row), showing a disparity with the numbers presented in the Guide to the Grand Army. If a unit indeed amounts to one battalion, this would mean that the grand total of clones was 748,800,000. RC-1 6:47, 15 October 2008 (CST)

Has the idea that the 3 mil figure refers to combat troopers been floated? While it seems abysmally small for a fighting force, if you take out the ship crews & support personel, it'd be much closer. And the GAR had non-clone personel as early as the Battle of Geonosis, as there was a Duros loadmaster after Darman lost his squad. The clones were also often supplimented by local forces as you see on Gaftikar. Astro Droid 04:50, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

I cant remember were, but it said that there were 4 quadrillion droids, and puting everything together, my guess would be around 100 million clones. I mean, the cloning was going on for TEN YEARS! When oyu think about it, the droids had been being made for the past several years as well, and considering the millions, maybe billons of planets, plus space, its a large number, but you have to admit that they commonly say they were spread thin......--Admiral mark 20:24, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Dooku's quote

He says in Ambush they outnumber the Republic a hundred to one. At quintillions of battledroids doesn't that put clone numbers in the quadrillions

• Several tens of quadrillions, yes. Not too shabby, given their guard duties on city planets (where the number of civilians to watch over number in trillions), and doing gunnery and technical duties on capital ships (with the CIS having millions of capital ships, and I think the digest CW comic said the Republic had 1/4 the amount of ships, that would give the Republic at least half a million capital ships, with clones serving in their thousands on each one, giving us billions of clone crews). Excluding those two areas of service, that leaves the army itself, which has to station itself on multiple planetary/moon staging grounds, asteroid installations, fortress worlds, forward bases, etc. And do the actual fighting across a galaxy. With millions of worlds either loyal Republic members or colonies. In the recent plot of the other new CW comic from Dark Horse, the CIS and their slaver allies, move 80 million colonists from planet to planet, unnoticed before the Republic touches down on their former home world. With the amount of logistics needed for that, and with such a lowkey atmosphere around it, that tells us alot about how impressive the scale of each faction is, with this being a small operation on the side of the CIS. VT-16 20:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The galalxy page lists the total population of the Star Wars galaxy at 100 quadrillion sentients, this apparently being taken from Dark Empire sourcebooks. That makes the concept of 1 quintillion battle droids somewhat difficult to grasp, as that would imply 10 battle droids for every sentient in the galaxy. To make some very cheap back of the envelop calculations: if Republic/CIS space encompassed 75% of the galactic populace (leaving space for the Unknown Regions, Wild Space, and autonomous areas such as Hutt Space), and the Republic had a 2:1 population advantage over the CIS (due to having more heavily populated Core Worlds and so forth), and the CIS military included a 10% military population ratio using 90% droids (since we know they had non-droid troops too) that would be...2.25 quadrillion battle droids in a 2.5 quadrillion being military. If they outnumber the Republic 100 to 1 then the Republic would have 25 trillion troops, clones or otherwise. However, it seems dubious that they outnumber the Republic 100 to 1 overall. The nature of Star Wars warfare is that the vast majority of battles will be fleet actions and ground conflict will be very rare, something the movies support. Obviously the Republic was not outnumbered 100 to 1 in space or they'd have been without hope Jedi or no Jedi, the 4 to 1 number you mentioned seems much more possible. That being so, perhaps the CIS simply had a 100 to 1 advantage in ground troops, a tiny fraction of their army, which would bring us back to quadrillions of troops. However, even given that base 100 quadrillion number to work with, the size of all armies can very massively simply by changing the percentages of the military to total populace, allowing you to generate almost any number you want. Mechalich 06:28, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

