Talk: Darth Revan's Sith Empire

Money

I find it weird that they used Republic Credits. I figured that they would use a new form of currency, like when changed them from Republic to Imperial Dataries. (example: Sith Credits, Sith Dataries)

• Could be that they didn't have any metals to back them up. User:SFH
  • Well, Revan was intending on supplanting the Republic after all - and it's easier that starting a new currency ground up. (195.92.168.176 08:14, 26 January 2006 (UTC))

Revan's Sith Empire

• Should this perhaps be moved to Darth Revan's Sith Empire or (less likely) Malak's Sith Empire? MarcK 00:00, 7 Sep 2005 (UTC)
• I think it should be Revan's. After all he was the founder, and without him influencing Malak, then Malak would have either died during or remained a jedi after the Mandalorian Wars. Jedi Wolf 5:00, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Bloody Conquest

Just a quick note: I made sure to mention that Revan's conquest - while tactically superior to Malak's and focused on the supplantation of the Republic- was still categorised as "bloody". Carth Onasi specifically says that Malak "resumed the bloody conquest of the outer worlds" - resumed being key. Revan had subtle tactics - the execution of said tactics was unlikely to be so. (195.92.168.176 08:14, 26 January 2006 (UTC))

Neo-Sith Empire

Does anyone think that this should be entitled the "Neo-Sith Empire", as a better means of distinguishing it from the Sith Empire of the ancient past. Having (Jedi Civil War) written after it just seems so clunky. Just an idea to throw out there.

Edit- Scratch that, I just saw that the Brotherhood of Darkness' Empire is referred to as the "New Sith Empire"... even so, I think we need a less 'clunky' title for Revan and Malak's... --(195.92.168.176 08:14, 26 January 2006 (UTC))

• I see your point, but by using this name we avoid creating a conjectural title. --Imp 08:47, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Besides the old sith empire still exists at this point--99.141.205.69 11:48, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Rewrite

• While the recent re-writes are well done and expand the article, don't they defocus it a little? Right now this page reads less like an article about the Sith Empire and more like one about the Jedi Civil War as a whole. --Fade 11:08, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Ya, I see what you mean. I got a tad carried away with the History section. I think this article is now more complete and accurate than the actual Jedi Civil War article... Darn. We might want to condense it down and merge the excess into that article.--Sentry 11:32, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Done, now I can condense this article down...--Sentry 12:39, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Dantooine and Dxun?

How so? Dantooine was always a Jedi world, while Dxun was inhabited by the Mandalorians who resettled on it, as well as the gathering sith around Freedon Nadd's tomb. - Sikon [Talk] 16:28, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

• The Dantooinians were conquered by the Sith in KOTOR. In the second game the people you talk to there mention what life was like under Sith rule. Kuralyov 16:30, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

yes but if you didn't listen to mical, oderon wasn't bothered by revan and besides, the people were probley talking about uh i don't know, freedon nadd's royal family? 72.230.40.84 18:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Erm, how about no. Dantooine was conquered by the Sith after the Jedi Enclave on the planet was destroyed. ANd please don't restart dead topics. Jasca Ducato 08:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

De facto

Why is Revan stated as the de facto leader, I thought he was the Dark Lord of the Sith? Jedi Wolf 6:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• He was DLOS, but that also made him the de facto leader, since he founded the empire. Jasca Ducato _{Sith Council} ^{(Sith Campaign)} 09:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Sith Empire - Galactic Empire parallels

• I think we should add some 'behind the scenes' or 'trivia' section, and point out the similarities between Revan&Malak's empire and Palpatine's one. There are some striking ones e. g. the uniforms of officers (not exactly, but resembling) and human dominance in the ranks of army and navy (though there are other species, but not many, most of them are apprentices or 'hopefuls' on Korriban), the common soldier's resemblance of storm troopers etc. Literally, one can say that Palpatine created the same, but from inside out: he did not conquer the Republic with external forces, but transformed it into a 'Sith Empire' from the inside. He needed a war, the decay of political system, and many other factors of course, but he was undeniably the more succesful: he carried out this 'transformation' amidst the 'thundering applause' of the Senate, and managed to (almost) completely eradicate the Jedi Order at the same time. Guess I am going off-topic already... Nevertheless I would still open a section for these similarities... Domlith 20:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

• I don't know, that sounds like Original Research to me.--Sentry 22:24, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Al-Quida Evolution paralle

• When the Mandolrains attacked the outlying systems it may of mirred the Soviet Union totalataryism on eastern Europe in which booth otward athorite were oblivious. When the Mandolorians attacked the Republic they retaliated just like the western world during the Communist raging.

• When the Jedi went to war against the concles wishes it may mimic Al-Quida's defence against the Sovient Union's invasion of Central Asia in which they protected Afganistan with Pakistan prevented from been next.

• With the Sovient Union's colapse in 1991 45% of the Al-Quida milatary was under Binlarden's direct command, just a a thired of the Republic fleet was under Revan's direct command at the end of the Mandolorian Wars.

