Talk: Clone advisor

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This article was nominated for deletion on January 4, 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus: awaiting confirmation, possibly requiring renomination..


I'm assuming that "Clone advisors" are not assigned to every unit and that this was just assumed from the game content. If so, this should be deleted. — SparqMan Talk 20:42, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Shocking. He's not even an advisor; he's an officer who delivers missions. That's entirely made up. --— SparqMan Talk 23:40, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Here we go again. This is not supported by canon. How is this fellow different than any other Clone trooper officer? Please explain how canon supports your claim. — SparqMan Talk 04:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

  • SparqMan, how isn't this supported by canon? I don't have the game, but that clone trooper's role is an advisor to a clone commando squad. I thought he was an officer, which he very well may be. Maybe this article should be deleted, but as long as it's only us discussing that, we'll never get others' opinions. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) Imperial Emblem 12:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
    • It's not stated that "clone advisor" is anything more than just a nickname for that particular officer who assists Delta Squad. There's nothing to support it being a completely seperate group or rank - \\Captain Kwenn// — Ahoy! 12:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
      • But the fact is that they did advise clone commando squads. Normal clone troopers didn't. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) Imperial Emblem 12:12, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
        • But he could just have been a normal clone trooper. We see normal troopers in tactical roles aboard warship bridges during the Clone Wars, so they might also advise certain squads. Doesn't mean they have a specific rank - \\Captain Kwenn// — Ahoy! 12:18, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
      • "SparqMan, how isn't this supported by canon?" - because that's not how canon support works. Show me where the canon says that Lando doesn't where a size 7 shoe. Show me where the canon says that Wedge prefers orange socks. Canon only supports what it says and what it shows. In this case, it shows that CT-01/425 was a clone trooper who gave orders to Delta Squad, not that "clone advisor" was a title, rank, position or aspirational goal. If you have some evidence that does support this conjecture, please provide it. --— SparqMan Talk 16:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
        • SparqMan, he's shown advising the clone commandos before their mission, and he doesn't have an established rank. This duty was never mentioned as a standard duty performed by clone troopers. It's conjecture, yes, but what I've said is still enough to have this article. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) Imperial Emblem 20:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
      • I saw a clone trooper walk down a ramp in ROTS. I haven't seen walking down a ramp described in a canon source as a normal clone activity, so I think it's fair to "conjecture" an article into being named "Clone ramp-walker". I assume you're in support of that as well? I agree that CT-01/425 can be described as "advising" Delta Squad, but you have no evidence that this is a Clone trooper variant. That is complete fantasy. Help me understand how this article is canon and helpful beyond what already exists at CT-01/425. — SparqMan Talk 21:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
        • SparqMan, stop coming up with stupid things that you think can be compared to this. Whether you realize it or not, clone troopers did not serve as advisors to clone commandos. CT-01/425 did. Now, I'd like to see you come up with one good reason why this article shouldn't be here. And don't give me one of your "comparisons" again. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) Imperial Emblem 01:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
      • I think I have stated the most obvious reasons that this article should not be here, but I will summarize them again. First, any canon detail in this article is duplicative of CT-01/425. Second, any information about "clone advisors", from the title of the article to their role is conjecture. All we know is that CT-01/425 did what he did, NOT that anyone else did it. It is unacceptable to canonize this role based on his existence, which does not support the existence of others like him. Until you can provide canon evidence that there was a group of clone troopers specialized in advising clone commando units, you're supporting the existence of fanon, even if it is based on canon information. As for my comparisons, they are equally "stupid" as this article. Taking one person you see in universe and extrapolating that they are part of something larger is fantasy. Here's a more realistic example, Am I wrong in that? — SparqMan Talk 16:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
        • So, because George W. Bush is the only U.S. President right now, there's no need for an article on the U.S. President? Of course not. The same goes for this. Whether or not CT-01/425 was the only one of his kind is besides the point. He was a clone advisor, and therefore this article is needed. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) Imperial Emblem 21:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
      • Your example does not work. George W. Bush is the only U.S. President right now, but we know that the office of the POTUS exists, not to mention that others have preceded him. We do not have that kind of information regarding CT-01/425. Whether or not he was the only one of his kind is not important; the fact that we do not have any verification that this was some sort of special position is. We clearly disagree, so I'll nominate this for deletion and we can bring a larger discussion to it. — SparqMan Talk 21:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Nooo !

