What original research?
Someone apparently thinks that some original research has gone into the writing of this article and has added an {{OR}} template at the top of the page. Please list such issues here that they may be addressed. If nothing can be satisfactorily identified as original research by the end of this month, then I will remove the template. Thank you for your cooperation. —GethralkinHyperwave 04:59, July 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Although the issue has not been addressed appropriately on this talk page as I had requested, I am answering objections made to me elsewhere. I have contacted one of the former developers of the game and he has verified the canonicity of Star Wars PocketModel TCG names of episodic material in TCW. Units depicted in the series are approved personally by George Lucas and Lucas Arts as evidenced here. Colors on squadrons of ships/droids are identifiers of there fleet/squadron/unit affiliations and such identification was specifically labelled (such as 88th Flight) in the SWPM game by Topps/WizKids, using names given by Lucas Arts. Therefore, Lucas Arts is the source of the names of the units. WizKids applied the names to the corresponding images provided by George Lucas and his production team for TCW. As the administrator and owner of the official site for the game, I personally have been privy to this information. However, in the interest of providing supporting evidence to disavow any accusation of self-citation or Original Research in this article or on this site wherever SWPM material is concerned, I have therefore produced confirmation from one of the developers for this purpose. Thank you. —GethralkinHyperwave 20:08, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
- Gethralkin, you still have failed to produce official confirmation that the 88th Flight are the fighters seen in that particular episode. All you did was show that the material is canon. To quote from the link you posted: "As a play tester for the new sets, I can also verify that the names and colors used are canon". Nothing about whether or not they appear in the episode. Cade Calrayn
20:31, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
- Well, the colors on the figures do match the fighters in the show, as can be seen from the links from the sources list. As the color schemes and the names attached to those markings were provided by LucasArts, I'd say that meets the burden of attribution. NaruHina Talk
21:03, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
- Absolutely. I can not imagine why one would say, on the one hand, that they agree with an official statement that appropriately marked units of a squadron are canon previews of actual squadrons in a series and, on the other hand, declare that there is "nothing [said] about whether or not they appear in the episode" by name. It sounds as if Cade's expectations are a bit unreasonable. As for wanting official confirmation, the Official Star Wars PocketModels website and the administration of that website is official. I had been an official envoy for the WizKids company and for the Star Wars PocketModels TCG (as well as other game lines) for several years before I was given an administrative position on the official site. The designation of being an official site for the game is not self-labeled, by the way. However, we were acknowledged as such by the Topps/WizKids company while under their contract with LucasArts. I only provided the statement of one of the developers so that this would be a non-issue. However, it appears that we are now going into a discussion of semantics that is superfluous to the point of the matter. This is the same type of argument as over the Ahsoka Tano Delta-B emblem being the Jedi insignia, and I feel that it is an argument designed to cause disruption, especially since the official statement that the Clone Wars game pieces were "based completely on the unfolding Clone Wars cartoon series... provided and approved prior to launch by Lucas Arts" was ignored in Cade's post above. —GethralkinHyperwave 23:30, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
- Gethralkin, you are entirely misreading my "intentions". I'm simply asking that you get confirmation that the 88th Flight appears in that episode. No one here is on a crusade against your pocket models, so I would appreciate it if you adopted a less antagonistic tone. I'm not debating the canonicity of the starfighters, simply whether we can definitely say they were in the episode. Considering how easily you received your first answer, it's a simple matter. I'm not being disruptive, nor am I ignoring anything. Cade Calrayn 02:17, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
- As for the coloring, it's the CIS and the GAR. They're droids and clones, and most of them have the same color scheme. That's not really a valid point, in my opinion. Cade Calrayn 02:20, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
- That's not true in the context of TCW. It's not like Star Wars: Clone Wars where they were all brown or any other source in which they were slate grey. In TCW, they have colors and stripes and distinctiveness, which has been acknowledged in an official capacity as marking their unit. This is not a coincidence. They have the same, distinctive stripes, across their bows. NaruHina Talk 03:38, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
- Well, I am not trying to be antagonistic about "[my] pocket models (sic)," as you call them, Cade. However, I will try to be less reactive at this point. As for what is being debated, the point—as Naruhina has mentioned—is that there are certain facts provided by LucasArts and accepted by this wiki community concerning visual information in the films and shows. These facts are being ignored (or unused in good faith) in the accusation of Original Research. I have provided burden of proof in that game pieces were direct previews of episodic material. I do not know how much plainer it can be stated, and I do not think it is appropriate to demand that the developer give more of his time to account for each and every unit when he was generous enough to give a statement collectively regarding their appearances in the series. —GethralkinHyperwave 21:37, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
