Talk: Anakin Skywalker/Legends/Archive9

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"...unable to generate or deflect Force lightning..."

Is this really an accurate statement. He could generate Force lightning, but didn't risk it. What's the source for him being unable to deflect it?--Lord OblivionSith holocron30px 02:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

    • He has a metal arm. This isn't good for electricity, methinks. Cutch 03:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
      • ROTS Visual Dictionary. .... 03:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
        • I know, but I think he could try to generate lightning, but it would severely his suit's systems. The article implies this as well.--Lord OblivionSith holocron30px 03:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
          • Fresh from the VD: As a result of having artificial arms, Darth Vader will never be able to conjure Sith lightning – nor be invulnerable to it. .... 03:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
            • Can we assume "will never be able" means he isn't able to do it without killing himself?--Lord OblivionSith holocron30px 03:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
              • "Never be able" doesn't leave much to the imagination. He can't do it. He couldn't try. .... 03:59, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
                • From this artice: "This was due to his cybernetic implants, and any attempt by Vader to generate it would electrocute his life-support system, causing it to short-circuit and kill him." Is this just speculation?--Lord OblivionSith holocron30px 04:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
                  • Possibly, because the VD says that he could not conjure it. .... 04:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
                    • <sigh> Cutch 04:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Well, that was exceptionally constructive. .... 04:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I just love the way things are repeated around here several dozen times. Cutch 04:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Neccesity is the mother of intention. Some people just don't get it on first try. .... 04:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
        • What the Hell! I'm saying he was able to generate it at the risk of damaging his cybernetics. Your saying he couldn't even do that.--Lord OblivionSith holocron30px 04:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
          • Yes, that's what I'm saying. It's what James Luceno is saying too. .... 04:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
            • The Hell with this! Either I'm not understanding you, or you're not understanding me. And I will not be patronized.--Lord OblivionSith holocron30px 04:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
              • Erm...OK. *furrows eyebrow*. What I am saying is that he could not conjure it. Period. What you are saying is that he could, but he would do some serious damage to himself. Aren't you? .... 08:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
                • And since somebody's probably going to mention it, the 'ball of energy' Vader throws at Luke in the pages of Splinter of the Mind's Eye was something along the lines of a 'kinetite' -a manifestation of kinetic energy. This was mentioned in one of the letters pages of Star Wars Insider (alas I do not know which issue).Tocneppil 09:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
                • To be fair, most people are quite content shortening "never be able to do X without dying" or even "never be able to do X without grave consequences" to just "never be able to do X." Doctors told someone I know with diabetes that he'd never be able to drink again - but was still perfectly *capable* of drinking, which is why he's now losing appendages and likely to die soon. jSarek 09:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
                  • ...thanks for sharing that tidbit with us jSarek. Sobering. I always thought that in Splinter of the Minds Eye, the comic artists were way off. Dean Foster's description of that power was more akin to that "Force Destruction" thing that Jerec pulls on Rahn. That's what I thought Jedi Knight was trying to do - Vader's power in SOTME. But...no. .... 09:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I am just think if he is a metal man, it couldn't even generate force power, the book saids so~ --Master Chief Petty Officer 14:13, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Stuff that bothers me