• • There's a lot of "ifs" in that reasoning. First of all, are you using the population of the Dark Empire period to measure the population before or during the CW? A galaxy-wide war that cost a percentage of the galaxy's civilian population? Even if they were at that level, the number of droids is not impossible, as they were said to be prolific (I think Lucas even mentions them being the equivilant of WMDs that were everywhere). The droids work best in large numbers, simply swamping enemy territory. The movies also show a relative large amount of ground warfare, as opposed to the fleet action in the original trilogy, with tactics such as BDZs said to be used "sparingly" (SOTGSE). VT-16 14:09, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
    • I actually don't think that the 100 quadrillion sentients figure comes from the DE sourcebook, as I was just looking through it to try to find it, and came up with nothing. I'm really not sure where that number comes from. Doluk 22:21, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
      • The new Clone Wars Campaign Guide has an interesting insight that might help solve the numbers disparity. It repeats the 3 million+ number for the GAR, but it strong implies that Clones serving in the Republic Navy are inside a seperate structure. Considering it explicitly states that Coruscant Shock Troopers and other specialists are not considered part of the GAR this seems very likely. The Republic Navy is stated as including several hundred fleets and a 'fleet' is defined as a unit of at least 100 vessels plus support. So, obviously you couldn't control the Republic Navy with 3 million clones. However, by dividing the Navy from the GAR and assuming, as I did above, that ground battles are extremely uncommon, the GAR could be interpretted only as a highly elite 'dedicated ground ops' force, and that might be small enough to consist of only 3 million. this seems to make more sense, especially is shipboard clone troopers are considered 'marines' who report to the Navy and not the army. This new definition method means you can have a 3 million Clone Trooper GAR, but they would be only a very small fraction of the total number of Clones produced, most of whom are considered Republic Navy. This seems to me to make the numbers estimations much more harmonius, but it relegates the GAR to a minor function of the overall Republic Military effort.Mechalich 03:28, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't mean to offend anyone's ideas, especially seeing as I have probably done much less research than anyone else here, but from what I read and watch about the Clone Wars, the vast majority of battles were surface battles. If you flip through the known battles on Wookieepedia, I think you would agree. Some of these battles seem to involve far more troops than seems likely for a ground force of simply 3 million. My best example is probably the Battle of Muunilist, which hinted at numbers so large as to simply disprove the 3 million theory right out, regardless of any logical explanation. I'd use a real sig, but I keep forgetting my account. --75.72.197.45 09:38, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Protection?

Given the controvertial nature of the whole size of the clone army discussion, should this page maybe be semi-protected so that only registered users can edit it? Doluk^Talk 22:13, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

 I myself think that a unit is a block of formation that the clones march in as can be seen at the end of attack of the clones, if so than the number of clones was around 34,480,000,000,000 and if the droids outnumbered them 10 to 1 as is implied simply by the fact that the clones won the war when you observe that one clone private equals 10 battle droids as shown in the battle of Geonosis deployed /casualties ratio of clones and droids, with the assumption that Tyranus was trying to sway the king into joining the c.i.s with fudged numbers (You didn't think a sith would lie to get another planet and inhabitable moon?) in ambush, then the droids nubered around 344,800,000,000,000

Regarding Army numbers

I can't possibly be the only person with military experience reading the numbers of the GAR and feeling that something is not right. We should bear in mind that during World War 2, it is widely accepted that around 100 million men were mobilized to fight. Yes, that includes huge armies like the Chinese and Russians, but if one planet, with 1940's population levels, can arm up 100 million men when needed, then the idea that 3 million men can carry a war on a Galactic scale is difficult to imagine.

We can discuss ad nauseum that a "unit" is shorthand for a "battalion (about 500 to 1,000 guys, depending on it's type and mission) or even if "unit" was Kaminoan shorthand for a "production run" or a batch, lot number, etc. Maybe the first production run was limited to 3 million men, and following batches numbered far greater as the war was expected to expand. Maybe the Kaminoans only had facilities to make 3 million men at a time. But taking Ms. Traviss's number of 3 million, if indeed she openly admits she came up with that for no other reason than as a fit of pique at the number-crunching set, seems to be lazy reasoning at best.

I didn't come here to gripe about Ms. Traviss; I love Star Wars and I've contemplated making an account here for a long time. When I saw the 3-million number, though, my US Army brain said "does not compute", though, so I finally made my account. Would it be logical to say that the first run was 3 million men, created quickly, with follow-on batches being made as the war progressed so that there was no certain way to maintain exact numbers (by the time some of the clones were made, assigned, deployed, and killed they'd hardly had time to be fully registered in the pay system, for example. In Iraq we still got paperwork for guys that had been rotated home months before).