- Well, it is the end of the month and I have produced reliable official source material and adhered to the tenet of this wiki's policy of pointing out where the subject of this issue is not Original Research. Since the information in the article and the cited sources are "straightforward... logical deductions based on fully attributed data that neither change the significance of the data nor require additional assumptions beyond what is in the source," and since it is "possible for any reader without specialist knowledge to understand the deductions," this article does not fall under the definition of original thought. To wit, I have shown that the SWPMTCG establishes the names of the squadrons that are identifiable by their colors in the TCW series. I have provided citation to back up the fact that the squadrons in the game are named, designed and marked (to identify them distinctly) by LucasArts for promotional preview of episodic material that immediately followed release of game expansion distribution. It then so follows that if a unit with the unique blue-striped patterns painted on it are named 88th Flight in the game, then the squadron marked with the same unique blue-striped patterns in the series are coinciding and thus are identifiable as 88th Flight. Since there has not been any specific article details that have been highlighted as suspect in regards to Original Research (other than the generalization that the flight is not verbally identified in the series), or any further arguments that soundly contradict the facts, precedents, and sources brought forth and laid out in the article and on this talk page, I will now remove the OR template as agreed upon in the first post of this topic. I may bristle at times when challenged, but please do not take this personally. Even though the issue of Original Research does not in fact apply to this article, I, however, do appreciate that editors on this wiki are using their due diligence to ensure that Wookieepedia articles adhere to high standards of publication. Thank you for your hard work and watchful eyes. —GethralkinHyperwave 19:52, July 31, 2012 (UTC)
- Well, I am not trying to be antagonistic about "[my] pocket models (sic)," as you call them, Cade. However, I will try to be less reactive at this point. As for what is being debated, the point—as Naruhina has mentioned—is that there are certain facts provided by LucasArts and accepted by this wiki community concerning visual information in the films and shows. These facts are being ignored (or unused in good faith) in the accusation of Original Research. I have provided burden of proof in that game pieces were direct previews of episodic material. I do not know how much plainer it can be stated, and I do not think it is appropriate to demand that the developer give more of his time to account for each and every unit when he was generous enough to give a statement collectively regarding their appearances in the series. —GethralkinHyperwave 21:37, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
- That's not true in the context of TCW. It's not like Star Wars: Clone Wars where they were all brown or any other source in which they were slate grey. In TCW, they have colors and stripes and distinctiveness, which has been acknowledged in an official capacity as marking their unit. This is not a coincidence. They have the same, distinctive stripes, across their bows. NaruHina Talk
- As for the coloring, it's the CIS and the GAR. They're droids and clones, and most of them have the same color scheme. That's not really a valid point, in my opinion. Cade Calrayn
- Gethralkin, you are entirely misreading my "intentions". I'm simply asking that you get confirmation that the 88th Flight appears in that episode. No one here is on a crusade against your pocket models, so I would appreciate it if you adopted a less antagonistic tone. I'm not debating the canonicity of the starfighters, simply whether we can definitely say they were in the episode. Considering how easily you received your first answer, it's a simple matter. I'm not being disruptive, nor am I ignoring anything. Cade Calrayn
- Absolutely. I can not imagine why one would say, on the one hand, that they agree with an official statement that appropriately marked units of a squadron are canon previews of actual squadrons in a series and, on the other hand, declare that there is "nothing [said] about whether or not they appear in the episode" by name. It sounds as if Cade's expectations are a bit unreasonable. As for wanting official confirmation, the Official Star Wars PocketModels website and the administration of that website is official. I had been an official envoy for the WizKids company and for the Star Wars PocketModels TCG (as well as other game lines) for several years before I was given an administrative position on the official site. The designation of being an official site for the game is not self-labeled, by the way. However, we were acknowledged as such by the Topps/WizKids company while under their contract with LucasArts. I only provided the statement of one of the developers so that this would be a non-issue. However, it appears that we are now going into a discussion of semantics that is superfluous to the point of the matter. This is the same type of argument as over the Ahsoka Tano Delta-B emblem being the Jedi insignia, and I feel that it is an argument designed to cause disruption, especially since the official statement that the Clone Wars game pieces were "based completely on the unfolding Clone Wars cartoon series... provided and approved prior to launch by Lucas Arts" was ignored in Cade's post above. —GethralkinHyperwave 23:30, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
- Well, the colors on the figures do match the fighters in the show, as can be seen from the links from the sources list. As the color schemes and the names attached to those markings were provided by LucasArts, I'd say that meets the burden of attribution. NaruHina Talk