About the infobox, that is. I think there should either be a picture of Vader, or of Shaw Anakin. The infobox picture is supposed to show the most recent appearance of the person in question, and the only way we could get away with Christiansen Anakin is if Force Ghosts count.... Also, I'm calling his Jedi infobox into question. Does returning to the light side for five seconds 'really constitute having rejoined the Jedi order? Rodtheanimegod4ever 07:12, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Yes. And images do not have to be the most recent appearance. They should be the "in their prime" appearance. .... 07:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Besides, where does it say it should be the "most recent" image? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 14:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
      • If I could add something that bothers me- the Vader's lightsabre thing. The claim that Vader's "first lightsabre" (IMO, his only one, but we'll get to that) was too small for his prosthetic hands is not in line with the facts as related in Dark Lord- Vader was well aware of his larger hands before he started construction, and he designed the weapon accordingly. We also know that the prop-guys for RotS designed Vader's lightsabre in RotS to be a combination of the features of the versions of it we saw in ANH, TESB, and RotJ- i.e. his "true" lightsabre. The only reason the lightsabres in ANH etc are different is because they lost the props. It seems to be going overboard to attribute them as all being different- if we went by that reasoning, Luke's lightsabre isn't really Anakins. And the less said about the farce of "Splinter of the Mind's Eye", the better ...Vymer 10:56, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
      • As I just said, so were Luke's lightsabre props. Are we to believe then that he had multiple lightsbares- ie. he really wasn't given Anakin's lightsabre by Obi-Wan, just a sort-of copy, and the same for TESB, etc? There comes a point where you've got to draw the line. And Splinter of the Mind's Eye is total rubbish. I don't care how many people tell me that Luke fought Vader before TESB. :) (j/k) Vymer 02:40, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
        • Yeah...that whole Vader having different sabres thing is junk, I'll give you that. It was the same one, the whole way through, unless you give me a source that says that he made new ones. Otherwise, the Executor is actually a different ship for one shot of TESB...the SE shot. .... 03:02, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
          • Vader's lightsaber props were different enough to be considered in-universe that they were different lightsabers. Anakin's Episode III lightsaber and Luke's Episode IV and V lightsabers doesn't seem to have that much of a difference to them. And you can think whatever you want about Splinter of the Mind's Eye, but it's canon. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 12:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
      • Actually I'd say an argument could be made that it implicitly contradicts TESB by its very existence and at least the duel at the end should be tossed aside for the nonsense it is on that basis alone, but that's neither here nor there. As for Vader's lightsabre props being different enough to considered in-universe different, source? As far as I can see, the same reasoning that assumes Vader had multiple lightsabres merely because of a question of props applies to Luke/Anakin's sabre, I don't know of any source that claims he actually had multiple sabres. As for Luke's lightsabres- the differences between all of them are quite extensive. http://www.partsofsw.com/skysab.htm, http://www.partsofsw.com/esbsksab.htm. And of course, the difference between Anakin's Ep 3 lightsabre and the OT version are extremely obvious- no D-ring at the bottom, and the "socket" connector that attaches to their belts is present - as it is on most PT sabres - to name just two. (just like Vader's Ep 3 sabre, I might add).Vymer 14:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
      • Anyway, pending a source for this "multiple lightsabres" claim, I'll point out the passage from Dark Lord that proves that Vader's Episode 3 prop (being an amalgam of all the props that came before it- and hence his "true" lightsabre IMO) was already designed with his prosthetic hands in mind: His new hands were too large to duplicate the loose grip Anakin had favored, right hand wrapped not on the grip but around the crystal-housing cylinder, close to the blade itself. Vader's hands required that the grip be thicker and longer, and the result was an inelegant weapon, verging on the ungainly. In other words- this seems like a fanon rationalization to solve an unecessary problem (ie. assuming every prop must be a new sabre), and contradicts Dark Lord to boot. I'd also say that on the face of it the notion that any force user would design a lightsabre yet not take care to make sure it fit his hands, no matter how new those hands were, rather silly.Vymer 14:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
        • First of all, stop saying Splinter of the Mind's Eye shouldn't be canon. It is, and you can't change that. Second: Do us a favor and prove all of Vader's lightsaber props are meant to be the same one. Third: Luke could have modified his lightsaber between ANH and TESB. As for the RotS version, Obi-Wan could have also modified it a bit in that 19 year period. In fact, perhaps Vader just modified his lightsaber over those years. But first, please give a source that proves they were meant to be one in the same. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 21:34, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
          • And if there isn't a source saying they were meant to be the same, perhaps we could try using my "modified over time" theory. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 23:13, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
          • At the very least, the duel at the end of Splinter of the Mind's Eye isn't canon. Luke didn't duel Vader and win before TESB- period. That's absurd, and it'll remain absurd. As for asking for a source that they're meant to be the same- sorry, that burden does not lie on me, the burden lies on those asserting they're all different. There's no more reason to assume they're all different sabres than all of Anakin's/ Luke's sabres between RotS and TESB. As for evidence that they're all meant to be the same- take a look at the Master Replicas website. Of all of the lightsabers seen in the Star Wars saga, Darth Vader's has undergone the most changes. Each time the prop has appeared in previous filmed episodes it has differed in detail with many versions, both hero and stunts being made. In Star Wars: Episode III Revenge of the Sith, the prop department has taken previous versions of Vader's iconic weapon of ultimate evil and amalgamated them seamlessly into one. From the Master Replicas site. Now, I've proven that the sabre was designed with his new hands in mind, at the very least. I've demonstrated why the reasoning that they're all different sabres is flawed.Vymer 23:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
