Talk: Form IV/Legends/Archive1

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Title

"Form IV: Ataru" seems redundant. Perhaps move this to "Ataru" and include that the two names are interchangeable in the lead. --SparqMan 03:32, 24 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Alema Rar

During one of the duels with Leia in Fury, (pg. 237) it describes her attack as a "savage attack, all fourth-form technique without the added elements of acrobatics." Sounds like Ataru to me. Think we should add her to the notable users list? JethLordMaster (Talk) 16:43, 13 December 2007 (UTC-8)

  • She's already on the notable user list. Din's Fire 997 06:56, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Obi-Wan with Ataru vs. Anakin

I noticed that one of you - probably without any background knowledge - deleted the line which said Kenobi had switched back to Ataru in his final duel against Anakin. I doubt it, too, but I think that deleting without any evidence is unfair. We should have at least discussed it. Before you all pounce on me, let me tell you that it is not me who gave that line in and protest because MY line was deleted. You can make a search if you do not believe me, but you would only waste some hours whihc could be spent doing something more valuable from your life.

I have only seen Episode III once, but I remember that Obi-Wan used the Force in that duel much, compared to how much he uses the Force usually. But this does not mean he switched back to Ataru. It seemed to me he was on the defence until he found the higher ground. I read the novelization twice but do not remember if it is mentioned there that Ataru was used, but I did not find anything to prove it is not true (for example the novelization does not directly state that Obi-Wan used Soresu.
This is my opinion on the matter. I do not revert edit, because

  • a) I also disagree with it -> It is illogical that you face an opponent that is more powerful than you are (in theory) and you use a combat style you have not practiced for a decade.
  • b) I do not have any source which clearly states that Obi-Wan used Ataru
  • c) It is better to have an article which mentions nothing than one which mentions something unproven and thus disputable.

TopAce, 15:31, 27 Oct 2005, (GMT +1)

  • TopAce, Obi-Wan still practiced Ataru! EP3 Visual Dictionary had said so, and EP3 Novel has Obi-Wan using Ataru to face Dooku! Plus Obi-Wan could possibly applied Sokan to cripple Vader in the last minute. And although Obi-Wan is The Master of Soresu, he could & should apply Ataru if the situation requires it - Vader's mastery of Djem So was the best, but he still applied Shien on Mustafar, which was confirmed by the novel. Darth Kevinmhk 16:31, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Obi Wan uses a variant of Ataru called Sokan in that duel.

Last paragraph

Count Dooku stated that he understood "every weakness of the Ataru form, with its ridiculous acrobatics". Dooku's Makashi would counter Ataru by launching a series of flashing thrusts toward the enemy's legs to draw the opponent into a flipping overhead leap, so that Dooku could burn through the enemy's spine from kidneys to shoulder blades with his Makashi attack. The Count applied this tactic against Obi-Wan Kenobi onboard Invisible Hand, who blocked Dooku's blows with Soresu.

Do you think it is necessary to note? I think it would be more appropriate in either the Makashi or the Soresu article. - TopAce 11:23, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

  • I agree. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:27, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
    • My opinion is keeping the paragraph here. The paragraph focus on the so-called weakness of Ataru and how it can be countered. Soresu does not appear much in the paragraph, and the Makashi article is already focus on comparing Makashi and Djem So, so I suggest Makashi & Ataru comparison can be placed here. Darth Kevinmhk 04:00, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
  • i agree

Behind the Scenes: Cin Drallig?

From the description of both Ataru and other forms, it doesn't seem to me that Cin Drallig (in the game, you can actually tell) uses Ataru. I'd think that Serra Keto does, because she's very acrobatic, but Cin Drallig doesn't really display an acrobatic techniques. It seems to me that he's using Juyo, because he's using staccato movements, but they're not dark like Vaapad. I think that the comment should be removed since it's speculation and seems unlikely. --Swali 23:04, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

  • While I agree it should be removed, it's a game. They probably really didn't give much thought to the forms of lightsaber combat. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
    • I once read it - here - that Cin Drallig was a Makashi user. What has become of that line? He was known to be a good swordsman, one who taught a lot of Padawans how to wield a saber effectively. I don't think Ataru is an ideal choice for that. - TopAce 17:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Serra Keto uses Juyo and yes Cin does use Juyo as well but he also uses Ataru due to the fact that he is a Master of Niman which uses techniques from Forms 1 through 6.

