Forum:TC:Galen Marek (clone)

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This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or, if the page was deleted, in the Senate Hall rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was Keep. Grunny (talk) 13:09, November 7, 2010 (UTC)

Galen Marek (clone)

It's been made clear that the main character is the real clone and contains the real Galen Marek's personality, memories, and feelings, so the content should just be merged into the Galen Marek page. Palpatine's "real" clones didn't get separate articles because they were the "real" Palpatine in a different body.--ID-21 Dolphin DolphinJedi(Talk) 01:04, October 31, 2010 (UTC)

Keep

  1. But if the soul wasn't transferred, then I feel it counts as a separate being. The other things are merely physical, chemical. I say keep. I'm still waiting for the game to install on my PC though, maybe tonight. :) MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 01:31, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
    Exactly. The only reason Palpatine's clones do not have their own pages is because they were essentially "blank slates" for Palpatine to transfer his soul into. It's different with Starkiller's clone. He may have Marek's memories, but so did all of the other clones as well. If the soul wasn't transferred, than the player character in TFU II is not the "real" Starkiller, just a different version of him. 71.233.198.0 02:52, October 31, 2010 (UTC)JRT2010 (Vote struck, reason: Per policy: Please log in to vote -- Grunny (talk) 03:13, October 31, 2010 (UTC))
  2. The clones of Palpatine are different as Palpatine transferred his consciousness to a new body, so they are Palpatine. Galen Marek's clone has regained Galen Marek's personality and memories, but he is not the original Galen Marek. Grunny (talk) 03:15, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
  3. Exactly. The only reason Palpatine's clones do not have their own pages is because they were essentially "blank slates" for Palpatine to transfer his soul into. It's different with Starkiller's clone. He may have Marek's memories, but so did all of the other clones as well. If the soul wasn't transferred, than the player character in TFU II is not the "real" Starkiller, just a different version of him. (Sorry about that, forgot to sign in.) JRT2010 03:27, October 31, 2010 (UTC)JRT2010
  4. Per the above. - JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 03:38, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
  5. Separate individual, clone or not. –Tm_T (Talk) 13:17, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
  6. Per Grunny. That said, from just having read the novel (I don't know what the game says on the matter), there's a possibility that this guy actually is the original Galen, and not a clone. But until a source confirms that, there's nothing we can do. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 14:58, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
  7. I haven't read TFU II (until now), but a clone is an individual. If we delete this article, we have to delete all articles about clone troopers or Grodin Tierce's clone. Clone Commander Lee Talk 15:45, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
  8. Per Grunny, JJGM, and Tim. Corellian PremierAll along the watchtower 17:35, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
  9. Grand Moff Tranner Imperial Department of Military Research (Comlink) 17:42, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
  10. I trust Grunny's explanation. 1358 (Talk) 18:00, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
  11. The argument to delete doesn't make any sense. He is a separate being from the original Galen. I point to Spar as an example. He inherited the memories of Jango Fett much like the Clone did from Galen. Spar still lived his own life, he's not just an footnote on Jango's page. Furthermore until it's directly stated by a cannon source that he's the real Galen then wouldn't deleting the Clone's page be pure speculation and be in violation of Wookieepedia's policies? Dylax 03:47, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
    Darth Adonis 03:56, November 1, 2010 (UTC) (Vote struck, reason: Per policy: Fewer than 50 mainspace edits -- Grunny (talk) 04:16, November 1, 2010 (UTC))
  12. This is essentially the same situation as Jango Fett and Spar. And per my reasoning on the talk page. No confirmation one way or another. Darth Trayus(Trayus Academy) 05:07, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
  13. I agree with Grunny's assessment that this clone is NOT like the Palpatine clones: Palpatine literally and voluntarily transferred his very mind and soul into his new bodies; this clone merely retains genetic memories and random experiences, all of which are seperate from his own memories and experiences (department of redundancy department, lol). Jensaarai 06:42, November 2, 2010 (UTC)
  14. Per Grunny Toprawa and Ralltiir 21:52, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
  15. Considering all the evidence from this page and from all the TFU media itself, I have to vote for keep. --Darth Praxus SithEmblem-Traced-TORkit (Did somebody order a miracle?) 03:07, November 5, 2010 (UTC)
  16. While many of the characters act as though this Starkiller clone is the same character as the original Galen, one of the the key story elements is that the protagonist acknowledges a distinct difference between himself and his template. SinisterSamurai 03:18, November 6, 2010 (UTC)
  17. Separate character in my book. OLIOSTER (talk) 03:22, November 6, 2010 (UTC)
  18. Per Grunny and Trayus. CC7567 (talk) 19:18, November 6, 2010 (UTC)
  19. Uh-uh. Unless and until we know that it's the same guy as in the first one, the second article is necessary. I'm frankly surprised that people with the guts and sense to make this article exist. -MPK, Free Man 22:24, November 6, 2010 (UTC)
  20. "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." Regardless of what you believe about the real world, in Star Wars, individuals are more than just the sum of their personalities, memories and feelings. Unless we have evidence that it's the same "luminous being" in the clone (like we have for the clone of Palpatine), it's not the same person. jSarek 11:09, November 7, 2010 (UTC)