            • Vymer, all of Splinter of the Mind's Eye is canon. Stop disputing it. And telling me it's my job to prove that they were all different is telling me you don't have a source for what you're saying. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 23:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
            • Luke didn't fight Vader before TESB- never mind win- the concept is so obviously contrary to the highest canon, never mind patently ridiculous, as to be laughable. Anyway- as I said, you don't have a source for claiming these are all different sabres, the article is wrong on the claim that his first sabre was too small, and, again, claiming the sabres are different is no different than applying the same reasoning to Luke's sabres. It's just that simple.Vymer 10:58, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
                • Vymer, i've been reading this conversation, and your kind of getting on my nerves now! Splinter of the Mind's Eye is 100%, Lucas endorsed canon, and you 'cannot change that. And if you cant provide a source for your information, contrary to the article then your the one who will lose, becase either Nebulax or myself will just revert your removal of the information. Jasca Ducato Sith Council Sith Campaign 11:18, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
          • Simply because something is canon does not make it incontrevertible. It is EU, and as such, must answer to the films, and the films say the duel at the end never happened. I must've missed the conversation in TESB where Luke talked about how he's fought Vader before and beat him, therefore he'll beat him this time too. I can't believe this is even a serious matter of discussion that I'm "getting on your nerves" for pointing out how utterly ridiculous it is that a barely-trained boy who hasn't even been to see Yoda yet (when he still got beaten!) was able to beat the Dark Lord of the Sith! Has the world gone mad?Vymer 11:27, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
          • As to the question of lightsabres:
          • 1. The paragraph, as it stands now, is wrong. I've provided the quote from Dark Lord. The issue of his first lightsabre is not a subject for debate. It was not "too small for his new prosthetic hands". That's a canon fact.
          • 2. No one has yet justified to me why Vader's different props must each mean a different sabre yet the same reasoning doesn't apply to Anakin's sabre that Luke was given by Obi-Wan. From Episode III to Episode V, it is noticeably different in every version, significantly. Either you apply the reasoning to both or you apply it to none. I'm calling for some intellectual consistency here, nothing more.Vymer 11:31, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
            • Yes, the world has gone mad! Skywalker battle Vader on Mimban! Period. Splinter is canon no matter how absurd it sounds, stop argueing against the point. Jasca Ducato Sith Council Sith Campaign 11:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
              • Vymer, I'm not debating the "too small for his prosthetic hands". I never did. And until you provide a source that Vader's lightsabers were meant to be the same, it's not getting changed. And stop argueing over Splinter of the Mind's Eye, for God's sake. It's canon, and that will never change, no matter how much you don't like it. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 12:14, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
          • I'm not saying it's not canon. I'm saying it's contradicted. There's a difference. I find it amusing that no one is willing to actually argue the evidence on that fact head on- simply repeat "it's canon" like a mantra that can somehow magic away the fact that it's BS. In any event- as for Vader's lightsabres- you haven't justified just why you think it's appropriate to say that Vader's lightsabres are all different, yet Luke's lightsabres are not. The reasoning, sparse as it is, is exactly the same- the props are different, therefore they're not actually the same. So, again, justify just why you think it's valid for one and not the other.Vymer 12:17, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
            • Vymer, until you provide a source saying they were all the same, they weren't, because they are so different. Yes, Luke's lightsaber was different in some of the films, but those are minor differences compared to Vader's. And Splinter of the Mind's Eye is not contradicted is TESB. So stop talking about it here. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 12:21, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
          • First of all, because they are so different: the Ep 3, Ep 4, and Ep 5 versions of the prop are all actually quite similar, visually speaking- the differences between them are no more significantly discernible than the differences between the Episode 3 Anakin sabre, the Episode 4, and Episode 5 versions thereof. The only one that is more obviously different is the Episode VI sabre. Second minor differences compared to Vader's- I beg to differ. The most significant difference between the Ep 3 and Ep 4 versions of Luke's sabre and Ep 3 and Ep 4 versions of Vader's sabre are practically identical- the D-ring versus the "socket" (on the side of the weapon) for attachment to the belt, as well as a completely different activation button "face". And I've said why SOTME is contradicted- your simply saying it isn't is not a valid argument.Vymer 12:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
          • Provide a source for Vader's lightsabres being all different. The only possible case is for the Episode VI version- the differences between the rest are as "minor" as you claim for those of Luke's lightsabres. And on what grounds do you decide my analysis isn't good enough? I certainly haven't seen you specify the differences in any detail whatsoever. I, on the other hand, have.Vymer 12:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
          • My analysis, in full

