Quote regarding the holographic nature of the simulacrum
- "The latest feature in the Jedi trials Chamber is a holographic projector, introduced after the victory at Ruusan and capable of creating enemies from the air itself. With this tool you might face Darth Ruin, Lord Kaan, or any of the worst monsters to ever rise from the dark side."
- ―The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force (real-life book)
While it doesn't specify Desolous, it obviously means to include him and Phobos. Purpilia 16:48, February 25, 2011 (UTC)
- The Force Unleashed databank, Jedi Trials entry: Some of the most common trials involved battles against fearsome Force constructs lurking deep within the bowels of the Jedi Temple. As far as I can tell, this is what describes Desolous and Phobos, and I'd prefer to go with what the game says, instead of relying on some third party source unrelated to TFU. Besides, if the projector was installed in the Jedi Trials Chamber, how would it be able to project Darth Phobos, who appeared inside the Temple Archives in the game? QuiGonJinn
(Talk) 17:02, February 25, 2011 (UTC)
- The Jedi Path supercedes this. They are not ghosts or Force-manifestations, they are simulacrums...Purpilia 17:59, February 25, 2011 (UTC)
- It does not supersede anything. Does it mention that Desolous and Phobos were among the holograms created by the projector? No, that's you speculating. Also, the quote you've provided implies that the projector was installed in the Jedi Trials Chamber. I'm asking again; how can Phobos be a hologram if she appears outside the Trials Chamber in the game? Can you explain this? I don't think so. The information about them being Force constructs comes from the game, which is the source from which the characters originated. Therefore, it's more reliable than some book that doesn't mention Phobos and Desolous at all. Until some source explicitly says that Phobos and Desolous were holograms, I'm asking you to stop edit-warring to prove your point. QuiGonJinn
(Talk) 18:32, February 25, 2011 (UTC)
- From Daniel Wallace's blog after asking about the two Sith simulacrums: "12:02 PM Dan said... Regarding Darth Desolus and Darth Phobos, yes, I was intentionally referencing the hologram training from The Force Unleashed in that section. I avoided naming them in case there was any sort of timeline conflict." Seems he draws the same conclussion as I did...Purpilia 21:07, February 25, 2011 (UTC)
- Regardless, authorial intent =/= canon. If it never appeared in a licensed work that means it never happened, and it's not clear in The Jedi Path that he's talking about those two. Mr. Wallace's intents can be added to the articles' Bts sections, at best. QuiGonJinn (Talk) 21:27, February 25, 2011 (UTC)
- But from this source, which states that there is a holographic simulation of past Sith Lords used to create a suitable opponent for those taking the Trials, we can conclude that Desolous is indeed a simulacrum, not a random Sith ghost inhabiting the Jedi Temple and defeated by being crushed by a statue. And what the hell is a Force construct anyway??? The simulation program is canon, this makes sense. And in regards to Phobos appearing in the Archives...simply game mechanics. Her spirit isn't just appearing there for fun. It is part of the program known as the Trial of Insight.Purpilia 21:41, February 25, 2011 (UTC)
- There's a whole bunch of known Force constructs, Dark Spirit being one of the most well-known. And no, we cannot "assume" that Phobos and Desolous were holograms simply because the quote mentions "dark side monsters." It can refer to Phobos and Desolous, but it can also refer to, say, the Dark Underlord, Exar Kun, Kaox Krul, Darth Nihilus, you name it. I think every one of them qualifies as a "monster." Or are we just going to "assume" that those baddies also had holographic simulations of them created? The idea of TFU's Jedi Temple opponents being Force entities makes as much—if not more—sense, as it would explain how Phobos appeared in the Archives, or how Kento Marek and Darth Vader appeared in the Jedi Council Chambers during the "Trial of Spirit." Or do you think Kento and Vader were also holograms? Think about it, how could the Jedi incorporate Vader's image into the program if they were not aware of his existance until the Purge began? Clearly there was some sort of Force "spell," for the lack of a better word, that made those images appear as personal representations of one's weaknesses and fears. I think the best course of action would be to mention the hologram stuff in the Bts. By the way, is there any way at all to link to Daniel's blog post so that we can use it as a reference? QuiGonJinn (Talk) 10:18, February 26, 2011 (UTC)
- There's a whole bunch of known Force constructs, Dark Spirit being one of the most well-known. And no, we cannot "assume" that Phobos and Desolous were holograms simply because the quote mentions "dark side monsters." It can refer to Phobos and Desolous, but it can also refer to, say, the Dark Underlord, Exar Kun, Kaox Krul, Darth Nihilus, you name it. I think every one of them qualifies as a "monster." Or are we just going to "assume" that those baddies also had holographic simulations of them created? The idea of TFU's Jedi Temple opponents being Force entities makes as much—if not more—sense, as it would explain how Phobos appeared in the Archives, or how Kento Marek and Darth Vader appeared in the Jedi Council Chambers during the "Trial of Spirit." Or do you think Kento and Vader were also holograms? Think about it, how could the Jedi incorporate Vader's image into the program if they were not aware of his existance until the Purge began? Clearly there was some sort of Force "spell," for the lack of a better word, that made those images appear as personal representations of one's weaknesses and fears. I think the best course of action would be to mention the hologram stuff in the Bts. By the way, is there any way at all to link to Daniel's blog post so that we can use it as a reference? QuiGonJinn
- But from this source, which states that there is a holographic simulation of past Sith Lords used to create a suitable opponent for those taking the Trials, we can conclude that Desolous is indeed a simulacrum, not a random Sith ghost inhabiting the Jedi Temple and defeated by being crushed by a statue. And what the hell is a Force construct anyway??? The simulation program is canon, this makes sense. And in regards to Phobos appearing in the Archives...simply game mechanics. Her spirit isn't just appearing there for fun. It is part of the program known as the Trial of Insight.Purpilia 21:41, February 25, 2011 (UTC)
- Regardless, authorial intent =/= canon. If it never appeared in a licensed work that means it never happened, and it's not clear in The Jedi Path that he's talking about those two. Mr. Wallace's intents can be added to the articles' Bts sections, at best. QuiGonJinn
- From Daniel Wallace's blog after asking about the two Sith simulacrums: "12:02 PM Dan said... Regarding Darth Desolus and Darth Phobos, yes, I was intentionally referencing the hologram training from The Force Unleashed in that section. I avoided naming them in case there was any sort of timeline conflict." Seems he draws the same conclussion as I did...Purpilia 21:07, February 25, 2011 (UTC)
- It does not supersede anything. Does it mention that Desolous and Phobos were among the holograms created by the projector? No, that's you speculating. Also, the quote you've provided implies that the projector was installed in the Jedi Trials Chamber. I'm asking again; how can Phobos be a hologram if she appears outside the Trials Chamber in the game? Can you explain this? I don't think so. The information about them being Force constructs comes from the game, which is the source from which the characters originated. Therefore, it's more reliable than some book that doesn't mention Phobos and Desolous at all. Until some source explicitly says that Phobos and Desolous were holograms, I'm asking you to stop edit-warring to prove your point. QuiGonJinn
- The Jedi Path supercedes this. They are not ghosts or Force-manifestations, they are simulacrums...Purpilia 17:59, February 25, 2011 (UTC)
- To chime in, as reviewers of the FAN were invited to, I think the BTS remarks currently in the article are sufficient on this point. --Eyrezer 10:14, March 8, 2011 (UTC)