Agree, i'm not! This article should not be deleted!Jack Nebulax is right!From my opinion every clone squad has a clone advisor!Darth Nospher 14:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Alright, I'll take the bait. Your opinion of "every clone squad has a clone advisor" is irrelevant. The only occurance of a so-called "clone advisor" is CT-01/425, and so very little information is available. The only thing we know is that he gave orders to a squad of clone commandos. That doesn't make him a "Clone Advisor", no more than Han Solo is a "Stormtrooper Shooter". Maclimes Zero (talk) Infinite Empire 16:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Well I'll be darned...

Here's some quotes from Ryan Kaufman regarding "Clone Advisors" (Comment by Ryan Kaufman on the TheForce.net forums):

You know, we never did develop full-on backstory for the Clone Advisors. My feeling is that, given Arligan Zey and Bardan Jusik were responsible for the entire Special Forces group, they brought in these clone advisors as support staff. The clone advisors were probably initially Captains, Majors or Commanders. But as the war grew, I'm imagining they were specialized, and culled from the rank and file batches. They would be given special tactical and logistical training, taught to analyze intelligence and interpret it for the commandos. Not full officers, but clones with very specialized support training.

Regarding Phase I armor during ROTS timeframe:

Remember that RC came out in February, so people weren't familiar with the Phase II look yet. If I had to retcon, I'd say the Advisors kept their Phase I armor, because the more-limited Phase II supply was given first to soldiers on the front line.

The question now becomes: As a "former continuity supervisor", is Ryan Kaufman a canon source? If so, this article can not only be kept, but expanded as well. That's some nice info there, and a good start on an article, with evidence of multiple individuals filling this role. Otherwise, we have nothing, and are gonna have to give it up for now on this article. Maclimes Zero (talk) Infinite Empire 17:11, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