- Gethralkin, you still have failed to produce official confirmation that the 88th Flight are the fighters seen in that particular episode. All you did was show that the material is canon. To quote from the link you posted: "As a play tester for the new sets, I can also verify that the names and colors used are canon". Nothing about whether or not they appear in the episode. Cade Calrayn
- Issue still remains. "http://swpocketmodels.com/forum/index.php?topic=4232" Who told this admin all of that? He provided no source nor any official clarification. JangFett (Talk) 13:31, August 3, 2012 (UTC)
- As someone who worked on the product, his statement is sufficient. When going for meta-sources, we don't ask authors, game developers, or others to provide statements from Leland Chee or LFL. NaruHina Talk 21:33, August 3, 2012 (UTC)
- No, it's not. That's the general issue that I am seeing. We need official clarification here from an official from Lucasfilm, not someone from a forum. I wish the poster linked a source to actually back up his words. JangFett (Talk) 21:43, August 3, 2012 (UTC)
- He's not just a poster from a forum, he's an official from the company that made the game. If we can't take his statement, then we can't take anything from the BioWare forums about TOR either. NaruHina Talk 00:42, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- We need official evidence regarding the issues in the article. Geth may have worked on the cards, but that does not give him the right to suggest what is right or wrong, especially dealing with canon. Reading what he said on the forum, unless he could supply a source (from LFL, ect) that says that the 88th Flight appeared in those episodes and/or the colors are a way of judging the actual fighters in the episodes, it does not seem attributable. JangFett (Talk) 01:18, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- What we have here is two representatives from the company giving us the evidence on a silver platter with garnish. In relation to the PocketModels, they are a reliable source. Review our policy on behind the scenes material from WP:ATT. With behind the scenes information it has to come from someone trustworthy and authoritative about the topic at hand, which these two are. The company has never been anything but trustworthy with information about the PocketModels. NaruHina Talk 01:48, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- You're misunderstanding me. I am not questioning the canonical status of the cards, I am questioning the issue regarding the colors and the fighters in the episodes. No source mentions that they appeared in the episodes, which is the main problem in the article. JangFett (Talk) 01:50, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- That was exactly what I tried to explain to Gethralkin—we're not doubting the cards themselves. We're just asking if there's any proof that the 88th Flight appears in the specific episode. Just like we needed confirmation that Satele Shan was the person who appeared in the Hope trailer. Cade Calrayn 01:56, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not misunderstanding you. The game developers, being a reliable and trustworthy source, have stated here that the model was created to reflect the appearance of the fighter from TCW and that the markings were provided by the creators of the cartoon as identification marks for fighters that were going to be in the show. These identifying marks did appear on droids in the show. That's not even inductive, it's blatant. In the case of Satele, she looked completely different in the trailer than she did in her appearance in Threat of Peace and there was no context in the trailer itself pointing to it being her. Look at Shan's talk page and you'll see me telling Mauser it was speculation, because there was no evidence. The evidence for the PoocketModels is an official statement from the company that developed the game, which was the exact same thing we confirmed Satele with. Her identity was not confirmed by LFL. NaruHina Talk 02:03, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not misunderstanding you. The game developers, being a reliable and trustworthy source, have stated here that the model was created to reflect the appearance of the fighter from TCW and that the markings were provided by the creators of the cartoon as identification marks for fighters that were going to be in the show. These identifying marks did appear on droids in the show. That's not even inductive, it's blatant. In the case of Satele, she looked completely different in the trailer than she did in her appearance in Threat of Peace and there was no context in the trailer itself pointing to it being her. Look at Shan's talk page and you'll see me telling Mauser it was speculation, because there was no evidence. The evidence for the PoocketModels is an official statement from the company that developed the game, which was the exact same thing we confirmed Satele with. Her identity was not confirmed by LFL. NaruHina Talk
- That was exactly what I tried to explain to Gethralkin—we're not doubting the cards themselves. We're just asking if there's any proof that the 88th Flight appears in the specific episode. Just like we needed confirmation that Satele Shan was the person who appeared in the Hope trailer. Cade Calrayn
- You're misunderstanding me. I am not questioning the canonical status of the cards, I am questioning the issue regarding the colors and the fighters in the episodes. No source mentions that they appeared in the episodes, which is the main problem in the article. JangFett (Talk) 01:50, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- What we have here is two representatives from the company giving us the evidence on a silver platter with garnish. In relation to the PocketModels, they are a reliable source. Review our policy on behind the scenes material from WP:ATT. With behind the scenes information it has to come from someone trustworthy and authoritative about the topic at hand, which these two are. The company has never been anything but trustworthy with information about the PocketModels. NaruHina Talk
