Forum:TC:SkyeWalkers clones

This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or, if the page was deleted, in the Senate Hall rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was No consensus. Imperators II^(Talk) 08:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Unlike Luuke Skywalker, Ysanne Isard (clone), or other similar clones, these three clones only appear in a lab vat shortly before vats are destroyed and they are never activated, or even may not be ready to be activated when destroyed. In my opinion, these are a mere plot device rather than actual characters warranting their respective pages, which are currently carbon-copies of each other, and their biographies mostly document events that do not directly involve the clones themselves. Their descriptive information in the infobox is also based on the assumption that they share the same traits as the original templates, not explicitly described in the story. Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 16:26, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Anakin Skywalker (clone) (talk - history - links - logs - delete - protect)

Delete

1. Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 16:26, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Rsand 30 (talk) 16:30, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
3. —spookywilloww^talk 16:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

   NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 16:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

   I'm cloning my vote. NBDani (they/them)^{Yeager's Repairs} 16:50, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

   I'm attempting to clone Dani's vote. OOM 224 (he/him) 17:27, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

   Rakhsh (talk) 17:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

4. Tommy-Macaroni (he/they) 18:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Keep

Legends Lover (talk) 17:43, 17 April 2024 (UTC) (Vote struck, reason: Per policy: General rules #3 -- Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 18:45, 17 April 2024 (UTC))

1. Even though they're not really characters, they're relevant enough to the plot that I think they should be kept.Mitth'raw'nuruodo (clone) is also a precedent for unactivated clones having pages. CometSmudge (talk) 20:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
2. While the clones never appear outside of the vats, they are central to the plot of Skyewalkers. A precedent has been set by the article for the clone of thrawn which is only seen in a vat and is merely a plot device. The content of these articles do pertain to the clones themselves because it covers the origins, motive, purpose, and the method of their creation. The traits in the infobox is accurate because they are exact clones of their templates, clones have the same traits as their prime. The clones are meant to pass of as the original characters, all their traits are the same. Logan.Likes.Legends (talk) 21:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

   I do want to note that "same traits" is never entirely applicable—gender should never be assumed off purely physical traits, so if these pages remain after TC or not, clones cannot be assumed to have the same gender as the individual they were cloned after.—spookywilloww^talk 21:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

   In that case the pages should be edited, not deletedLogan.Likes.Legends (talk) 21:48, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

3. I think there's grounds to keep per above and below in comments, provided they are also edited to address the above issues raised Lewisr (talk) 22:38, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Reminds me a lot of Mitth'raw'nuruodo (clone) Editoronthewiki (talk) 00:37, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Imperators II^(Talk) 07:23, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
6. I destroyed my vote. NBDani (they/them)^{Yeager's Repairs} 19:10, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
7. I am altering the deal,… NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 10:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
8. JMAS ^{Hey, it's me!} 05:46, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Comments