• Well, they weren't created "quickly" but Kamino did keep up production after the war began. FettClone1 19:26, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Gotta agree with you on that, man. I'm willing to accept three million as the INITIAL deployment of clone troopers, with more (lots and lots more) to come later, but if our silly little planet of six billion can field almost SIXTY MILLION troops (active, reserve, paramilitary), then surely the Galactic Republic can field that many. China itself has 2.5 million active troops, with "only" a billion to draw from. 66.110.246.11 15:19, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

It's just a thought but has the term "Grand Army of the Republic" been used outside of episode 2 or Karen traviss' novels cos the closest i can remembr is it being called the army of the republic or clone army. this might be a bit speculative but could the GAR be all the personal battalions under the command of the jedi e.g 212th sky corps or the galactic marines the clone army could be made up of the battalions not led personally by jedi as if the clone wars level of jedi was around 10,000 there would not be large enugh to fight on potentially thousands of panets,so mumbering issues probably need to be addressed with the jedi as well as the clones--Mando'ade1138 13:02, December 16, 2009 (UTC)Mando'ade1138

numbers

The Gar could not have been only three million clones even with non clone personnel. If you look at all the battles fought through the clone wars and consider that there were still clones left over after the war.
All the ideas so far around that number have been good but I have yet another solution to the problem.

Lama Su said a million more well on the way but what does that mean, does it mean they will be ready in a year from then, a month from then or three minutes from then, maybe the Kamino scientists cloned them so that one batch would go out a day after an earlier batch and a day before another batch.(I don't think they did it that fast month would be more likely, but units most likely were more than one clone.)

"Well on the way" also doesn't count the ones not quite "well on the way". Eg, if you consider clones who have completed combat training as "ready" and those in the final stages of training to be "well on the way", would this not mean that the ones just beginning or in the middle of training to not be included in the initial tally? I think it was 2 years into the Clone Wars that Kamino began worrying about current contracts running out. In that time, which is 4 clone-years, a lot of clones could have matured to fighting age. Also don't forget that Kaminoans grew clones in batches, as you see with the Nulls, Alphas, & Commandos. 200,000 could have just been the initial, semi-test batch for the stock clone, after which larger scale production would have commenced. Astro Droid 05:00, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

me

Sorry about the grammar in that last post and just to be clear I did not mean that the kaminoians started and finished training a clone in a day but that they had started each batch one day after the one before it.

You need to sign your changes man, or nobody would be able to tell what your last post was. Astro Droid 09:48, October 28, 2009 (UTC)

Acclamator crew numbers

• There's a paragraph in the numbers section that states the Acclamators were fully crewed by clones, and that that means the crews of those ships spend their entire time in the ships during combat. I was wondering if it would affect that paragraph to point out that there were some clone commanders like Ponds who doubled as field commanders and naval officers. VhettSkirata Mando'ade 22:41, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

Can I have help making this article featured I love the Clones and want to see someone give them gratitude I would love it if it was featured I would appreciate your help,please respond soon it would really be swell. Thank you wookieepeida administrators

GAR became what?

In the history section of this article, they say that the GAR became the Stormtrooper Corps, and then in 2 paragraphs later says that it became the Imperial Army. Which is correct? Taral, Dark Lord of the Sith ^{-Just shy, not antisocial: You can talk to me!-} 18:05, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

• Both are correct, because the Stormtrooper Corps is part of the Imperial Army. Laney97 18:23, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

3000000 Troopers: pro arguments

It seems that almost everybody thinks that 3000000 is a much too small number. But I think there are some hints that it is a fitting number. Here are some pro arguments to think about:

1) The GAR was commanded by Jedi. The number of Jedi was very limited (around 10000). Not all of the Jedi were available as generals. Some Jedi (maybe few) are permanently in the temple, having jobs like librarian etc... There are also a number of Younglings in the Jedi temple. Let's say the rest of the Jedi (those who are outside of the Jedi temple, on missions) is divided in equal numbers of Masters/Knights and Padawans. Only the Master/Knight leads the army. His/her Padawan is only the second-in-command. This leads to a number of less than 5000 Jedi generals. Every Jedi General would then be commander of 600 clones. Sounds like the size of a batallion to me. And it also is a number I think is possible to command in field while actively fighting.

2) Jedi Master Rahm Kota had his own militia, as he didn't trust the clones. As far as I can see when playing The Force Unleashed, this army is not very big. Much smaller than 600. I didn't count the enemies. But I would be surprised if the number is much higher than 100. Why should Rahm Kota command an army much smaller than any other Jedi General?