And yes, he uses Makashi, next time you play the RotS game, hit the fast attack button once, and then hit the same button for Dooku, their attack's are identical. I'll remind the idiots out there that before they react stupidly to what I just said, remember Niman contains techniques from Makashi as well. --The truth hurts... 19:39, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

    • Serra doesn't use Juyo, she use Jar'Kai. And in ROTS (movie) Cin Drallig used Niman, and the movies trump all in terms of canon value. User:AHS0KA

Palpatine using Ataru?

What's the source on Palpatine using Ataru? Furthermore, why--then--is there a conflict with the Djem So article that seems to say, for some reason, that Palpatine and Windu used Djem So in their duel? I'm more concerned about the sources--really--because I hope it's not visual intrepretation, which isn't valid for evidence. Even if it was, I would dispute that he uses Ataru anyway: his moves are far to abrupt and serpentine. --GrandAdmiralJello 20:48, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Well, Windu used Vaapad in the duel, not Djem So, so that's one wrong thing. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:48, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Hideously wrong, yes. So it really raises the question: are people simply guessing what forms are being used by visuals? Let's hope not. --GrandAdmiralJello 05:31, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
      • Palpatine used a mix of various forms... I remember reading it in the RotS novelization. I don't have it on me right now, though.. --Danik Kreldin 05:33, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
  • I'll take you word for it. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:35, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
    • In the novelization, it describes Palpatine using Ataru - he's extremely agile, almost a blur, moving all around. Which is pretty much Ataru. Then I read somewhere he mixed some Juyo/Vaapad into it, though that may have just been on Wookieepedia. --Danik Kreldin 20:40, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
      • Thank you for confirming the Ataru part. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:52, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
        • Just wanna point out that no solid word was ever said about Sidious' actually style. Star Wars fans just observe and think it out - They observe Sidious' style in the Senate looks quite like Yoda, and the novel described Sidious moving like a blur. Fans thought Sidious used Form VII because he is Maul's master, and he applied some concept of Form VII during the lightning struggle with Mace. However, I wanna point out that Insider 62 said Form VII itself applied "very advanced Force-assisted jumps and movements", so it is possible that Sidious blur effect was from Form VII, not Form IV. Darth Kevinmhk 16:25, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
          • Well, Danik Kreldin said that Palpatine used a mix of forms, anyway. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
            • Nope, the novel didnt mention that, I'm sure. It looked like what Nick Gillard described in an interview... I will quote a source later to continue the discussion. Darth Kevinmhk 04:15, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
              • Thank you. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 13:13, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
                • Darth Kevinmhk 10:54, 27 March 2006 (UTC) Got it. From theforce.net -> EP3 -> Just the Facts -> Palpatine section. But I doubt he was actually refering to the seven forms, because the crew does not consider c-canon when designing stage fighting. Anyway, Nick Gillard said these:
                  • Pertaining to whether Sidious is right-handed or left-handed with a lightsaber, he's ambidextrous. He's just that good.
                  • Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced.
                  • It took a really long time for Nick (Gillard) to work out Sidious' fighting style, and he has a style that's constantly changing. His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him.
                  • Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style.
                    • Still, "every style" could still mean all of the seven forms. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:36, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
                      • So we should put Palpatine's name in all 7 articles? Darth Kevinmhk 02:31, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
                      • When being asked whether Mace used Vaapad in EP3, Rick said "No, he did what Nick taught him."; Nick's Level 1-10 system is completely different from the already existed seven forms.. so i consider the crew doesnt care the setting of 7forms. Darth Kevinmhk 14:30, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
                        • Responding to your question: It's worth a small mention, I suppose. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know for sure if the Lighsaber Guide of the Dark Jedi Brotherhood [1] is a canonical source or not. In that the writer(s)' theory is that Palpatine's style could be the long-forgotten style known as Lus-ma. He does not state it firmly, it is written that they are 'searching for evidence and more details.' One thing is stated though: that Palpatine's style was extremely demanding. Even this particular article says that he combined stabs and thrust into his attacks, so it was not a 'clear' Ataru. Of course we don't even know for sure what the 'clear' Ataru was like, although the pdf document gives a detailed list of manouvres and movements for each style, and in Ataru's list there's clearly no stabbing. If the source is not canon, then cancel this last sentence (it's likely because the movements are definitely listed for the players of the role-playing community which has created the guide). Anyway, I like the idea of Palpatine using a style that was forgotten - or erased from lightsaber training - by the Jedi, because it would definitely give him advantage should he get into a situation where he has to defend himself with lightsaber. I rather disagree with Palpatine using Form VII, because in my opinion it was unlikely that he could devote himself to the intensive training required by this form, nor the mentioned state of mind (see article about Form VII), because he was known as a cool-headed and counting person, looking to exploit others' weaknesses, not giving himself entirely over to the heat of combat. A surprising and unusual style I think would better suit him. (This is only personal opinion). --Domlith 22:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