• Not really sure I get the delete rationale for these. I'm going to ignore the latter half of Anil's reasoning above because "this article has a lot of information that shouldn't really be on it" is not reason enough to delete the article. What's left is the argument about the clones not having been activated - to which I'd counter that we have an article on the apparently-never-activated clone of Thrawn, and IIRC also at least one article about an unborn-yet natural being (granted, not the exact same thing as an unactivated clone, but in some sense similar still imo) - and the argument that "these are a mere plot device rather than actual characters warranting their respective pages". Not sure what is meant by "mere plot device" here? And as for them being actual characters warranting their respective pages, on these articles alone I'm seeing plenty of unique information relevant to them, and looks like we get some significant reactions from Anakin and Obi-Wan to these clones. To me it feels like that makes them notable enough to get pages of their own. Imperators II^(Talk) 20:11, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
  • I agree, if the articles have superfluous information, then they should be edited, not deleted outright. And even then, everything in the article is completely relevant to the context of the clones' creation and purposeLogan.Likes.Legends (talk) 21:43, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
  • The latter half alone is indeed not enough reason for deletion, I just wanted to to clarify that all those physical traits, etc. are not specified in the book and therefore are not unique information relevant to the clones. About the clone of Thrawn, I think that's a bit different case in terms of notability with the amount of details and history, but more importantly, I believe Vision of the Future treats the clone more like an individual even though that clone is also not activated, but the SkyeWalkers clones are referred to as "mindless meat" that did not possess consciousness yet and were still to be processed. In a way, based on the narrative in the story, keeping the pages resembles having a page and populating Biography and Skills and abilities sections for an unborn embryo, in my humble opinion. Vision of the Future, however, discusses the physical traits, intelligence, innocence, and even would-be leadership skills of the Thrawn clone that can be documented on a page of its own. Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 00:35, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
    • Zeta directly discusses that all of the Jedi's memories and skills will be transferred to the clones. They started as mindless meat, but Zeta finished scanning their minds and moved to kill the Jedi. The skills and personality of the Thrawn clone is mere speculation both in and out of universe since the clone never woke up.Logan.Likes.Legends (talk) 01:04, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
      • Yes, but they were still "mindless meat" when the vats were destroyed. On the other hand, in-universe speculation is still worth noting along with the factual information, imo. Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 01:44, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
        • The characters in the Visions of the Future duology speculate what traits the Thrawn clone will have, Zeta explains to the Jedi what traits their clones will have.Logan.Likes.Legends (talk) 04:56, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
    • Adren was the article on an unborn-at-the-time child that I was trying to remember. So yeah, precedent for that too. Imperators II^(Talk) 07:22, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
• For what it's worth, we don't have pages for the Moff Gideon clones in The Mandalorian, they're an important plot point but spend all their time inside tanks. Rsand 30 (talk) 11:35, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
  • But for these Jedi clones we get entire descriptions on what their purpose is and what their traits will be once they are born just like the Thrawn cloneLogan.Likes.Legends (talk) 16:37, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
  • I personally don't think Gideon clones should have their own article as well, but to be fair, I'd say we know even more about those clones' capabilities and purpose along with physical traits, and they (or at least one of them) showed a degree of consciousness. Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 17:14, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Obi-Wan Kenobi (clone) (talk - history - links - logs - delete - protect)

Delete

1. Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 16:26, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Rsand 30 (talk) 16:30, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
3. —spookywilloww^talk 16:38, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

   NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 16:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

   I'm cloning my vote. NBDani (they/them)^{Yeager's Repairs} 16:50, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

   I'm attempting to clone Dani's vote? OOM 224 (he/him) 17:27, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

   Rakhsh (talk) 17:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

4. Tommy-Macaroni (he/they) 18:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

   I destroyed my vote. NBDani (they/them)^{Yeager's Repairs} 19:10, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Keep

Legends Lover (talk) 17:43, 17 April 2024 (UTC) (Vote struck, reason: Per policy: General rules #3 -- Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 18:45, 17 April 2024 (UTC))

1. CometSmudge (talk) 20:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Logan.Likes.Legends (talk) 21:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lewisr (talk) 22:38, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Per above Editoronthewiki (talk) 00:37, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Imperators II^(Talk) 07:23, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
6. …, pray that I don't alter it any further. NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 10:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
7. So many innocent votes.....NBDani (they/them)^{Yeager's Repairs} 12:10, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
8. JMAS ^{Hey, it's me!} 05:46, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Comments

Halagad Ventor (clone) (talk - history - links - logs - delete - protect)

Delete

1. Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 16:26, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Rsand 30 (talk) 16:30, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
3. —spookywilloww^talk 16:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

   NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 16:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

   I'm cloning my vote. NBDani (they/them)^{Yeager's Repairs} 16:50, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

   I'm cloning Dani's vote?! OOM 224 (he/him) 17:27, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

   Rakhsh (talk) 17:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

4. Tommy-Macaroni (he/they) 18:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Keep

Legends Lover (talk) 17:43, 17 April 2024 (UTC) (Vote struck, reason: Per policy: General rules #3 -- Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 18:45, 17 April 2024 (UTC))

1. CometSmudge (talk) 20:14, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Logan.Likes.Legends (talk) 21:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lewisr (talk) 22:38, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Per above Editoronthewiki (talk) 00:37, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Imperators II^(Talk) 07:23, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
6. I destroyed my vote. NBDani (they/them)^{Yeager's Repairs} 19:10, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
7. NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 10:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
8. JMAS ^{Hey, it's me!} 05:46, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Comments