-Episode IV versus Episode V sabre of Luke Skywalker:

- second red button.

- Six black rubber hand grips, instead of seven

- HP-44 bus type computer card edge connector acting as the "face" for the activation switch, instead of the Light Emitting Diode display bubble type lens -from a vintage calculator (makes for an entirely different button)

- the D-ring is a different design (minor)

-Episode III sabre versus the other two:

- no D-ring whatsoever, a side "socket" connector, like all PT hero sabres. - different face for the activation switch - different activation switch - different color button - no second button as on TESB version

-Episode IV vader sabre versus Episode V vader sabre:

- differences described as "minor" on partsofsw.com, and indeed, visually, they're not that different. Part of the reason is because in ANH, Vader actually -had two different props. One of them is the same design as the one from TESB, the other isn't. Therefore, the "TESB" sabre is actually largely -identical to one of the props used in ANH ("ANH 2" sabre), and little different from the other (which we'll call the "ANH" sabre).

- the primary difference between what is considered the "ANH" sabre and the "TESB" sabre is longer rubber grips. It also has only six, whereas the "ANH" -model had seven.

-Hey- just like the Episode IV and Episode V version of Luke's sabre!

-Episode VI Vader sabre:

- differs more visibly from the others. This is because it's actually a modified Anakin/Luke TESB sabre, ie. it's designed from a Graflex 3-cell flashgun, -not the MPP design used for Vader's sabres in ANH/TESB.