3) Kamino is just one planet. The surface is covered mostly with water. Is it possible to rise a bigger number than 3000000 clones within 10 years on such a planet? 3000000 is just the active number. If you count losses of e.g. 1/3 of the army in one year, you need 9000000 units in production at all times. So every year you have another million grown up to replace the losses. You actually need a higher number as there will be failures in cloning and losses during training.

4) One argument for a higher number is the high number of habitated planets. I think this argument is too simple. When reading novels or comics from the clone wars, or playing games of that era or watching the cartoon or rendered clone wars series, it seems for me that the GAR doesn't have many garrisons but is rather an army on the move. Compared to the imperial army, which seems to have a lot of garrisons on numerous planets and just one fleet available to search for the Rebel Alliance (TESB). This difference between Clone Army and Imperial Army is the impression I get from the sources. It is also known that the Imperial Army consists of all the clones (at the founding of the Empire/End of the war there should have been a lot of clones still in production, so based on my calculation 3000000 (surviving clones from the clone wars) + 9000000 (new ones) at the time of the Civil War) plus non-clone Stormtroopers. The ratio clones to stormtroopers is said to be 1/3 to 2/3. So the Imperial Army has 36000000 units (12 times bigger than the GAR). But even the Imperial Army doesn't have a garrison on every planet. Of the planets seen in the classic trilogy, most haven't: Alderaan, Hoth, Dagobah, Bespin. Tatooine has none or a small garrison. Endor has a garrison. Coruscant is seen biefly and is likely to have one. That makes 4 to 3. If this is a representative choice of planets, less than half have permanent imperial troops. During the Clone Wars, many of the habited planets also didn't have a GAR garrison as they were separatist planets.

5) The clones may make most of the units in the GAR. But there are also the Jedi, worth many clones in battle. So even a small GAR may be a good opposition to a much bigger Droid Army.

6) The clones aren't normal humans. They have the DNA of the greatest Bounty Hunter of the time. Plus their whole life is a preparation for service in the army or the service itself. Each is worth 100 men or more. The argument of tens of millions of soldiers in WW2 is ridiculous, as these soldiers were mostly people who were taught the basics of fighting (and if lucky, they learned them) and whose DNA is everything but that of born warriors.

7) How could 1% of the Jedi survive Order 66 if each would suddenly be faced by thousands of clone troopers attacking each of them? Jedi are of course good fighters. And I think they can battle a high number of clones easily. But even surviving against 600 clones seems to me hardly possible. See also 6).

I would be happy if anybody has some additional arguments for the 3000000-army. In my eyes, the article already has a lot of arguments for a higher number. And for balancing, to achieve the so-called 'neutral style' for articles, could really need some.--TeakHoken91.33.28.2 02:29, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

We mobilized a lot of people in WW2 that's true. But the Kaminoans could mobilize even more. This is an entire planet dedicated to cloning, and they have all of Star War's Technology. Their productivity is going to be immensly higher, enabling them to turn out Clones in massive numbers. Don't think of the clones as people, think of them as Assualt Rifles with an entire high-tech planet dedicated to their construction. And while the Jedi are worth a lot in battle, they aren't going to be able to stand up to a force of AATs, with intermixed Battle droids, supported by Artillery, and with air-strikes by those Hyena Bombers. Oh, and some Anti-Air and droid fighters if the Jedi bring in their own fighters. 3 Million clone troopers might be all right for an initial batch from Kamino, like the 1 million was. Bit on the small size, but i guess the Kamino people could have had other projects going to. But from the massive population of the Republic...3 million troopers... thats like 1 for every planet, probably less. there would have to be something more...

• The reason why the article appears (to you) to be biased is because the three million number is indefensible. It is an average of three clones per major world or less than one clone per thirty trillion beings. None of your points can make three million appear to be a viable number.

  1) The ratio of clones to Jedi is rarely as high as 600:1. The Battle of Utapau has at least ten thousand ground combat clones to a single Jedi. Kashyyyk boasts of over 66 thousand clones per Jedi, Ryloth over 8 thousand to one, Kamino nine thousand to one, and the Second Battle of Geonosis over 20 thousand to one.

  2) Kota only takes whatever portion of his troops required for the mission at hand. The soldiers seen in the game are not the entirety of his forces. In addition, it has been over a decade and a half since the Clone Wars. His army as of TFU in no way reflects its condition in the Clone Wars.