- We need official evidence regarding the issues in the article. Geth may have worked on the cards, but that does not give him the right to suggest what is right or wrong, especially dealing with canon. Reading what he said on the forum, unless he could supply a source (from LFL, ect) that says that the 88th Flight appeared in those episodes and/or the colors are a way of judging the actual fighters in the episodes, it does not seem attributable. JangFett (Talk) 01:18, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- He's not just a poster from a forum, he's an official from the company that made the game. If we can't take his statement, then we can't take anything from the BioWare forums about TOR either. NaruHina Talk
- No, it's not. That's the general issue that I am seeing. We need official clarification here from an official from Lucasfilm, not someone from a forum. I wish the poster linked a source to actually back up his words. JangFett (Talk) 21:43, August 3, 2012 (UTC)
- As someone who worked on the product, his statement is sufficient. When going for meta-sources, we don't ask authors, game developers, or others to provide statements from Leland Chee or LFL. NaruHina Talk
- Naru, you're misreading the forum post. Gethralkin said nothing about the 88th Flight in his post, and the response was therefore unable to confirm anything about the unit specifically. He believed that we were attacking the game's canonicity as a whole, and his question reflected that. All Jang and I are asking for is a second question about the 88th Flight specifically. That's all that's at stake here. You say "The game developers... have stated here that the model was created to reflect the appearance of the fighter from TCW". Nowhere in the post does it say anything of the sort. Cade Calrayn 02:14, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- "The Clone Wars SWPM series of expansions are based completely on the unfolding Clone Wars cartoon series. The names and colors schemes were provided and approved prior to launch by Lucas Arts, and WK adjusted them accordingly immediately before production." The forum post encompasses the entire set and its pieces, including the 88th. NaruHina Talk 02:17, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- LucasArts has nothing to do with TCW. Going back to the discussion, no, the forum post did not state whether or not the 88th Flight appeared in the episodes. Cade gave a clear example of why it is important to clarify rather than assume. Currently, I see much speculation in the article and much assumptions in this talk page discussion. We are going no where and only continuing to go back and forth between the canonical status of the cards and the issue regarding the 88th Flight. I am going to state this so it could be clear—we need an official source or at least confirmation that the 88th Flight did indeed appeared in those episodes. Colors mean nothing in this case, as it is speculation. Judging from what you and Geth seem to be saying, you might as well say that Rodians that dress like Greedo are Greedo or bearded men are Kyle Katarn. The 88th Flight's appearances needs to be confirmed. JangFett (Talk) 02:46, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- That's ridiculous. Taking a Rodian to be Greedo because he is a Rodian is a completely different animal than taking combat markings to be indicative of marking a military unit, a practice that has been around for thousands of years. The colors mean everything because they aren't just colors: they are battle markings and we have confirmation that this set indicates a unit from the 88th. NaruHina Talk 02:58, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- No it's not, Naru, you need to look at the issue. If the 88th Flight appeared in those episodes, a source needs to state so. We cannot go by cards from 2008 to state whether or not the droids appeared in an episode from 2012 or so. Going by colors in this case again is out of the question. JangFett (Talk) 03:01, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- If the cards in question came out in 2008 and the episode in 2012, then you can't base your statements on the similarities. If they were released at the same time, then there would be a correlation, but not that far apart. We need direct confirmation from the individuals Gethralkin contacted. Cade Calrayn 03:07, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Jang, while I still agree, the episode in question first came out in 2008 along with the cards. Cade Calrayn 03:10, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- An episode did air in 2008 (one of the R2 episodes) and the article says the 88th Flight appeared but no source mentions this. The cards do not state so and we are strictly going by colors, which is apart of the issue. I would like to see clarification from the individuals, yes. JangFett (Talk) 03:10, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- (Edit Conflict) Ambush was the first episode of the show. From 2008. With droids that bear markings from the PocketModels expansion, as valid a source as any other, released shortly before that. These markings that were made with direction from those behind the show and intended by those creators to identify the unit. We have a statement confirming this from people involved in the project. Their subsequent appearance in the show establishes a visual continuity and, even if they just happened to recycle that character model, a droid with the 88th's established identification markings appeared in Nomad Droids too. As far as seeking out further confirmation goes, you could have sent an e-mail out into the ether with that goal by now if you ever intend to. I would have expected you to say something here about it if you had already. NaruHina Talk 03:18, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- We received a statement from a forum, although no we received no official source or any indication from where that discussion took place. The 88th Flight, as a single squadron, needs to have its episode appearances confirmed, Naru. That means we cannot continue on with the colors debate. JangFett (Talk) 03:27, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- (Edit Conflict) Ambush was the first episode of the show. From 2008. With droids that bear markings from the PocketModels expansion, as valid a source as any other, released shortly before that. These markings that were made with direction from those behind the show and intended by those creators to identify the unit. We have a statement confirming this from people involved in the project. Their subsequent appearance in the show establishes a visual continuity and, even if they just happened to recycle that character model, a droid with the 88th's established identification markings appeared in Nomad Droids too. As far as seeking out further confirmation goes, you could have sent an e-mail out into the ether with that goal by now if you ever intend to. I would have expected you to say something here about it if you had already. NaruHina Talk