-Episode III Vader sabre: an amalgam of all the sabres (mostly the ANH and TESB ones)- it has seven black rubber grips, like the ANH sabre, but they're longer, like the TESB -sabre. Also has PT features- a different activation face and switch, and a side-socket in place of the D-ring connector.Vymer 12:54, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Vymer, the fact is that the evidence points towards them all being different lightsabers. Thus far, you have not provided a source saying they were meant to be the same. Until you do, this discussion won't produce anything valuable to the article. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 20:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Indeed. Vader could just have modified his weapon over time. And we know he's inclined to do so, because he starts modifying his armour as early as Dark Lord. Also, there's a precedent for characters modifying their lightsabers - such as Yoda, who altered his between AotC and RotS, effectively explaining the discrepancies in appearance between films - \\Captain Kwenn// — Ahoy! 20:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
      • So, we have three posibilities here. The first is that they are all the same; the second that they are all different; and the third is that they are one but were modified. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 20:49, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
        • Well it can't simply be the first one, because there are differences between films. However, if no source has stated Vader used more than one lightsaber, then we have to assume he modified it over time, as did Obi-Wan his - \\Captain Kwenn// — Ahoy! 20:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
          • Exactly. Option three is more of a "if one and two aren't sourced" thing. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 20:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
          • I don't recall Vader's lightsabre being destroyed in his nonsensical duel on Minban? He got his armed chopped off, that's it, as far as I can recall. (and this is part of the reason why I brought up the fact that this duel is a load of BS that never really happened as far as the films is concerned ...)Vymer 04:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
            • It's C-canon. And if anyone could check the book to find any references, that'd be great; however, since I think the lightsaber falls into the pit with him, it's probably safe to assume he recovered it - \\Captain Kwenn// — Ahoy! 08:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
          • While we're at it, what's this "guided by Obi-Wan Kenobi" stuff? I don't remember that in Splinter either.Vymer 10:04, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
        • As I recall, he picked up his lightsabre from his severed arm and kept on fighting. If he fell down the shaft, then his sabre simply went with him. Damned if I can find my copy of the book, however. I don't remember anything about "guided by Kenobi" or some such. Has anyone got the infernal book? (don't get me wrong, it's not poorly written, but it was written in 1978 before there even was an EU, and it shows).Vymer 11:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Vader and Luke's duel on Mimban doesn't bother me at all, in fact it almost seems to have a direct reference in ESB: "If you choose to face Vader you must do so alone. I cannot interfere" - Obi-Wan Kenobi, it wasn't "Luke vs Vader", it was Obi-Wan vs Vader - and thus Vader was caught off guard. - His lightsaber isn't destroyed, his arm is chopped off and then he retrieves his saber.(128.243.220.21 14:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC))

  • Actually that's another reason I scoff at it as nonsense- Obi-Wan saying such a thing tells me he wouldn't have interefered at any previous time whatsoever either- nevermind the curious notion that Obi-Wan would simply let both Luke and Leia fight their father without any serious comment- you know, stuff like Yoda and Obi-Wan entreating him not to go! The straight dope is this: it's an anomalous book written before TESB, and as such, makes absolute manure out of massive plot points of the subsequent films. As for this being the place to argue it or not- the story has a direct relation to the topic. And the source stinks to high heaven. Anyway- re: Vader's lightsabre. I've got an idea. Whose got the NEGWT? Does it not have an entry for his lightsabre?Vymer 15:30, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
    • I own NEGW&T, and the only things it says about his lightsaber are: "Darth Vader constructed traditional versions [note the plural] of the lighsaber [...] Darth Vader's dual-phase lightsaber featured controls to adjust the length and width of his blade. Vader also mastered a deadly lightsaber throw, hurling the energy blade at his enemies and then using the Force to recall the weapon." Hope that helps. -Solus (Bird of Prey) 16:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I was responding to someone else. And it relates directly to the topic at hand (ie. Anakin Skywalker/ Darth Vader) so I don't see why it should be out of bounds. What it says or doesn't say, and whether this contradicts higher canon, is a legitimate topic of discussion in any topic where it's a source. And whether it's canon or not is immaterial to the resolution of those issues.Vymer 05:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
  • There are all sorts of excerpts in articles discussing the canonicity and contradictions in multiple sources on Wookiepedia. The size of the Grand Army comes immediately to mind. Simply because something is canon doesn't make it true, not if it contradicts higher canon. It's a valid topic for discussion.Vymer 08:44, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
    • 1) That's your opinion. 2) This isn't the place. 3) Knock it off. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 20px 14:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
      • Actually, I'm in agreement with Vymer on this. Jack: You do the same thing sometimes, so don't tell him to knock it off. And it's not his opinion. It's true, and this is the place for discussion about the article. When you click on the thing labeled "discussion", don't you expect to find discussion on points in the article? However, this particular section isn't the place for it. The reason why he is bringing up Splinter of the Mind's Eye so much is because Vader loses his lightsaber, which is part of the discussion AND contradicting other material where he has a similar if not the same lightsaber.\/ladius |\/|agnum 17:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)