  3) Kamino, as a water world, is capable of producing more than 600 billion clones a year without any imports at maximum sustainable rate.

  4) Of the planets you list as not being host to an imperial garrison, two are officially uninhabited, one is one of the billions of mining words, and the other has absolutely no evidence of lacking an imperial base. Also, though the GAR is an "army on the move" it, at minimum, most occupy any and all planets that have seceded from the Republic that have been captured.

  5) The Jedi are certainly capable fighters, but even if they were the equal of a million clones apiece they would only bolster the army to a force of under ten billion. Such a force would both render the clones irrelevant and still be unable to wage war on a galactic scale.

  6) While the clones are more capable than most soldiers, they are not the equal to a hundred "normal" soldiers. However, even if they were equal to a million soldiers, they would be outmatched by conscription of a tenth of a percent of the general population.

  7) The Jedi obviously have no need to fight the entirety of their forces, Kenobi was accompanied by at least ten thousand clones, yet he merely had to avoid them long enough to reach transport.

• While any logical argument, based on canonical materials, in favor of the three million numbers may be added to the article, the section remains "biased" in favor of higher numbers because there is no way to make three million clones in a galactic war of over fifty million worlds and one hundred quadrillion beings a rational viewpoint. The Master Bane - ^{Have a nice day.} 20:28, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

Size Debate

Hey just a suggestion to add to the debate section. It's quite possible the 3 million clones could be a number driven and released for propaganda purposes. The clones may not have known the truth either as what's a better drive for you than thinking your outnumbered a thousand to one and you need to win? Palp's has been know for such tactics. Just food for your thought's —Unsigned comment by 74.93.167.109 (talk • contribs)

• Unless there's a source for the idea, there's no reason to put random ideas into the article. -Zekk_Skywalk 09:39, June 23, 2011 (UTC)

The closest I have to a source is the Republic Commando book True Colors where it mentions the driod numbers being possibly fabricated and it also mentions how the Republic troop count must be off as well. That is all I have. —Unsigned comment by 74.93.167.109 (talk • contribs)

Latest reference to the number of clones created (possibly referring to the first wave of 1.2 million):

pages 333-334, Darth Plagueis (by James Luceno) published Jan 2012:

"I believe that the Kaminoans could be induced to grow and train a cloned army."

Sifo-Dyas took a long moment to reply. "You said yourself that the Republic would never sanction an army."

"The Republic needn't know," Damask said cautiously. "Neither would the Jedi Order have to know. It would be an army that might never have to be used, and yet be available in reserve should the need ever arise."

"Who in their right mind would fund an army that would never be used?"

"I would," Damask said. "Along with some of my associates in the Banking Clan - and in conjunction with contacts in Rothana Heavy Engineering, which would supply the ships, armaments, and other material."

Sifo-Dyas fixed him with a look. "Come to the point, Magister."

"The Kaminoans will not create an army for me, but they would do so for the Jedi Order. They have been fascinated by the Jedi for millennia."

Sifo-Dyas's dark brown eyes widened. "You're not proposing cloning Jedi-"

"No. I have been assured that such a thing is impossible, in any case. But I have been assured that a human army a million strong could be ready for deployment in as few as ten years."

"You're suggesting I circumvent the High Council."

"I suppose I am. The Kaminoans need only a modest down payment, which I could provide to you through untraceable accounts I maintain in Outer Rim banks."

Again the Jedi remained silent for a long moment. "I need to consider this."

"Of course you do," Damask said. "And when you've reached a decision, you can contact me at my residence downside."

--109.151.27.42 19:52, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Here is just some logic for everyone: There are some really high numbers for units within the GAR (501st Legion, for example). In history, we see that there are gaps in numbered units which arose over history due to combining units or disbanding other ones. But, it seems unlikely that a army bred and organized within ten years all at once would have een created in a random order. If I was creating an army from stretch, I would start with numeric numberings whenever a larger unit was created. Based on that logic, the 501st Legion could not have existed in an army with only 3,000,000. In the Order of Battle for the GAR, Legions are the same as brigades (both have 9000). If we assume they were numbered together during the organization process, then in order for there to be a 501st Legion there would have had to have been about 4,500,000 clones in the army, as there would have had to have been at least 501 units of 9000 clones. The 327th Star Corps would imply that there were at least 12,000,500 clone troopers. This is all purely logic-based speculation, but it is worth considering. Admiral James Kaizer (talk) 18:41, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

Basic Math

The numbers for units in the order of battle is clearly off. When you add a leader to a group, you have to factor in that addition. The number for the Squad is correct: 8 troopers and 1 sergeant makes 9. After that, the numbers are all wrong. For a Platoon, there are 4 Squads and 1 lieutenant, which makes 37, not 36. Here's the math that I did for the rest. Note that I did not include Jedi in any of the calculations.