- An episode did air in 2008 (one of the R2 episodes) and the article says the 88th Flight appeared but no source mentions this. The cards do not state so and we are strictly going by colors, which is apart of the issue. I would like to see clarification from the individuals, yes. JangFett (Talk) 03:10, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- If the cards in question came out in 2008 and the episode in 2012, then you can't base your statements on the similarities. If they were released at the same time, then there would be a correlation, but not that far apart. We need direct confirmation from the individuals Gethralkin contacted. Cade Calrayn
- No it's not, Naru, you need to look at the issue. If the 88th Flight appeared in those episodes, a source needs to state so. We cannot go by cards from 2008 to state whether or not the droids appeared in an episode from 2012 or so. Going by colors in this case again is out of the question. JangFett (Talk) 03:01, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- That's ridiculous. Taking a Rodian to be Greedo because he is a Rodian is a completely different animal than taking combat markings to be indicative of marking a military unit, a practice that has been around for thousands of years. The colors mean everything because they aren't just colors: they are battle markings and we have confirmation that this set indicates a unit from the 88th. NaruHina Talk
- LucasArts has nothing to do with TCW. Going back to the discussion, no, the forum post did not state whether or not the 88th Flight appeared in the episodes. Cade gave a clear example of why it is important to clarify rather than assume. Currently, I see much speculation in the article and much assumptions in this talk page discussion. We are going no where and only continuing to go back and forth between the canonical status of the cards and the issue regarding the 88th Flight. I am going to state this so it could be clear—we need an official source or at least confirmation that the 88th Flight did indeed appeared in those episodes. Colors mean nothing in this case, as it is speculation. Judging from what you and Geth seem to be saying, you might as well say that Rodians that dress like Greedo are Greedo or bearded men are Kyle Katarn. The 88th Flight's appearances needs to be confirmed. JangFett (Talk) 02:46, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- "The Clone Wars SWPM series of expansions are based completely on the unfolding Clone Wars cartoon series. The names and colors schemes were provided and approved prior to launch by Lucas Arts, and WK adjusted them accordingly immediately before production." The forum post encompasses the entire set and its pieces, including the 88th. NaruHina Talk
- Then send out for further confirmation, already. In the mean time, I've cited policy, WP:ATT, which states that we should trust the PocketModel people in the mean time. A post on a forum has been perfectly good evidence in all manner of cases in the past, from the announcement of Satele Shan's identity to Fry's intending that systems in the Atlas be named for species and planets within them. Contact the show's people. NaruHina Talk 03:42, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Naru, the burden of proof rests on the one trying to proving canonicity. You, or more likely Gethralkin (since he managed it in the first place) should be the ones to contact them, as you are attempting to prove they're in the episodes. In the meantime, the OR template should remain on the page, as you haven't proven it isn't. Cade Calrayn 03:46, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Colors, in this case again, is not good evidence and we are not judging the canonical status of the cards. JangFett (Talk) 03:47, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- First of all, I need to correct a statement I made above. Lucasfilm's TCW production team was not the only source of material for the entirety of SWPM, but the game also drew from online, platform, and PC Star Wars material (as well as from West End Games and Dark Horse sources), and therefore LucasArts was one of the involved various sources of development. However, in respects TCW material, Lucasfilm, Ltd. was the source of information for use in the game involving those expansions previewing the show. In fact, our acknowledgment of license use on the site for Clone Wars specifically cites Lucasfilm: "Star Wars PocketModel TCG © 2008 WizKids, Inc. All rights reserved. PocketModel and WizKids are trademarks of WizKids, Inc. Product shown may vary from actual product. Star Wars ©2008 Lucasfilm Ltd. & TM. All rights reserved." My statement above was in error when I referred to LucasArts as the company source of TCW material. LucasArts was a source in one case, for instance, for The Force Unleashed supplemental game pieces. That the SWPM site is an official source of Star Wars material (aside from boards presenting fan-created material, such as the Custom Creations board) should indicate that the admins of the site represented the interests of the Lucasfilm company. In fact, they were subject to non-disclosure agreements in relation to the Star Wars brandline for WizKids. There have also been occasions when the site admins have had to protect copyright issues regarding fan-produced material being offered for sale in the Trade board of the forum, removing offending content and banning the users. The point is that there was a close relationship with Lucasfilm and WizKids regarding what went into the game. There is even a video interview with the senior staff of the company that was posted on the site early on in the News sections that