• After the war Revan mysterisy turned to the dark side and Malak graduily accepted the role of apprentice. Just as Abu did with Binlarden and ultemently both groups were corupted in simular ways. Tilio Governor 7:14 P.M 2ed of June 2008

I see Empires of blue!

what/where did the blue symbol of the sith empire come from. If its actually canon and from a comic then i'm just sad, that does not look very evil. Steves490 21:40, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree, the infobox should be changed to match the other Sith Empires. --Senjuto 01:15, December 19, 2011 (UTC)

Sith Lords

There are sith apprentices on Lehon in KOTOR and sith masters on Korriban, Manaan and Lehon as well. Are these more sith lords (as per the Wizards of the Coast Campaign Guide), or are the force-users other than Revan and Malak just called Dark Jedi? User:1705jallen

Discussion of Revan's motivations

Okay, Dawidos. Let's discuss.

• I entirely see your point about KOTOR2 and Timeline 8, disregarding whatever you mean by "cravings". However, I'd like to point out something: those two sources are in-universe interpretations of what happened, and they are made/interpreted/stated without complete knowledge of the actual events. See the talk page of Timeline 8 for further information. See, Gnost-Dural was basing his timelines of what he knew, not all of the info. Since the Timeline videos are his interpretation of events and the limited knowledge that the Order had of Revan's motivations.
  • Ok, now my take on this issue. Basically you are right, but remember that this journal was written after the Sith Empire had revealed its existence to the galaxy. Moreover, it was written after the end of the Great Galactic War.I think it was created during the Cold War. Finally, this Jedi Master knew that Revan and Malak had met Sith Emperor. How did he gain this knowledge? He must have studied Revan's life very carefully, therefore he could state that his turning to the dark side was FINALLY completed after meeting the Emperor. It it was finally, then he must have been tainted by the dark side already beforehand, so during the Mandalorian Wars. Many saw big change in Revan character, including Meetra Surik.
• Similarly, whatever information that is presented in KOTOR 2 by Kreia is also warped by Kreia's opinions and incomplete knowledge. She was trying to understand how she could have failed so terribly with Revan, and she was grasping at scraps of knowledge and trying to piece together an account that she could use to convince herself that she was not to blame. Kreia had no knowledge of Vitiate's empire, and no one except Revan and Malak knew that Vitiate had turned them to the dark side.
  • I agree about Kreia. But Gnost-Dural had this knowledge, because he stated that Revan had met the Sith Emperor and after this event (though he could not describe in details what had happened in Emperor's throne room) had finally succumbed to the dark side.
• The Old Republic: Revan, on the other hand, gives us a far more factual account of events, as we learn what happened directly from Revan's memories. According to Revan, he and Malak were not dark siders during the Mandalorian Wars—Revan learned of the Sith influence on the Mandalorians from Mandalore the Ultimate's own dying words, and the pair then traveled to Rekkiad, where they learned of the existence of Nathema. I believe that at Rekkiad (or maybe before it), they left behind the Republic fleet they took with them, as they traveled to Nathema and then Dromund Kaas alone. They tried to kill Vitiate to protect the Republic and the galaxy from his hunger (because they had seen what he did to Nathema), which is something they wouldn't have done if they were dark side, in my opinion. Revan specifically states that Vitiate dominated their minds and turned them to the dark side, and sent them back to test the Republic. However, the two broke free of the conditioning not long after leaving. That's when they started to do their own Empire, and I've read somewhere in something from KOTOR 1 and 2 that Revan intended to conquer the Republic so tat he could protect it against something in the Unknown Regions—a.k.a. Vitiate's Empire. As for the Star Maps, that's another issue. If the Star Maps are dark-side artifacts, then theoretically Revan and Malak shouldn't have encountered it until after Vitiate turned them to the dark side, but.... how else would they hae known about the Star Maps in the first place? Hmm... I seem to recall it being mentioned somewhere that Vitiate was the one who sent them after the Star Maps. But that's another topic to discuss.
  • Ok. The first, canon. If the book shows whole truth, not being just a piece of it (important piece, I agree), then it can be said it contradicts the known canon (just like the Clone Wars series do it every time). In this case, the Wookieepeedia policy is clear - were are trying here to find the best solution, which is to combine all available sources and write an article, preserving in it as much old/new information as it's possible. But in my opinion, the book is not a big retcon, just a source of additional information, which with some good will (I hope you'll find it in yourself) can be added to the articles without removing previous contents. On other pages (Battle of Malachor V, Jedi Civil War, Revan) everybody is doing it in this good way. Only you're so stubborn :), but Ok, if you are going to rewrite this article continuously in your way, then fine. I surrender to you, because I have no time to "fight" over this issue. The second, continuity. If I remember correctly all known sources stated that Revan's descent to the dark side started with the Mandalorian Wars. At the beginning there was disobedience to the Jedi Council (just like Exar Kun and many others), next spliting up the Jedi Order and creating very loyal to their leader Revenchists (a common trait for all organization who becomes fanatical and corrupted), after that the brutal war (even in the real life war can change the most noble men), next the discovery of very tainted by the dark side and full of Sith teachings Trayus Academy in 3,961 BBY (where in the novel is stated that Revan has never visited this place - answer, nowhere), where Revan discovered some clues to Sith existence (he finally gained the confirmation from dying Mandalore the Ultimate - you see what I'm saying about combing all sources into a coherent article), next the order of construction of Mass Shadow Generator (destroying all life superweapon), next the disaster at the Battle of Malachor V (you can say that Meetra gave order to activate this weapon, but it was Revan's plan and execution, even the novel said he had given the order (or signal) to Meetra, in whose hands the superweapon was - this is another solution to find a "golden mean" for all sources who are not clear and seem - SEEM, important word -contradicting each other). So Revan was already tainted by the dark side when he met the Sith Emperor, it can also explain how he managed to corrupt so powerful "Jedi" and make him a Sith so easily). Besides I remember clearly that activation of MSG created a great disturbance in the Force (a wound to be precise) which trigger a massive falling of many Revanchists to the dark side - Meetra avoided this fate, cutting completely from the Force, which spared her "purity" I would say. The third and the most important argument - logic. If Revan were never tainted by the dark side during the war with Mandalorians, his organization composed of many Jedi and regular Republic soldiers, would also be not. If at the end of the war this organization were the same Jedi Knights who loved wholeheartedly the Republic, then please explain to me how they would follow their sharing this same feelings leader, who surprisingly returned from an unknown planet, declared himself a Dark Lord of the Sith and ordered them to destroy the Republic, which they swore to protect? Ok, let's assume that the Emperor managed to corrupt "pure" Revan and Malak. But how easily they in turn corrupted their organization in so short of time? It is completely illogical. But if you say that Revanchists was already walking (WALKING does not mean they choose this path with full awareness of their choices) the path of the dark side, saw corruption and inefficiency in the Republic government, that it's very probably that they were very eager to follow their "new Sith leader" in the campaign against the Galactic Republic. It can be said that at this moment they were finally turned to the dark side. By the way, the fact that Revan was horrified abut what happened on Nathema does not prove he was "purely light", because even so immersed in the dark side Sith Lords like Lord Scourge felt disgust for Emperor's action on this planet.
• So, there's my stance. What do you think, Dawidos? Cade Calrayn 16:53, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
  • Ok, so the summary. Revan fall to the dark side was a long process, starting from the Mandalorian Wars and ending with the meeting of the Sith Emperor. Revan said disobedience to his Jedi Mastrs, founded his own very militaristic Force-users faction, started living by a philosophy "the end justifies the means", did research about Sith teachings on Trayus Academy and ordered the construction and activation of Mass Shadow Generator-the Old Republic era Death Star (let's not forget that this weapon killed also many Jedi and Republic soldiers, which is an example of sacrificing others for "a greater good"). Now, the short answers to the most important questions.
    