Squad: 8 + 1 = 9 Platoon: 4 x 9 + 1 = 37 Company: 4 x 37 + 1 = 149 Battalion: 4 x 149 + 1 = 597 Regiment: 4 x 597 = 2,389 Legion: 4 x 2,389 + 1 = 9,557 Corps: 4 x 9,557 + 1 = 38,229 Sector Army: 4 x 38,229 = 152,916 Systems Army: 2 x 152,916 = 305,852 Grand Army: 10 x 305,852 = 3,058,520 188.74.117.169 01:48, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

• The numbers are taken directly from an Insider article (Guide to the Grand Army of the Republic, IIRC) that does not include command or support personnel. As the the article strives to give information on the in-universe ORBAT; rather than what it "should be," the numbers given are fine. --The Master Bane - ^{The Death Star - useful weapon for destroying shielded planets or just overcompensation?} 00:26, October 24, 2011 (UTC)

Vehicles

Did this page used to have a section on the vehicals used by the GAR? Could we add it back, as every other army page has a similar section, and it was very useful. —Unsigned comment by Admiral James Kaizer (talk • contribs)

• Wookieepedia does not do lists, but if you check the Galactic Republic vehicles category all the vehicles used would be there. Trip391 (talk) 17:38, December 20, 2013 (UTC)

It did, and I hope they will. I don't know why it was removed(along with, notably, the similar section in the Seperatist Droid Army), but it was extremely useful. If I hadn't partially memorized it before it disappeared, there would be several pages I would have never visited, or been able to go back to. Looking for something under a category is painstakingly hard, and, having just went to that particular category, way too large to find what you're looking for, especially as the category includes specific examples as well as a multitude of vehicles not used by the GAR specifically. --23.115.50.0 11:03, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

• • Many other military pages have "lists." The Reoublic, Imperial, CIS, Rebel navies, for instance... As well as the Alliance Navy (and probably many others)

Non-clone soldiers?

Were there any non-clone volunteers other than the Freedom's Sons and Kota's Militia? If so, what would they look like? Would they just wear normal clone armor or something different, like what Kota's Militia wears? DarthNicky (talk) 16:43, October 2, 2016 (UTC)

The Units Mystery solved

Solving the Units Mystery....

I want to settle the “units” controversy. For those of you who do not know what this is, Lama Su during Episode II tells Obi Wan Kenobi that there are 200,000 “Units” combat ready with a million more “well on the way”. However the word “units” is never clarified. If you look at the unit distribution there is also a major discrepancy in the unit numbers and the amount of units available based on currently accepted figures for unit sizes. Simply put, the current outlook on the G.A.R. numbering only 3,000,000 troopers by wars end is unreasonable to defend an entire galaxy.

So, using some information, and logic let's go through deriving an initial number. We can assume that unit numbers up to regiments are current as currently accepted. There is both enough source material, and applicability, to make these numbers reasonable. Now, we also know that the 327th “Sky” Corp existed, thus giving us a minimum for the number of existing Corps (If you've ever been in the military you can agree with me when I say, unit numbers are not assigned randomly, they are deliberate and practical. It is therefore, reasonable to conclude that if there is a 327th corp then there came 326 corps before them.) Well, using the currently accepted troop counts there are only ~80 corps (4 corps per sector army, 2 sector armies per system army, and 10 systems armies). Far less than the number we can assume by practicality, thus we must figure out what the real number must be. To accomplish this we know we need a minimum of 1308 legions, which also does not fit into the Sector/Systems/Grand army structure. I'm going to cut out the nitty gritty math details, but once you account for the small size of the standard legions, fix the numbers for the corps and legions that are “knowns”, you end up with the following structure set up which is much more believable.