reveals that George Lucas himself applied his signature to approve game material. Development and design sheets were authorized by Lucasfilm based on pre-screened material from TCW episodes. Therefore, what it all boils down to is this: film, video game, cartoon material (such as TCW) was handed off to WizKids to include in the SWPM game. In the case of TCW, it was previews of upcoming TCW film and cartoon material. WizKids was told what the units they were looking at were called by the development team at Lucasfilm Ltd. and then were told to produce and distribute them. I think that the source from the playtester developer sufficiently indicates this for all SWPM material without needing to cover every single design element approval. —GethralkinHyperwave 04:28, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Once again, you have completely ignored our point and request. You continue to stress the fact that the Pocket Models are canon—we know they are. You've expressed this plenty of times. The problem here is not the canonicity of the game. It's the fact that colors and timing are not enough to say that the 88th Flight are the same fighters that appear in the episodes themselves. We're simply asking you to ask this exact question: Do the 88th Flight appear in "Ambush", "Duel of the Droids", and "Nomad Droids"? Nothing more, nothing less. Everything else is moot at this point. Please, I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying to get my point across. It seems like you've either ignored or not seen the point that Jang and I have been trying to express, and I'd like to fix that. Cade Calrayn 04:36, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Well, I haven't been trying to ignore you, but perhaps I have not understood what exactly you are asking because I thought I was answering the issue clearly. This is a basic chicken-and-egg issue where the question is, "where does the squadron's name come from, the show or a game?" Let me try to explain it this way. If the name comes from the show, then the game piece is named after the squadron appearing in the show. If the squadron is not identified in the show by someone yelling, "Look out! It's the 88th Flight!" then the name has to be established offscreen by Lucasfilm and provided to the game company. It is on record that the designers at WizKids have established that: 1) Game piece designs were taken directly from film/episode images or from models created in association with Lucasfilm, and 2) Lucasfilm controlled all the naming conventions of characters and units.[1] Any designs/markings printed on ships were taken from the episodes, and the names of those ships (or squadrons) were pre-established by the Lucasfilm TCW production team. Lucasfilm decided what they were called before they were given over to WizKids to be printed on styrene. As for the Clone Wars expansion, Porpman has supported this through his statement that the Clone Wars expansions were "based completely on the unfolding Clone Wars cartoon series."[2] Based on the design and development arrangement that Lucasfilm had with WizKids, the blue-striped Vulture droid labeled 88th Flight in the SWPM game was named by Lucasfilm and its images were taken from stills/material in TCW episodes. —GethralkinHyperwave 08:27, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Once again, you have completely ignored our point and request. You continue to stress the fact that the Pocket Models are canon—we know they are. You've expressed this plenty of times. The problem here is not the canonicity of the game. It's the fact that colors and timing are not enough to say that the 88th Flight are the same fighters that appear in the episodes themselves. We're simply asking you to ask this exact question: Do the 88th Flight appear in "Ambush", "Duel of the Droids", and "Nomad Droids"? Nothing more, nothing less. Everything else is moot at this point. Please, I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying to get my point across. It seems like you've either ignored or not seen the point that Jang and I have been trying to express, and I'd like to fix that. Cade Calrayn
- First of all, I need to correct a statement I made above. Lucasfilm's TCW production team was not the only source of material for the entirety of SWPM, but the game also drew from online, platform, and PC Star Wars material (as well as from West End Games and Dark Horse sources), and therefore LucasArts was one of the involved various sources of development. However, in respects TCW material, Lucasfilm, Ltd. was the source of information for use in the game involving those expansions previewing the show. In fact, our acknowledgment of license use on the site for Clone Wars specifically cites Lucasfilm: "Star Wars PocketModel TCG © 2008 WizKids, Inc. All rights reserved. PocketModel and WizKids are trademarks of WizKids, Inc. Product shown may vary from actual product. Star Wars ©2008 Lucasfilm Ltd. & TM. All rights reserved." My statement above was in error when I referred to LucasArts as the company source of TCW material. LucasArts was a source in one case, for instance, for The Force Unleashed supplemental game pieces. That the SWPM site is an official source of Star Wars material (aside from boards presenting fan-created material, such as the Custom Creations board) should indicate that the admins of the site represented the interests of the Lucasfilm company. In fact, they were subject to non-disclosure agreements in relation to the Star Wars brandline for WizKids. There have also been occasions when the site admins have had to protect copyright issues regarding fan-produced material being offered for sale in the Trade board of the forum, removing offending content and banning the users. The point is that there was a close relationship with Lucasfilm and WizKids regarding what went into the game. There is even a video interview with the senior staff of the company that was posted on the site early on in the News sections that reveals that George Lucas himself applied his signature to approve game material. Development and design sheets were authorized by Lucasfilm based on pre-screened material from TCW episodes. Therefore, what it all boils down to is this: film, video