  • That's not canon. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 00:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I must admit that the guide looks good, but it is non canon. Darth Kevinmhk 03:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Big difference between looking good and being good. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 11:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
        • yer agreed, it looks nice but i read the first few lines and already its wrong, "Form II is a easy form to learn" erm, since when| anyway back on topic did Palps use Ataru then? whats decided? Jedi Dude
          • In very, very strick sense, there is no line in any source which directly state that Palpatine used Ataru. (And, in the same sense, no source stating he used Form VII too) Darth Kevinmhk 11:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
            • However, if he happened to use moves common to a certain form in the film, it would be canon, as long as we could distinguish the moves and what form they belong to. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 19:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I got conflicting views about this myself. Base on the novelization, i guess that his form is more in keeping with the principles of Form IV. But the scenes in the movie suggests that Form VII may be used instead of Form IV. His lightsaber fight scenes are pretty erratic & do not have the flow that's usually associated with Form IV (like Yoda). However, this could be due impractical application of Form IV in reality. The main problem about lightsaber scenes in movies is that not all of them corresponds to the description in official sources, thus making it difficult to guess the Form, especially Forms IV and VII -naz-

Image

  • Is it just me, or does the second third image not display very well? I can't see a thing. Perhaps if we zoomed in on it? Atarumaster88 20px (Audience Chamber) 03:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
    • Which one? The second one seems to be Yoda on a saber thrown clone? That looks good to me. The Yoda vs Sidious one may really zoom too far away, though. Darth Kevinmhk 14:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Needs Quote

  • Is there a good quote for this? Maybe Yoda as a whirlwind of destruction, or whatever they say in KotOR II? Same for the other forms that don't have quotes. Atarumaster88 20px (Audience Chamber) 03:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Greatest Practioners

These lists are crap and need to go! No canon source for any claims. They are fanon and will be deleted.

  • I partially reverted your changes- I agree that the term "greatest" is speculation, aside from Yoda. However, I think having a list of notable practitioners is a good idea, so I have modified the lists to reflect that. Also, thank you for removing that ilk about Obi-Wan's knowledge of Ataru. Atarumaster88 20px (Audience Chamber) 23:32, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Actually Sidious would be the best but he sees to be very disieving in his form, leads you into a trap, and then defeats you.
    • Unfortunately, we do not have exact canonical proof of what form Sidious uses. We have reasonable certainty that he used Ataru based on his motion, but he could have been incorporating other forms- we just don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt. Atarumaster88 20px (Audience Chamber) 02:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I concur with Atarumaster88, Sidious' form is hard to determine. I've contributed my opinion in this matter under section no. 4. -naz-

Semi-Protection

Featured article status

Now, I'm not questioning why this article was nominated, but I am curious as to why none of the articles for other forms were. I don't really see what the differences are. Jwebb13HoloNet40px 02:49, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Uh, because for some strange reason, I care more about this form than the others. And that meant that I restructured the article- you'll note that the other articles aren't structured this way. I re-formatted the images, removed speculation, made the intro longer, started sourcing it, and added quotes. If you want to do the same thing to the others, that's fine with me. Atarumaster88 20px (Audience Chamber) 04:04, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Okay, an informed second look cleared things up. Now I just have to get my ass in gear for Form V. Jwebb13HoloNet40px 04:53, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I removed the last bit of speculation, so its ready to be featured! -Derek Yoda's friend 23:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Do you really think in the Practicioners article there should be two things for Anakin and Darth Vader, just asking. Derek Yoda's friend 04:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Not in the gallery, but in the main body, there should be, because they had two completely different styles. Atarumaster88 20px (Audience Chamber) 04:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Gallery

  • Simple. Vote to get rid of or keep the gallery of users. I'd like to point out that the Users section makes it totally unnecessary- every user is detailed there.