Kill

  1. The personality, memories and feelings are what comprises a consciousness. Clones that had memories and personalities of the original Marek were considered failures and eliminated. Thus, his soul kept manifesting until he finally escaped. In the Distant Thunder cutscenes, Vader implies that only one clone is activated at a time. When Marek escaped Kamino, Vader awoke The Dark Apprentice clone. Since Marek's soul was in the new body, the Dark clone did not accumulate the memories, and was thus a success. --Doctor Kermit(Complain.) 03:47, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
  2. In addition, if we remove this article, we can consolidate the info into the real Galen Marek article and improve the quality of said article, perhaps as a project.--ID-21 Dolphin DolphinJedi(Talk) 13:10, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
  3. Based on the deducted notion that this is the same Galen Marek from the first game, resurrected via SCIENCE! and Force-hoodoo. This determination was arrived at via meticulous calculation using TV Tropes' Sorting Algorithm Of Deadness. My analysis resulted in a value of 2.111 repeating, leading me to this inescapable fact. Derp. DD97Which bear is best? 05:05, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

Konfused

  1. AKA "neutral". I haven't played the game or read the novel or graphic novel, so I don't pretend to know what's going on here. I'll let those who know of which they speak make the call. Master Jonathan New Jedi Order (Jedi Council Chambers) 14:57, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
    Per MJ. I have no idea what this is about. :P 1358 (Talk) 15:34, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
    • If neither of you know what's going on, why are you even voting on this thread? There's no need for this voting option - if it could even be called a "voting option." Grand Moff Tranner Imperial Department of Military Research (Comlink) 17:42, October 31, 2010 (UTC)

Komment

@Doctor Kermit - First of all, the failed clones weren't technically "eliminated" since they're the ones who fight the player character in the last level. Second, how would you know that the original Starkiller's soul manifested itself in the clone that escaped? Where does it say that Marek's soul tried to restore itself in any of the other clones before the player character? It didn't say anything like that in the game or the novel. Third, yes the Dark Apprentice did accumulate the same kind of memories that the player character and all of the other clones had. He even told Vader in the Distant Thunder scenes, "I have memories, are they mine?" He even may have initially had the same feelings since he first asked where Juno was when he was activated. The fact that the Dark Apprentice did indeed have Marek's memories eliminates your justifications. JRT2010 04:03, October 31, 2010 (UTC)JRT2010

  • If you read the novel, you'll see countless times where he remembers very precise events of the past, including many quotes said by other characters. The other clones only have very vgue memories.--ID-21 Dolphin DolphinJedi(Talk) 13:08, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
    • Yeah, but that's not surprising. Vader did say it was a side effect of the cloning process and the memory flashes used to train him. How do you know the Dark Apprentice only had "vague" memories? We never got a full explanation. All he said were things like - "I have memories...are they mine?" or "I can hear his thoughts...I have his dreams." It is a little vague, but that's no reason to assume that he remembers Marek's life any less than the player character. JRT2010 19:53, October 31, 2010 (UTC)JRT2010
    • As for the other clones having only vague memories, we can't know exactly how well they remembered Marek's life. Vader said that they all had the same problems as the player character and the Dark Apprentice, that other clones made it far only to fail because they couldn't escape from Marek's memories. That's all we really know. We don't know if they remembered Marek's life less or as much as the player character. JRT2010 20:02, October 31, 2010 (UTC)JRT2010