game, cartoon material (such as TCW) was handed off to WizKids to include in the SWPM game. In the case of TCW, it was previews of upcoming TCW film and cartoon material. WizKids was told what the units they were looking at were called by the development team at Lucasfilm Ltd. and then were told to produce and distribute them. I think that the source from the playtester developer sufficiently indicates this for all SWPM material without needing to cover every single design element approval. —GethralkinHyperwave 04:28, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Colors, in this case again, is not good evidence and we are not judging the canonical status of the cards. JangFett (Talk) 03:47, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Naru, the burden of proof rests on the one trying to proving canonicity. You, or more likely Gethralkin (since he managed it in the first place) should be the ones to contact them, as you are attempting to prove they're in the episodes. In the meantime, the OR template should remain on the page, as you haven't proven it isn't. Cade Calrayn
- This has gone on far enough. Gethralkin, just answer their question. Does this squadron appear in the episodes listed on the page? If so, what source backs this up? That's all that's being asked of you. Trak Nar Ramble on 04:38, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, the squadron appears in the episodes listed. As explained above, the game pieces of the squadron would not have been printed and named otherwise because the episodes were the source material (via scripts, images, LFL production notes) for the game pieces. To reiterate my response above, the designers were given images from the show and told by Lucasfilm what they were called. The game's cards and miniatures were designed and published using that info. This has been the arrangement from the beginning.[3] Does that help clear things up? The gentleman whose screenname is Porpman on the SWPM site was a preview writer at WizKids and one of the quality control playtesters working at identifying conflicts that arose in game mechanics during finalization of product material. I emailed him to post a comment on the SWPM forum to verify that the source of images on the game cards and units came from TCW episodes. —GethralkinHyperwave 08:27, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you. That's all I needed to know. Once you get Porpman's comment, feel free to put it here on a subpage as a source. :) Trak Nar Ramble on 08:35, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- I am not sure what you mean by placing his comment as a source on a subpage. Do you mean a subpage to this talk page? In any case, here it is:
- "I can verify as a preview writer, and from my interactions with WizKids during the periods up to and during new set releases, that the materials were provided to WK by Lucas in advance for the creation of new units and cards for new expansions. The Clone Wars SWPM series of expansions are based completely on the unfolding Clone Wars cartoon series. The names and colors schemes were provided and approved prior to launch by Lucas Arts (sic), and WK adjusted them accordingly immediately before production. As a play tester for the new sets, I can also verify that the names and colors used are canon (assuming there were no errors in design or production), and that Lucas even protected the identity of unit and card names by not releasing the real ones until immediately before production; the play test materials that I had to use were often alias names created by WK (or provided by Lucas) until the real names became available because of this." —Porpman [4]
- —GethralkinHyperwave 09:11, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Gethralkin, judging from the discussion I had with Trak and Jang last night, I'm fairly certain she meant the answer to the more specific question we asked of you: please ask Porpman or a similarly-privileged individual if they can confirm the 88th Flight appears in the episodes in question, not the show as a whole. Your first question was an attempt to verify the legitimacy of the Pocket Models, as you misread our intent when this discussion began (quite understandably, looking back at the early discussion). Please try and get an answer, and we can settle this issue once and for all on a pleasant note. Cade Calrayn 16:27, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- I am not sure what you mean by placing his comment as a source on a subpage. Do you mean a subpage to this talk page? In any case, here it is:
- Thank you. That's all I needed to know. Once you get Porpman's comment, feel free to put it here on a subpage as a source. :) Trak Nar Ramble on 08:35, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, the squadron appears in the episodes listed. As explained above, the game pieces of the squadron would not have been printed and named otherwise because the episodes were the source material (via scripts, images, LFL production notes) for the game pieces. To reiterate my response above, the designers were given images from the show and told by Lucasfilm what they were called. The game's cards and miniatures were designed and published using that info. This has been the arrangement from the beginning.[3] Does that help clear things up? The gentleman whose screenname is Porpman on the SWPM site was a preview writer at WizKids and one of the quality control playtesters working at identifying conflicts that arose in game mechanics during finalization of product material. I emailed him to post a comment on the SWPM forum to verify that the source of images on the game cards and units came from TCW episodes. —GethralkinHyperwave 08:27, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