Keep gallery

  1. JMAS 03:12, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  2. Darth Vatrir 17:34, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  3. Vryce 06:01, 6 April 2007 (UTC) (though I'm in favor of a middle ground of an accompanying gallery of a handful of notable practitioners to accompany the users section)

Remove gallery

  1. Atarumaster88 20px (Audience Chamber) 21:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
  2. ATATatarismall.png 21:57, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
  3. Son of NilsTalk 01:44, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Comments

  • I would have to agree with Vryce and say we should go for the middle ground. I think we should do the same on Form V as well. Darth Vatrir 20:27, April 26 2007 (UTC)

Restarted Gallery Dispute

Regarding the gallery, I don't see why we can't have both the user section and the gallery. All the other lightsaber combat articles (minus Form VII) have both, I see no reason why Form IV need be any different. Darth Vatrir

  • There was a "Remove FA status for article discussion" in one of the Inquisitorius meetings and the gallery was listed as something that needed to go. Therefore I removed it. Atarumaster88 20px (Talk page) 22:42, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Oh, all right then, I don't have the slightest idea why because it destroys consistency with the other lightsaber combat articles. Darth Vatrir

Ummm...what?

  • The following statement

The New Jedi Order would later learn of this form, along with the others, from knowledge gleaned from holocrons and recordings, particularly the Great Holocron which included a recording by Cin Drallig explaining lightsaber forms. Alema Rar, among others, was trained in the use of the fourth form of lightsaber combat.

That would indicate that the NJO was aware of and, subsequentally, trained Padawans in the 7 classic forms of Lightsaber combat. Also, Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, in no way, indicates, suggests, or hints that the discovery of the Great Holocron was the first time they stumbled across the seven forms of lightsaber combat. Also to assume that neither Obi Wan or Yoda would not have told Luke, who had a lightsaber, how to use it and wield it is just ludicrous. You don't leave a journal on how to build a lightsaber and not tell the person reading it how to use it and training that would improve upon the novice's skill. Couple that with the fact that the spirit of Obi Wan was instructing Luke in saber combat, it is extremely unlikely that one of the most important teachings of the Jedi Order, and proper training in how to use the weapon of a Jedi, would slip the minds of two of the greatest lightsaber duelists of all time. DarthMalus 14:48, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

  • First of all, the entire statement is sourced. Otherwise, I wouldn't have added it in. Second, if you read the statement, I never said that the Great Holocron was the first time they had stumbled across the seven forms. I said it was a source of particular value. I never said that they didn't have knowledge of lightsaber combat prior- you are taking the statement out of context and blowing it out of proportion. If you look, the fast style is alluded to in this article's BTS. Furthermore, Fury states that Alema Rar knew Ataru. So quit changing the article. Atarumaster88 20px (Talk page) 02:17, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Is it just me.....

I don't think I'm the only one who thinks this but isn't Ataru depicted as an inadequete form? It is lowsy against blaster, and many opponets. This article needs to give more credit to the form.Tom,SoresuMaster88 23:24, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

  • Please learn to spell/use spellcheck and then go read WP:NPOV. Furthermore, all information in this article is canon. Atarumaster88 20px (Talk page) 01:50, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Atarumaster i'm new here.Tom,SoresuMaster88 18:43, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I think that any form, if mastered properly, can overcome its weaknesses. For example; an Ataru master may have a harder time deflecting blasters (though Yoda had no trouble), but given the form's preferrence for evasion it is likely that a master could simply dodge the projectiles and would therefore only need to deflect those that could not be avoided. As for multiple opponents; every form suffers from overwhelming force, but an Ataru master could, in theory, use his/her manouevrability to defeat each opponent systematically (like Beatrix Kiddo did in Kill Bill). So, with this in mind, the only real weaknesses of Ataru are confined spaces and fatigue, but the latter only poses a problem if the Ataru user cannot defeat his/her opponent in short order, which is what Ataru excels at. As for confined spaces; it is likely that a practitioner would seek better circumstances, a sort of "flight to fight" tactic. Darth Raivon 12:46, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

  • Please read the bit at the top of the page, where it says that talk pages are for discussion of the article, not the topic of the article. Thank you and have a Wookiee-tastic day. Atarumaster88 20px (Talk page) 18:27, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Episode 2 Visual Dictionary Error?