    Did Revan was a Sith before he met the Sith Emperor? No
    Did Revan wanted to know more about Sith before he met the Sith Emperor? Yes, as a disobedient Jedi Knight he was eager to learn "forbidden" history and teachings of all Force-users.
    Did Revan was tainted by the dark side, were walking on the edge of the dark side, was close to cross the line before he met the Sith Emperor? ABSOLUTELY YES
    Did Revan planned to conquer the Republic before he met the Sith Emperor? No.
    Did a thought that Republic is a weak government and Jedi Order is too stagnant cross Revan's mind? I think so, because in this way it can be explained why his followers decided to join him during his Sith crusade against both of those organizations. It can be assumed that even if the Emperor had not enslaved Revan's mind, Revan would have attempted to stage a coup to create a more powerful government which would counter a threat from the Sith Empire in the Unknown Regions. Personally I think Revan's actions resemble Anakin Skywalker/Dath Vader and Jacen Solo/Darth Cadeus cases.
    
    I don't have anything against what you have written. I've offered my consensus with the last edition of this article. Dawidos

Humanocentrism?

From what I have seen there is at least some humanocentrism, i dont know if its a policy of the empire or just the views of certain members but the empire does seem to have a humanocentric slant, i dont know if Revan and Malak intended for this or it was just a side effect. Example, when you first leave your Taris hideout you meet that Sith Officer conducting a raid, he calls the aliens scum and simply shoots one who aks him why they are being raided again and he also cannot believe that humans are hiding out with aliens. Not huge evidence for humanocentrism, but it could be humanocentism. "They say God invented Whisky to stop the Irish from rulin' the world!" - Irish 11:30, November 28, 2012 (UTC)Wardie1993

• That's not notable for the article. The words of scattered members of the Empire's military does not cement the views of the Empire they served. NaruHina ^Talk 23:02, November 28, 2012 (UTC)