- My conclusion from the lack of evidence presented so far is that there is no confirmation that the 88th Flight appeared in the episodes in question. I will be removing that unverified information from the site soon if no one can provide official confirmation. CC7567 (talk) 22:20, August 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Forgive my absence. I have been dealing with bottle-necked internet connectivity. Trak Nar was satisfied, as far as I could tell, with the evidence I presented. The squadrons in the episodes were the ones provided as material for the game. Lucasfilm provided the SWPM team the names to identify the squadrons appearing in the series. Any time you see Vulture droids in TCW (during the Clone Wars period) with the markings matching this squadron, you will know that they are the 88th Flight because it is one of the LFL-named squadrons given to SWPM developers. The problem with the arguments above is that they appear to ignore one of WP's core tenet corollaries: that using "logical deductions[,] based on fully attributed data," "is not original research." Furthermore, it states that "[i]t should be possible for any reader without specialist knowledge to understand the deductions." I am not providing anything that requires stretches of deduction beyond what is reasonable, or as outlined in WP:ATT. In fact, I am providing that LFL made assertions that all material comes from the filmed episodes. It isn't a matter of canon, but a matter of LFL naming the painted squadrons they filmed and giving the names to SWPM to make game pieces. So, can anyone specifically state from the sources (please quote from both the video and the posted statement) why this logic provided for in WP:ATT does not work for you? Otherwise, I am with NaruHina and Trak Nar on this one. —GethralkinHyperwave 04:29, August 18, 2012 (UTC)
- As far as I know, Trak never said she was with you, Gethralkin, but that's beside the point. As I asked before: Please just ask the individual you questioned previously whether or not the 88th Flight was created for the episodes in question! Then we can drop this and move on, and the matter of original research will be resolved. All your source has stated is that the Pocket Models are canon, because you asked the wrong question assuming that we were debating the canonicity of the Pocket Models as a whole. This argument is just about the 88th Flight itself. Cade Calrayn 17:36, August 18, 2012 (UTC)
- Trak definitely stated, "Thank you. That's all I needed to know." Perhaps you did not see that comment above. As for canonicity, that was an issue that JangFett was focusing on (if you read Jang's comments above, you will see that), and therefore has been addressed as well. In answer to you again, however, the SWPM game establishes names for all appearances of the squadrons in the series that had a representative unit in the game. Any squadrons (including 88th Flight) appearing in the episodes marked with color schemes was previously identified by name in the game. I have given both a posted comment from a former representative of the company other than myself and video interviews from the creators concerning the source of these design materials. Through both of these sources, it is fairly explained that the names and color schemes of units come from LFL, and—in the case of the TCW units—the material from LFL was exclusively from TCW episode material. That the game establishes what the TCW squadrons are called based on their color schemes was sanctioned by LFL. If you are going to refute the evidence, please quote from the video and my fellow rep's post what your disagreement is instead of repeating your objection without a sound argument of why WP:ATT's "What is not original research?" logic should not apply. —GethralkinHyperwave 01:51, August 23, 2012 (UTC)
- As far as I know, Trak never said she was with you, Gethralkin, but that's beside the point. As I asked before: Please just ask the individual you questioned previously whether or not the 88th Flight was created for the episodes in question! Then we can drop this and move on, and the matter of original research will be resolved. All your source has stated is that the Pocket Models are canon, because you asked the wrong question assuming that we were debating the canonicity of the Pocket Models as a whole. This argument is just about the 88th Flight itself. Cade Calrayn
- Forgive my absence. I have been dealing with bottle-necked internet connectivity. Trak Nar was satisfied, as far as I could tell, with the evidence I presented. The squadrons in the episodes were the ones provided as material for the game. Lucasfilm provided the SWPM team the names to identify the squadrons appearing in the series. Any time you see Vulture droids in TCW (during the Clone Wars period) with the markings matching this squadron, you will know that they are the 88th Flight because it is one of the LFL-named squadrons given to SWPM developers. The problem with the arguments above is that they appear to ignore one of WP's core tenet corollaries: that using "logical deductions[,] based on fully attributed data," "is not original research." Furthermore, it states that "[i]t should be possible for any reader without specialist knowledge to understand the deductions." I am not providing anything that requires stretches of deduction beyond what is reasonable, or as outlined in WP:ATT. In fact, I am providing that LFL made assertions that all material comes from the filmed episodes. It isn't a matter of canon, but a matter of LFL naming the painted squadrons they filmed and giving the names to SWPM to make game pieces. So, can anyone specifically state from the sources (please quote from both the video and the posted statement) why this logic provided for in WP:ATT does not work for you? Otherwise, I am with NaruHina and Trak Nar on this one. —GethralkinHyperwave 04:29, August 18, 2012 (UTC)
Clean up editing
I will be fixing the article to bring it up to standard according to MoS. If you have any suggestions to make it better, please post them here. Thank you. —GethralkinHyperwave 19:59, July 31, 2012 (UTC)
- I have finished editing the article as best I can (with the limited time that I have) and have removed the Inuse and Cleanup templates. —GethralkinHyperwave 09:20, August 3, 2012 (UTC)
Clean up template addition
Gethralkin above stated that the Cleanup template was removed, timestamped for over 7 years ago. Can I ask why it has been added again, and what specifically needs to be cleaned up? —Akina Speranza Holotable 02:43, November 25, 2019 (UTC)
Nomad Droids
How do we know this was the vulture droid squadron at the Battle of Patitite Pattuna?--172.58.47.13 04:43, 9 November 2022 (UTC)