  • It says Anakin chose form IV for it's power. Is it accepted that this is an error since it's later canonized that power is linked with form V. Should this error be put in a BTS?--Black Jack Scarron 05:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
    • Yes, it should. I'll check the Visual Dictionary and add it. Atarumaster88 20px (Talk page) 14:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
    • It's not an error... The Star Wars Insider "fightsaber" article says that Anakin used Ataru against Dooku when they fought on Geonosis (a fact which is also stated in the "practitioners" section of this very article). So Anakin studied Ataru at some point, and used it in battle sometimes (like against Dooku), while also studying and using Form V as well. There is no error or contradiction. 96.233.177.173 15:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
      • Form IV is not generally considered a "power" form, though. Atarumaster88 20px (Talk page) 15:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
        • You sure about that? It is nicknamed "The Aggression Form", after all. Either way, the visual dictionary doesn't really go into any detail about it, and we already know he studied Ataru at some point (per Fightsaber), so I don't see any error or contradiction about the visual dictionary saying he studied Form IV. 96.233.177.173 16:12, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
          • Indeed, "Fightsaber" described Form IV as using the circular motions to build momentum for strikes. Graestan(Talk) 16:18, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
            • Hmm. If it's the SW.com fightsaber and not the original Insider edition, I'll need to take a look, because they seem to have changed some things. Atarumaster88 20px (Talk page) 18:22, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
  • In Ep. 2 Anakin uses form 4 for about yeah, for about 4 seconds. For the whole movie he uses form 5 and the visual dictionary should say so. But it doesn't so it should be noted. Ataru yes is known for aggression and acrobatics. Not power. The visual dictionary was the first source to mention saber forms, the fightsaber article explored it deeper. Does anybody really have a problem with it being in the bts? --Black Jack Scarron 23:26, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

5.3 Factual correction

The article claims that in Revenge of the Sith, Obi-Wan uses begins by using Ataru against Count Dooku, when he's clearly using Form 1 (with the plan of switching later to surprise/trick Dooku).

  • A quote from the actual novel is: "Obi-Wan lifted his lightsaber into the balanced two-handed guard of Ataro: Qui-Gon's style, and Yoda's. His blade crackled into existence, and

the air smelled of lightning. "You won't escape us this time, Dooku."". Obi-Wan uses Ataru. Atarumaster88 20px (Talk page) 02:31, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

    • Kenobi's manouvers were simple, like form 1. Ataru's moves are fast and complicated. In the ROTS Visual Dictionary it also states that he started using "basic lightsaber techniques" (sounds like Shii-Cho to me). User:AHS0KA
      • What source are you basing that off of? I've given a canonical source for Kenobi's use of Ataru against Dooku; it's pretty much set in stone. Atarumaster88 20px (Talk page) 16:32, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
        • Canon value? Come on, Film vs Novel. What's more, all Jedi know Shii-Cho, and Kenobi hadn't used Ataru in well over a decade. The style he was employing wasn't at all acrobatic, which is contrary to Ataru. User:AHS0KA
          • In the film, at the start of the fight Kenobi and Skywalker appeared to be using the same form, and while Kenobi knew Ataru well (although he hadn't practiced it in over a decade), Skywalker only briefly dabbled in Ataru, so I can see no reason why he'd risk using a style he wasn't that farmilia with against someone as skilled as Dooku. They both however would have known Shii-Cho quite well (they were both Jedi after all). And let's not forget the Visual Dictionary calling it "Basic lightsaber techniques" which doesn't sound like Ataru (it does sound like Form 1 though). User:AHS0KA
            • I see basic lightsaber techniques as simply less complicated moves, not neccessarily less complicated forms. They're two different things. Your novel vs. film thing is not right either. Atarumaster88 has provided a canonical statement, whereas you are just taking a guess from looking at the movie. In this respect, a novel will always be considered more correct. Just because Shada D'ukal and Karoly D'ulin look like the Tonnika sisters in the movie doesn't mean that they are. One cannot continue to assume they are once a canon statement has been presented. SoresuMakashi(Everything I tell you is a lie) 07:28, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
              • In that case, how do we know Jar Jar was wearing clothes in TPM? The novel never says "Jar Jar was wearing clothes", therefore when we assume he was wearing clothes we are basing that on fan-analysis. And if the novel of AOTC said that (and I know it didn't say this, but I'm just giving an example) said that Mace Windu had a green lightsaber, when we all know he has a purple one? And how do we know he has a purple one? Fan-analysis. And the novels have different dialogue to the movies, so how do we deal with that? Therefore lots of what we accept as canon is based on fan-analysis. User:AHS0KA
  • Once again, I've given you canon as my basis. There's nothing concrete in the film that disputes what the novel describes, other than fan-analysis, which we don't accept on Wookieepedia, especially in cases like this. As I've said on numerous occasions during my patrolling of saber form articles, any and all fan-analysis will be removed on sight and the author of said fan-analysis blocked for adding fanon. I'm sorry to disappoint, but further posting on this topic is absolutely pointless. Atarumaster88 20px (Talk page) 08:58, 1 January 2009 (UTC)