"My feeling is that, given Arligan Zey and Bardan Jusik were responsible for the entire Special Forces group, they brought in these clone advisors as support staff." The emphasis is his. Unfortunately, his feeling is not canon, regardless of his position. — SparqMan Talk 18:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
  • If Ryan Kaufman refers to this type of clone trooper as a clone advisor and he is a canon source, then the name "Clone advisor" should stay.--Darth Tyler(talk) 18:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Despite how much I dislike it, I'm afraid I have to agree with Darth Tyler. Although we can't use any information from the quote, it does indicate that there is such a position as "clone advisor", and it is a real position used by more than one clone. His "feeling" refers to the backstory and info, not their existance. Afraid I'm gonna have to vote Keep on this one, against my own better judgement. Maclimes Zero (talk) Infinite Empire 18:21, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
  • But Ryan Kaufman himself is not a canon source, Star Wars: Republic Commando is. In the same manner that Harrison Ford's comments on Han Solo are not canon. — SparqMan Talk 19:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Do the other "Clone Commando" squads have advisors? Maclimes Zero (talk) Infinite Empire 19:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
  • All of the units listed at Clone commando/Legends#Clone_commando_units did not as far as we know, with the exception of CT-01/425 relationship with Delta Squad. That includes Omega Squad, which had a whole book to draw upon. Does CT-01/425 appear with Delta Squad in Republic Commando: Triple Zero? SparqMan Talk 19:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
    • I don't have the book myself, but it's interesting to note that his only listed Appearance is the game, whereas Delta squad itself has 4 appearances. Maclimes Zero (talk) Infinite Empire 19:26, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
      • Uh, SparqMan, Kaufman did say "clone advisors", as in more than one. Regardless of his feeling, that comment shows that there are more clone advisors. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) Imperial Emblem 20:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
    • @Nebulax: Kaufman is not a canon source. @MaclimesZero: He's not in the other books, but I didn't read Triple Zero. — SparqMan Talk 20:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Nebulax, we're interpreting canon differently. You take a more liberal stance, seeing CT-01/425's existence (canon) as proof that he was of a special clone trooper variant designed to do what he did (conjecture). I take a more conservative stance, seeing that CT-01/425 was a clone trooper who worked with Delta Squad (canon). I'd rather err on the side of caution when it comes to assuming information. Now, if we are going to accept Kaufman's forum comments as canon, we have a lot of work to do integrating the external notes and whims of authors about their works into articles as canon information. — SparqMan Talk 20:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
      • I'm not saying that we should take everything he says as canon. But we should be open to the possibility that there are more clone advisors. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) Imperial Emblem 20:49, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm open to the possibility. When another "clone advisor" appears alongside a clone commando squad, we'll have sufficient canon support about the unit. But their complete absence from any other appearance of clone commanod units is sufficient canon evidence against CT-01/425 being anything more than an abberation. — SparqMan Talk 20:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
      • But Ryan Kaufman said there are more than one. That much should be accepted as canon. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) Imperial Emblem 20:55, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
        • But Ryan said so! Well, if Ryan felt so strongly about it, he should have worked it into the game. Or slipped a note to the dozens of other creatives who worked on sources with clone commandos in them. — SparqMan Talk 22:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
  • A thought occured to me: For the moment, let's leave it as is. Worst case scenario, honestly, is that this article is excessive, but not necessarily non-canon. While I don't think the article is needed, it's existance is not, in and of itself, a detriment. Besides, later this year we'll be seeing Star Wars: Clone Wars (3-D), which will hopefully shed some light on this and other clone-related topics. Once that show comes out, I bet a ton of stuff will be added to the canon regarding clones, and a lot of things will have to be re-written or expanded anyway. Maclimes Zero (talk) Infinite Empire 21:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
    • I added a BTS section that will hopefully make it more clear immediately, and therefore make the article more acceptable. Maclimes Zero (talk) Infinite Empire 21:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
      • I appreciate the effort, Maclimes Zero, but that is almost worse. "It may or may not be...it kinda sorta is something...". If we want to work that kind of disclaimer in, it should be on CT-01/425's article, noting that he appears unique in his role. That seems safer than giving a wishy-washy disclaimer longer than the article itself. — SparqMan Talk 22:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
        • SparqMan, why must you continue to say things like that? We're trying to include your point of view on the topic, and you're just saying it's making things worse. If you don't like it so much, then why don't you fix up the "Behind the scenes" section to include your reasoning? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) Imperial Emblem 22:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
        • Kinda like when a quote is longer than the article itself? ;) Seriously though, I agree. Unfortunately, Wookieepedia has not really set a major precedent for that. There are dozens of vaguely-canon stubs scattered around. In keeping with the current pattern of this wiki, I still vote "Keep". However, if you want to begin a major overhaul of this wiki into a more encyclopedic format, compressing dozens of tiny stublets into large, well-edited articles, I say we get that ball rolling. But that needs to be addressed before going against the grain on this one article, or it's a meaningless victory. Maclimes Zero (talk) Infinite Empire 22:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
          • And SparqMan, if there is more than one clone advisors, deleting this article would accomplish nothing. It would just be re-created. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) Imperial Emblem 22:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
            • Actually, according to the Law Of The Bus Always Arriving As Soon As You Light A Cigarette, there will only be more canon examples of clone advisors IF we delete this article. But I digress. ;) Maclimes Zero (talk) Infinite Empire 22:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

What the ?