Grand Army of the Republic- 5 Grand Armies, a total of 235,929,600 trooper units (not including supporting units) organized into 400 corps and 1,600 Legions. (This is where there could be some discrepancy in command between the Chancellor and the Senate from which the senate can cede to the Chancellor more war-time emergency power- which fits with the understood history of the war.)

Grand Army—10 systems armies, a total 47,185,920 units, with Supreme Chancellor Palpatine as Commander-in-Chief.The number 3,000,000 was Sifo-Dyas' initial order, as the number of total clones increased during the war.

Systems Army—2 Sector Armies (4,718,592 units) led by a High Jedi General.

Sector Army—4 corps (2,359,296 units) led by a Senior Jedi General

Corps 4 legions (589 824 units) led by a Senior Jedi General. (There were at least 327 corps in the G.A.R.)

Legion 4 Divisions (147,456 units) led by a clone general commander and a Jedi General (There were at least 1308 legions in the G.A.R.)

Division—4 Brigades (36,864 units) led by a marshal commander (“Lieutenant General”) and a Jedi General.

Brigade—4 regiments (9,216 units) led by a senior commander (“Brigadier General”) and a Jedi General.

Regiment—4 battalions (2,304 units) led by a regimental commander (“Colonel”) and a Jedi Commander.

Battalion—4 companies (576 units) led by a battalion commander and major.

Company—4 platoons (144 units) led by a captain.

Platoon—4 squads (36 units) led by a lieutenant, second lieutenant, and sergeant-major.

Squad—9 trooper units led by a sergeant and corporal.

Quick point, the inflated legion size works better for ORBATs, you get a set up like this: Legion = 147,456 1308 Legions in the minimum Organized into at least 327 Corps Totaling at least 192,872,448 troopers

After you start from the bottom and work your way up (since we know the smaller trooper/unit sizes more accurately) you get a final number for max capacity at 235,929,600, which using the legion size shifted set up is a satisfactory number as we need a minimum of 192,872,448 troopers. With this number all of our ORBAT's and unit sizes and things fall neatly into perfect distributions.

Now, let's take this new estimation and see how it fits in with Lama Su's “units”. Lama Su tells Obiwan Kenobi there are 200,000 “Units” combat ready with a million more “well on the way”. If you take the 235,929,600 trooper units estimation from earlier and divide it by this 1,200,000 figure given by Lama Su, you get 196.608. Which ironically, is about how many troopers you can expect to serve in a company of soldiers, plus their supporting personnel. Thus I believe Lama Su was referring to production units instead of individual troopers- as the Kaminoins were business professionals first- and a company would make for a pretty good figure to use in army production units.

This is how divisions being the main combat deployment unit is determined. It's cyclic logic here.

1 Venator + 2 Acclaim Per Division

1 Venator + 2 Acclaim could move ~ 1 Division of men to combat.

2,00+16,000+16,000= ~34,000

Each legion would be assigned 4 Venators and 8 Acclaim's.

This means that the following must also be true:

Total Minimum Venator Count at wars end= 5232 (Not accounting for replacing losses)

Total Minimum Acclaim Count at Wars End= 10,464 (Not accounting for replacing losses)

As of 1000BBY (Ruusan Reformation) there were at least an estimated 50,000,000 inhabited systems in the Republic.

We know this because the original Senate was composed on the basis of 1000 Senators, who would later rule over regions of ~50 inhabited worlds, that were reorganized during the reformation into Sectors lead by Senate delegations.

All of this taken into consideration, using the 50,000,000 number derived from the Reformation, if every legion were deployed at base combat strength (1 Division or 36,864 combat troopers) the Grand Army of the Republic could fight in 6400 systems at any given time. Or ~.0128% of the possible galactic conflict zones. This is a reasonable number, and a fairly accurate representation of the wartime tactics used in both Star Wars and real life with large amounts of combat taking place in only a relatively few or small number of places.

This shows not only that the G.A.R. Is larger than was originally estimated, but also stretched just as thin as seen in the trilogy.

Sincerely, M.H.

Ranking Question

This is probably a stupid question but looking through the ranks they talk about the ranks of the clones being determined by a HUD. What is it and where can it be found?--TheBatman121 (talk) 04:51, April 29, 2017 (UTC)