I don't know why we keep this fight! Is enough information that clone advisors should exist! What delta squad do without him ???Scorch: Boss, what we are gonna do?Boss: I don't know Scorch, Sparqman erased our clone advisor!Darth Nospher 22:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Chill. No one is saying that CT-01/425 did not exist. Simply that the role he filled may not have actually been setting a precedent, and the role itself may not warrant a wiki article. To assuage your fears, note that CT-01/425 does not appear in ANY other source with Delta Squad except the game, implying that they would, in fact, be just fine without him. :D Maclimes Zero (talk) Infinite Empire 22:26, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah... I know

I understand it! It's outrageous !You can imagine that there are more than one clone advisors, every clone commando should have a clone advisor !the clone advisor inform delta squad where to shoot when destroing the bridge of Kachirho by a charge failed etc..... !Darth Nospher 22:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Please calm down. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) Imperial Emblem 22:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Yes, we can imagine it, but when we imagine things and call them real, it's fanon. — SparqMan Talk 22:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Also, understand that the advisor was likely created as a game mechanic, to make it more clear what you are supposed to be doing in those chaotic levels. The fact that they gave this game mechanic a name, a voice, and a personality turned him into a canon character... but in the end, he's an overblown in-game hint system. Hey, listen! Maclimes Zero (talk) Infinite Empire 22:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

when

Hey when the vote is ending ???Darth Nospher 13:06, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

What a fight !

What a fight for nothing ! We should create the article named The Great Battle of the Clone advisor article instead of deleting the page!Darth Nospher 16:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, if this Ryan Kaufman guy is a canon source, then the clone advisor should stay. If this Ryan Kaufman guy isn't a canon source, than the clone advisor shouldn't stay. But until we find out this mystery, there's no point in debating. (However, I may be wrong)--Darth Tyler(talk) 16:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Er, "this Ryan Kaufman guy" is a canon source - \\Captain Kwenn// — Ahoy! 16:33, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Then the clone advisor should stay. --Darth Tyler(talk) 16:35, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Kaufman himself is not a canon source. His works are, but he is not. — SparqMan Talk 17:12, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
      • Yep, and the backstory of his works, reflected in the comments he makes on said backstories, are also canon - \\Captain Kwenn// — Ahoy! 17:28, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Perhaps in my absence I missed a Wookieepedia policy that allows for commentary from authors to count as canon. Can you point me to that? If I'm in the wrong on this, I'll gladly accept a stay on the vote. — SparqMan Talk 02:55, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
      • No, Kaufman's word is not canon unless supported by Leland Chee. --Imp 05:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
        • ...something that very well may happen. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) Imperial Emblem 12:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
        • And when it does, we'll reinstate the article with whatever canon information Mr. Chee approves. So again, can someone point me to the policy that lets off-handed remarks from authors count as canon? — SparqMan Talk 15:00, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
          • SparqMan, from now on, we should ask Leland Chee first before nominating possible canon articles for deletion. The fact is, you don't get to decide what's canon and what isn't. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) Imperial Emblem 21:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
      • No, we should not. Nominating an article for deletion is a call to the community to provide evidence for or against its removal. Since you support it, the burden of proof is upon you. So please, if you have the time and means, ask Mr. Chee if "clone advisors" are a specialized variant of clone troopers. — SparqMan Talk 16:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
        • It's already been asked, and by someone who's currently supporting this article's deletion. Go to the deletion page and click the appropriate link in the "Comments" section. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) Imperial Emblem 21:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

again

hey, i begin the Republic Commando game again and CT-01/425 says clear 38 i'm your clone advisor !Darth Nospher 12:06, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Republic Commando

I think somewhere in the Prosecutor that CT-01/425 called for an ship in some system to help Delta Squad. I believe he said, "This is Delta Squad advisor CT-01/425..." I don't have the game, but I asked a friend of mine who does have it. Can someone verify it? --Darth Tyler(talk) 12:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)